SAM-01 Smoke and Mirrors

[Norvin_Green]

I'm with Glare on tech front. It makes good use of our trait as well as marble. The only trouble I see about building it in Mezh is the low hammer output. Right now it has 3 base hammers and no Confuciansim or library. What that means is we should at least try and get to 8 base hammers and spread Confu here. That would cut the build time from 66ish turns to 24ish. We can pre-chop a forest or two to help speed things along. We also have the issue of that barb galley that is going to take out our clams.
Should we slot the Hagia in to Svet? It will have some decent hammers eventually.

 

[Whosit]

Yeah, I was thinking Svetlograd could take a go at the Hagia. Since there's a worker on the way, we can have the town up and running in, oh, 20 turns or so. May or may not get it, but I don't consider it a critical wonder for us right now. If we get it, great, otherwise, we get some gold.

If we can steal the barbarian workers to the south, they can help build up the town.

 

[Glare Seethe]

Oh man, that garrison in Vilcabamba. That is coming for Svetlograd for sure. I don't think I've ever seen the AI use siege against barb cities, they usually just send a bunch of swords or something. I really hope I'm wrong but we desperately need more units in Svetlograd, and personally I would whip walls in there ASAP, although he has enough catapults that he could attack immediately and easily win, even with walls.

Umm, we can beg 20g from Napoleon. I tried it and he gives it to us (should I not have tried it, by the way? Not sure if that counts as a play, but I didn't hit enter and didn't do anything else). That at least buys us 10 turns of peace on the west. Still, I would not pull any units out of Magnitogorsk.

Out of our techs I would only want to trade away Alphabet at the moment. Huayna will give us 60g for it which is probably not worth it, although maybe if we gift it to him (then trade it for HBR with Nappy) he'll be bumped up to Pleased and we can avoid a war. Of course he still declares at Pleased, but it'll take some bad luck for it to happen and since he's not in WHEOOHRN right now we are safe from those annoying 'AI declares despite Pleased/Friendly status cause he started preparing when Cautious' attacks.

But I haven't tried this, maybe he won't go to Pleased. We don't really need HBR but it'll bump up our power a bit and horse archers can cross our empire quicker - and we do need troops on both fronts. So maybe making the aforementioned Alphabet trade with both leaders is good.

Otherwise we are looking good. Some tiles need to be shuffled around in some cities (e.g. in Magnitogorsk, working the plains farm that has just completed instead of the grassland). Also, markets in Stalingrad and especially Moscow. If one more city gets Confucianism a market in Moscow nets us +3gpt.

 

[Glare Seethe]

I suggest that we switch production in Novosibirsk from Chichen Itza to The Hagia Sophia. We shouldn't built it in Svetlograd cause that city's underdeveloped and possibly will soon be under attack. Since we have marble it's more efficient to go for HS than CI whether we get the actual wonder or just the gold.

edit: Oh yeah, if we gift Alpha to Huayna and he goes to Pleased we can immediately beg him for his gold and he'll probably give it to us, thus ensuring 10 turns of peace in the east. That's in effect trading Alpha for 60g but gaining a positive diplo modifier in the process - great deal. But that's only if he goes to Pleased and assuming he'll give us all 60g if we ask. Could be safer to ask for 30-40g instead, still a great deal for us since it buys us lots of time.

edit2: Norvin makes a good point about the hammer situation in Mezh, but that's a solid plan to get it going. We would have to actually build a missionary, however, since religion can't auto-spread into cities that already have a religion. I probably should've waited before bulbing Theology to reduce the chances of it being founded in Mezh - would have been better in Elektrogorsk or something. Anyway, we'll also want National Epic here after TGL is done so it has quite a few things to build before it can start pumping out Great Scientists.

edit3: We can trade silver to Huayna for gems or 3gpt. We could throw in our crab or deer or something too, we don't need the health really, we have plenty of it already. So how about silver + deer for gems and 3gpt?

 

[Norvin_Green]

Turn 0 (490 a.d.)

Make a few build and city swaps. Plug in a missionary in Stalingrad (the library will net us 1 bpt) in the hopes of getting HC to a better frame of mind about us. In Archangel use the silver mine to boost commerce, it reduces LH to 24 turns AND cuts a turn off of Aesthetics (switched tech path). Whip granaries in Mezh & Elek. Move some troops toward Svetlograd but if HC declares we can kiss that city good-bye. Make the silver for gems trade with HC. Whack “enter”.

