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Sandman's Diplo Fastest Finish

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Sandman2003, Feb 6, 2005.

  1. Sandman2003

    Sandman2003 Prince

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    I have just finished a diplomatic victory in 550AD, which based on the current HOF table values is the fastest diplomatic victory.

    The settings for this game were:
    Standard world size
    Sedentary Barbarians
    Pangaea 60% water
    Wet, warm, 5 billion years
    All standard victory conditions enabled
    Allow SGLs
    Chieftain difficulty
    Played as Russia

    AI:
    Greece
    Germany
    Byzantines
    Babylon
    Korea

    Starting Position:


    The basic idea was threefold:
    1) Use the republic slingshot early
    2) Use the big picture at the turn of each age to pick up the full first tier in trades with the scientific civs, so our own tech would be a second tier tech
    3) No industrious civs so initial research on masonry could be used to fish for an SGL. Hence the reduction to just 5 of the remaining scientific civs.

    Thanks to DaveMcW whom I think pioneered all these techniques.

    The second hut popped in 3850BC gave us this little present:

    I would have preferred a settler, but I am not going to complain!

    It turned out that masonry did not give us an SGL after all, but after trading for alphabet, we researched writing, and:

    We didn't go for map making next, but instead headed straight for philosophy, delaying the completion date until we popped code of laws from a hut (about three turns). Philosophy gave us the republic and an immediate revolt to republic. After the initial alphabet trade, the AI were only of value techwise at the change of each age. We researched map making and construction, and popped every other AA tech including Monarchy and literature.

    Key dates:
    4000BC – GH puts code of laws
    3950BC – Moscow founded
    3850BC – GH pops city
    2950BC – Meet Korea and trade for alphabet
    2750BC – Meet Greece
    2630BC – Trade with Greece for Iron Working
    2310BC – Writing learnt – SGL become pyramids
    2190BC – Pyramids built
    1830BC – Pop Code of Laws
    1790BC – Get philosophy and the Republic, revolt 5 turn anarchy
    1425BC – Learn construction to enter MA
    Get Theology for free
    1000BC – QSC stats
    21 cities
    61 pop
    4 settlers
    12 workers
    390BC – Built Mausoleum, and forbidden palace
    330BC – Build Colossus, kick off GA
    90BC – Hit the IA
    Electricity was our free tech
    Replaceable researched in 5, then industrialisation in 4
    Complete Copernicus in Moscow
    Then sci method in 4, 9 turns remained on the build for ToE, so Steel and Refining were learnt in exactly 9 turns (total), the rest of the IA at 4 turns per tech, with flight completed last, and only just able to be done in 4.
    340AD – ToE comes in for free atomic theory and electronics (most expensive IA techs)
    500AD - Enter MA, suffrage pre-build due in 1, needs 4 more turns to finish UN
    540AD – Complete the UN
    550AD - Diplo victory



     
  2. Sandman2003

    Sandman2003 Prince

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    I left this post to write some open notes to myself on how to better my date, since I am convinced that it is not yet the last word on fast diplo victories! This was actually my third attempt to post a fast date, and my notes are of my lessons learned. The diplo victory basically comes down to speed of research achieved.

    Ancient Age
    The AA research is virtually research by goody hut (hence expansionist civ choice). Although if the Ai should actually have something useful to trade for then it is worth doing it immediately, since you are only going to gift them a whole bunch of techs at the end of the age anyway, and it saves waiting to pop that particular tech! In this game, I think I could have sped up the AA by employing more scouts, and thus popping huts faster. From memory I only used 3 for the most part going up to 4 at the end. On the next attempt, I will aim for 6+.

    One added effect of the hut popping speed was that I actually had to slow down research on philosophy while I waited for code of laws to pop. With faster popping, we probably would not have had to waste a few turns.

    In my very first attempt, I made the mistake of going for code of laws first - definitely a waste of time, as philosophy was quickly popped from a hut while still researching CoL, and of course Col was my free tech instead of republic!

    The early SGL to build the Pyramids is huge. In my previous games, I haven't assumed that I was going to get it and so started building granaries. In my future games, I will ditch those games where it doesn't haoppen. This will provide the necessary extra shields for the additional scouts and workers that I want.

    Middle Ages
    The problem with the MA is getting the research time down to 4 turns early. In this game, I was only getting close to 4 turns when I finally triggered a late MA golden age to bring in 4 turn research at the end. I think a combination of an earlier GA, and many more workers is the secret here.

    Also, since there were a lot of GH left over after I reached the MA, and the 50 gold and various maps are completely useless to this strategy, I am going to move to a small map for lower tech cost. Hopefully this will help.

    Industrial Age
    I didn't waste much time here. The only five turn research was replaceable parts, and refining. I deliberately went for RP early to speed up my worker force on their railing work, which probably helped keep the rest of the IA at 4 turn pace. As for refining, that was slowed to complete on the same turn as ToE. I suppose I could have slowed ToE by three turns, and completed another tech instead. ToE has to give atomic theory and electronics as they are the most expensive techs in the era.

    Flight is then the most expensive tech left, and it was only at the very end that I had it doable in 4 turns. My other mistake. of course was building the pre-build for the UN in my capital, forcing a build of US, and needing a further 4 turns to finish the game.

    Modern Age
    Basically you get six free shots at getting fission on the change of age, then flicking the pre-build over to the UN. Winning the vote is very simple. There has not been a need to war with anyone in my three games so far, and as soon as nationalism is out there, the Ai all want to sign up MPPs and RoPs with you. Those treaties are enough to keep them gracious towards you guranteeing their vote.
     
  3. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    Very good!
    We needed a diplomat.. :mischief:
     
  4. Sandman2003

    Sandman2003 Prince

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    We are just trying to show you blood thirsty conquerers that there is another way!
     
  5. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    Sorry, but I'm currently milking. :lol:
    I do love bloooooood with my milk though.. :D
     
  6. Sandman2003

    Sandman2003 Prince

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    I thought blood was an essential part of any milk attempt, and given your record, it would kind of have to be, wouldn'r it?

    You sure you have time to run off and milk?
     
  7. bed_head7

    bed_head7 Deity

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    I think that that was what " :mad:. Try it..." was all about.
     
  8. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    Time I have, but never enough.
    Regarding {Small, Sid}.. :mad: Have to know a few tricks before I go into it again.
    I'm now milking chieftain for awhile, so I can't call the sudden dissapearance of most AIs "blood".
    More like "keeping the expansion going" or "they were in my way/on a luxury".

    I'm finally playing civ even AFTER 1000BC..
     
  9. SirPleb

    SirPleb Shaken, not stirred.

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    I've been working on exactly the same thing for a few weeks now :)

    I haven't finished a game yet. Still looking for the perfect Ancient Times start. I run MapFinder at night selecting only maps which have at least two cows near the start position. I play most of them a bit, rejecting just those which are clearly not great starts despite the two cows. I fairly quickly drop the majority of the maps because they don't give an early settler. Then comes the tedious part - I play the remainder out till I learn my first two techs. If I don't get an SGL I abandon the map. Also if it turns out unsuitable due to being on a small island or generally poor land.

    