Things that worry me:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Turn 1 (505 a.d.)

Queue a library in Mezh and a CH in Elek. Adjust ep’s to HC (6 of 8)


Turn 2 (520 a.d.)

Beg 4 gold from Nappy. Our western front is secure for 10 turns. Now what to do about the east?

Spoiler :

Turn 3 (535 a.d.)

Moscow – worker > market
Karachev – whip CH (2 pop)

Turn 4 (550 a.d.)

Karachev builds a temple. One extra happy face & 2 per turn. 3 barb archers are coming towards Svetlana.

Spoiler :

Turn 5 (565 a.d.)

The barb archers temporarily retreat.

Spoiler :

HC has even more troops in Vilca.

Spoiler :

Turn 6 (580 a.d.)

Calm before the storm?

Turn 7 (595 a.d.)

Our missionary gets to HC’s land. Let’s hope he’s in time.

Spoiler :

Turn 8 (610 a.d.)

Still not much. Magna starts a sword.

Turn 9 (625 a.d.)

The barbs are dancing back and forth by Svetlana. I guess they figure maybe we’ll leave the city empty or something.

Turn 10 (640 a.d.)

Our missionary spreads Confucianism to HC in Ollantaytambo. Let’s convert next turn, ok?

Spoiler :

Turn 11 (655 a.d.)

A good turn as Aesthetics is completed and its 8 turns until Literature. HC joins the Confucian ranks.

The barb galley returns and parks on our clams.

Spoiler :

Turn 12 (670 a.d.)

Moscow is working the plains farm and an unimproved grass so a 2 pop whip finishes the market. The barb galley pillages the clams.

Turn 13 (685 a.d.)

Moscow – market > monastery (10% science plus 2 )

Turn 14 (700 a.d.)

Quiet.

Turn 15 (715 a.d.)

Svetlograd completes a granary and can build a worker in 8 (for Elek). Will whip as there is enough food here for now.

Turn 16 (730 a.d.)

Whip a lighthouse in Archangel.


Turn 17 (745 a.d.)

Napoleon comes a knockin’. He wants Theology for Calendar + 140 gold. I check and see if there is anything else we can get from him and we can’t. I decide to take the deal. Maybe we can go for the MoM (forget that as the next turn HC builds it). After the deal an AP vote comes up between us and the Napster. I hesitate but vote for SAM-01. I go to HC and swap Theo for Construction and 90 gold.
Start a CH in Svetlograd.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Turn 18 (760 a.d.)

Literature is finished. Mezh immediately starts on TGL (27 turns). There is a Confu missionary available next turn to hopefully add an additional 25% to our hammer production. Right now its base is 8 but when the chop comes in it will drop to 7. Not sure if its more efficient to chop more or slash jungle and mine eastern hill. Probably chop.

HC leans towards Nappy.

Techs from this round:

Spoiler :

Mezh starting on TGL:

Spoiler :

Roster:

Xanthus (up)
Whosit (on deck)
Dave Hartwyck
Glare Seethe
radiofreestl
Norvin Green (just played)

Save attached:

 

[Glare Seethe]

Looks good Norvin.

How about the Heroic Epic in Magnitogorsk? We don't have a better site at the moment and it will help us catch up in units. Garrison in Svetlograd looks a lot more reassuring now. We might want to have a settler there for when we take the barb city so we can settle St. Petersburg immediately. I still think Huayna's building up for us, but once he goes Pleased he might shift attention to Olmec.

I would trade our silver for silk from Napoleon. We won't lose any happiness since it's one happy resource for another and we don't have forges yet, but we can start racking up "We appreciate the years..." diplo boost with Nappy (and we need it cause we now have a Close Borders negative modifier) and we have another silver down by Novosibirsk we can hook up anyway. I'd also trade our crab for his 6gpt, and our deer to Huayna for his 4gpt, we don't need the health and it'll allow us to bump up the slider.

How about The Parthenon in Karachev after it finishes the workboat and a monastery? Although maybe it'd be wiser to build a galley to prevent future seafood pillages.

I agree with Metal Casting next. Afterwards maybe Machinery for crossbows and better defence. The downside to Machinery is that it prevents a Liberalism bulb (since it opens up Optics). However, the tech pace in this game is so slow that I don't think we are in danger of losing Lib. And we won't generate enough scientists in the near future for it - maybe one or two to bulb Education. Then self-research Liberalism and we can delay it for probably a long time. We'll have to see how things develop, of course, but taking Military Tradition or even Rifling doesn't look unplausible to me at the moment.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Good morning team . I'm fairly pleased with how the set went last night. If Confucianism spreads in Karachev it will help a lot. I have a few ideas for city builds and techs. Here goes -
Stalingrad - stagnate and run a priest spec which will reduce our next GP from 38 to 25 turns. Build the Hagia here. It will complete in 19 turns and help us with our limited amount of workers plus we'll get the cash from the incomplete build in Novosibirisk. I think we would have been better off building farms here than cottages. Moscow can build spies until we want it to build the Spiral Minaret. Switch Novosibirisk to workers. It will make one every 18 turns. Its a long time but if we snag the Hagia we won't need them as quickly. Karachev can build a market, monastery & LH. Elek needs a CH and barracks. In Magnitogorsk Glare wants the HE and I agree. I would wait IF we decide to build Hagia in Stalingrad (we still need more troops). Then after the HE if its still around why not try to build the Parth in Magnitogorsk? In Archangel a market, library & walls. Mezhdurechensk after the GL can go CH + LH.
For techs what do you guys think about Paper? Here's my logic (such as it is). We can get started on the UoS in Mezhdurechensk as it will take some time with no stone. By running the priest specialist in Stalingrad we will get another GP in 25 turns (slight chance of an engineer here if we build Hagia but that wouldn't be so bad would it?) If it is a Prophet we can bulb DR (we would need to pick up Monarchy in trade or tech it ourselves and if my great person tech preference chart is correct) which allows Moscow to get cracking on the Spiral Minaret plus opens up Versailles which we get the marble bonus for. I would think that we will be able to trade for both Monarchy and MC pretty easily. What do you think?

 

[Whosit]

Sounds like a harrowing turn, Norvin. Good job, of course. I'm peeking at the save and we definitely look better off than when we started. I'm just gonna run through everything I can think of and make some comments.

First: Didn't catch it in your report, but I see the Missionary in Mezh. That's exactly what we want; the extra 20% boost should help a ton. And the missionary building in Moscow can go to Svetlograd (or Mezh, I guess, if the first fails to spread).

Here's a thought I want to put out: What if we switch from Metal Casting to Monarchy right now? It's 9 turns, but Hereditary Rule is Capac's favorite civic. If we combine the same religion bonus with the favorite civic bonus (we could only get Nappy's civic this early if we had built the pyramids) and whatever trade bonuses we might pick up, I think it would be possible to get the Inca to Friendly, allowing us to breath a little easier. Granted, Metal Casting is functionally more useful, but right now I consider Monarchy a "defensive technology" considering our diplomatic situation. And it's only a 9-turn diversion.

The Heroic Epic in Magnitogorsk sounds like a good idea. If we slot it in right now, it'll only be 8 turns (perhaps a bit less after it grows). When the city grows in five turns, I'd put the new citizen on the grassland mine. It stagnates the city, but the extra production will help. I wouldn't bother spending worker turns to farm all those plains right now.

So, workers. We still only have 7, but it looks like we're still doing O.K. since many of our cities have reached their current effective limits. I really want to see a direct east-west road going from Stalingrad to Svetlograd.

Karachev: I can see us taking a shot at the Parthenon there. I would slot in the Monastery first, perhaps, but we do need a galley to protect our fishing nets. I would actually move that worker to the grassland hill to start a mine. Karachev is near its happiness cap and won't really be able to work any more cottages than are already there. We can stagnate on the hill while adding a bit of hammers to the city.

Svetlograd: When the workers are done building a road (not sure if I would have spent the time doing that, we already have iron), have them move to the Southeast forest/plains hill to chop and mine. Yes, it is close to the barb city, but we have the Axeman standing guard, and if we're very lucky, the worker may lure an archer or two out that we can destroy with our garrison.

Speaking of garrisons, Capac's border guard seems to have diminished slightly (still worrisome in size and composition) but we may be OK for now. I also see a City Raider II Axeman on the move. Let's send him to Svetlograd to help clear out Olmec. We can use the captured workers to help build that road to Stalingrad. Lets send one of Svetlograd's chariots west to fogbust on one of those hills. Even if Capac advances, it should be able to get back to the city in time to defend.

Hmm, Stalingrad is working on a swordsman, that's good. It should probably keep on military units, though slotting in a Monastery (or even a worker) might be safe. Monastery does offer two more hammers per turn.

Moscow: It's at 9/10 of happiness cap. I would actually stop the workers from finishing that cottage and send them to the grassy hill to build a mine. I'm not sure how we can really stagnate the two ideally and the only way to boost the happy cap right now is to build a Colosseum. Alternatively, we can hook up the two incense (I don't know if we can spare a worker for that right now--roads and plantations on desert will take a lot of time), but we could also trade away one of the incense as well. I'd probably wait on that until we get more workers and less critical jobs elsewhere.

So, yeah. I still vote for building at least another worker or two, going for Monarchy and the switch to Hereditary Rule to get all nice-nice with Capac, and changing a couple of worker priorities where cities are close to max size.

Edit: OK, Norvin got the jump on me. We talked about it before, but I still wouldn't mind putting the Hagia in Stalingrad. Workers in Novosibirisk seems like a fair trade-off since I don't think anyone really wants to slot in workers in our most productive cities. The tech and wonder path Norvin suggests is good, but I'd still gun for Monarchy ourselves and immediately for the reasons I've already stated. Picking up the UoS and Versailles won't do us much good if the two wackos declare war on us. Getting M.C. one way or the other is still desirable for those forges.

Edit Again: Oh, right. The last AP elections were distressing, but Capac is still just Cautious towards us. If we boost relations with the various ploys several of us have put forth, and if we can manage to get him to friendly, hopefully the AI won't screw us over and he'll vote for us. We still have enough voting muscle to out-vote the both of them, but that can change soon. (Spreading the faith to our remaining towns and settling a few more later will help, of course.) However, if in the next election we lose, it may be best to vote for Nappy on the following election, perhaps. But again, that's a "wait and see what happens" plan.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Not that it is all that interesting but I've attached a pdf file with some stats and percentages of our current empire. Let me know if its at all useful or if you have any suggestions to provide better info. (Look at the Net column and we can see how important courthouses are)

 

[Norvin_Green]

Normally whenever I have a worker on a hill tile I road it. It had nothing to do with the iron.
I disagree with stopping the cottages in Moscow. It is already providing 20% of our science and 33% of our gold. We need two farms to be able to work all of its tiles. Other than those two everything else should get cottaged. It actually has room to grow 2 pop as the whip unhappiness will be over in 9 turns. Plus in the near future we should get from military police, incense, wines, maybe even a forge.
Also, in Karachev I'd cottage everything as well other than two plains farms. With a mine built on the plains hill forest tile it will have enough food to work all tiles and a base production of at least 16 Not bad for a commerce city.

 

[Glare Seethe]

Here's a thought I want to put out: What if we switch from Metal Casting to Monarchy right now? It's 9 turns, but Hereditary Rule is Capac's favorite civic. If we combine the same religion bonus with the favorite civic bonus (we could only get Nappy's civic this early if we had built the pyramids) and whatever trade bonuses we might pick up, I think it would be possible to get the Inca to Friendly, allowing us to breath a little easier. Granted, Metal Casting is functionally more useful, but right now I consider Monarchy a "defensive technology" considering our diplomatic situation. And it's only a 9-turn diversion.

This is a very good point and I agree now that Monarchy is better choice than Metal Casting. I was thinking about Monarchy myself but only to open up the Divine Right bulb that Norvin mentioned - which I figured can wait until after MC. I totally forgot about the diplo bonus with Huayna. Definitely top priority.

Stalingrad - stagnate and run a priest spec which will reduce our next GP from 38 to 25 turns.

Yeah this might be the way to go if we want to bulb DR. We should pop the prophet before Mezh is fully up and running as our scientist farm, so the sooner the better. I disagree about the Hagia here, I don't think it's important enough to build in one of our major cities.

Moscow can build spies until we want it to build the Spiral Minaret.

It should be noted that Moscow doesn't have to build the SM since the SM itself doesn't give us any gold, it only allows Confu buildings to give gold - in other words the gold bonus won't be centralized in the city where SM was built, but rather each city will gain +2 gold per Confu building. It's a bit of a shame, of course, but I think it's still worth it. We just don't have to consider it only in Moscow.

In Magnitogorsk Glare wants the HE and I agree. I would wait IF we decide to build Hagia in Stalingrad (we still need more troops). Then after the HE if its still around why not try to build the Parth in Magnitogorsk?

I think Magni should get all the production bonuses it can build at the moment. So Confu temple and monastery for the hammer bonus, then the HE. Once the HE is built it should build nothing other than units nonstop, otherwise we waste the HE bonus - and it's not like we don't need the troops. Slot in a forge when it's available.

Mezhdurechensk after the GL can go CH + LH.

National Epic after TGL and immediately assign two scientists. After that it can go on with slow building the CH and LH. I would not build the UoS here, it'll take too long and we'd probably have to fire our specialists for it. True it gives GS points but we can easily do without them. Put it in Stalingrad since that is shaping up to be our main wonder city, maybe it'll pop another GP after the prophet even when competing against Mezh.

Normally I would agree that trading for Monarchy, whether with Paper or more likely Divine Right (since Paper is on the Lib path), is the way to go, but I'm inclined to go with Whosit's suggestion and just self-tech it now to get the diplo bonus with Huayna ASAP. It will also open up the DR bulb and we wouldn't be giving Paper to anyone.

We are discussing a lot of wonders but we are still on thin ice on both fronts. Let's vote for Napoleon in the next elections. It's not like he can do anything with the AP at the moment anyway. That plus the resource trades will maybe get him to Friendly within a couple of turn sets.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Ok, Monarchy it is. You guys won me over. If we get HC to Friendly we can basically just worry about Nappy. We also have wines near Elek for more happiness. Thanks for the UoS and Spiral info Glare. I never thought about it. Karachev will have some decent so possibly we can build some wonders there.

 

[Glare Seethe]

It might be worth connecting Archangel to Magnitogorsk by road in case Napoleon will try to attack there and not at Magni. Probably won't happen, but something to consider.

I think Stalingrad should build units - probably axes and spears for the most part - until a wonder is available. The only ones I think would be worth it at the moment are the two religious ones - SM and UoS, unless the diplomatic situation is safe and units are no longer needed as desperately. I wouldn't even build a market there even though it is producing a lot of gold for us.

Looking at Norvin's pdf, it's still our top hammer city until Magni gets the HE, and our hammer cities need to be building units at the moment. Moscow and Karachev can stop multi-tasking now and focus on being commerce cities, which means working as many cottages as possible, sacrificing production. Still, they both do have decent production even while working cottages so they can make themselves useful by building wonders or missionaries / occasional units / etc.

edit: or settlers! We still need to settle St. Petersburg. Maybe Moscow can build a settler while Stalingrad builds more troops and we send them all together to Olmec. With some reinforcements from Svetlograd. I think the best site for St. Petersburg is 1E from St. Peter's grave, as currently flagged. After that we have... at least 6-7 more cities to settle, but as long as that tundra is blocked we are okay. Huayna can even have all those plains in between Stalingrad and our eastern holdings as long as we settle the Moai city and the green dot north of Stalingrad. Whatever he builds in that useless area will be pressed by Russian culture anyway. Or we can just settle it ourselves. It will suck until Biology, but what can you do.

 

[Whosit]

I like the settler idea, Glare. In fact, we could settle St. Petersburg even before we sack Olmec, if we bring enough troops to guard it (though the order of operations may not matter). The only reason I'd settle first is to ensure that Capac doesn't plop a town down before we can. I might suggest that Moscow switch from the Missionary to a Settler for now . . . . It's 11 turns. I'd whip it except that Moscow has become a commerce town.

Several cottages will grow to various sizes in the next half-dozen turns, so we should see some commerce/science boosts.

Oh, I opened the save again to check. Because Norvin got us a nice treasury, we can research at deficit. We can research Monarchy in 7 turns (instead of 9) by bumping up research to 50%, losing only 8 gpt. 60% bleeds 21 gpt and only improves research to 6 turns, so I'd leave it at 50%. We're paying for troops, so each additional unit will cost us money, but our commerce is gradually improving, so we should be OK.

It's kind of funny that Green Dot hasn't been settled yet, though since it's right next to the capital, we've never been in a rush to grab it. It will still probably be settled later. I'll have to check an older dot map 'cuz I forget exactly where it was supposed to go.

Oh, and I have a proposition: Let not St. Pete's grave be improved in any way. Neverminding that it's only a plains tile, I know intentionally leaving a tile unimproved isn't "best play" but why not take this little joke to its furthest conclusion?

@Norvin: I understand roading hills, but the iron by Svetlograd is actually just on flat plains. And, sometimes, when workers are scarce, I think it's OK to let even hills go unroaded for a bit until other important infrastructure is in place, but I think that's just a personal preference.

I think we do want to take care of Olmec soon because it's really starting to fill up with archers . . . .

Edit: If we leave the Hagia in the ice box, we can cut 30 turns off by working the marble. We probably still won't get it, but, eh.

And I'm going to upload a couple of pictures I forgot to earlier.

The road:

It diverts to pick up the horses and so it will connect to White Dot 4 when we settle it.

Filler:

Spoiler :

We have the near-Stalingrad production town, the eastern white dot we'd settle if we ever war with Capac (and burn his town). I was looking for the best place to put a blocker city and that's the one in the middle. It can pick up some grassland for cottages and . . . not much else. When we get Civil Service we can chain irrigate all those plains and get some hammers to the town, I guess. I'd like to make it a semi-priority just because I'd rather not have Capac get a foothold within Russian territory.

 

[Glare Seethe]

If you guys really want to The Hagia Sophia I'm okay with putting it in Karachev or Moscow. One can build that and the other can build The Parthenon. It's what, ~25 turns for each? That's probably okay unless Huayna has marble and has started on it already.

Karachev, though, needs to build a galley first after this workboat, and Moscow needs to build a settler. But after these two builds they're relatively free to build wonders.

 

[Whosit]

Oh, just a random reminder for Elekrogorsk: After the rice is farmed, cows can be pastured (road through the forest) and the wine can be hooked up when we get Monarchy. Don't cut down any forests and don't build roads on any more open tiles. Still think this would make a decent National Park, unless we settle an even more wooded area.

 

[Whosit]

Apologize for a double post.

It's been roughly 32 hours since the save was posted and no word from Xanthus. Our guidelines state that a "got it" must be posted within 24 hours of the save. Therefore, I propose that we skip him this round. That would put me up. Since I can't play anyway until early this afternoon, I'll wait to hear from Xanthus and the rest of you, since I don't quite want to snatch the save unilaterally.

 

[Glare Seethe]

That's fine with me, Whosit.

In any case, whoever plays the next set, could you flag Elektrogorsk with 'National Park' just so we remember. I have a feeling I'll forget and chop something out there.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Seeing as we haven't heard from Xanthus I agree that Whosit is up. Please post here when you take it so we don't have two players going at the same save.
As for the game I don't see the point in blocking HC with that city. I'd slide it down 2S to at least take in the cows.

Here's where I think we should build St. Pete and one other city. I think that St. Pete should be first followed bu NW city on coast between Karachev and Mezh (think Nappy might try to drop a city here). Followed by city to north of Stalingrad then coastal fish/wheat city by St. Pete and then filler city.

Spoiler :

 

[Whosit]

Well, I'll officially declare "got it," then.

I'll flag our future park.

I politely disagree with you on our Middle City placement, Norvin. Moving the central city south two squares sacrifices a lot of grassland and water access for plains cows and a lot of plains. As I have heard some more experienced players note: Cows do not a city make. I think it would be stronger, or at least more useful, where I put it. I think those cows are just not going to be used, but I'm fine with that. If we really want them, we can pop a filler 1E of them at a later date.

I'm not entirely sold on your tundra placement, but that's partially because that land is really terrible and hard to make a decent placement map for. I still think St. Petersburg should be put where it's flagged (east of the grave). It'll get the grassland sheep and two grasslands that could eventually be farmed, providing enough food to work all of the furs (and a few forests for hammers). Not 100% sure on where to settle after that, but we'll have plenty of time to decide.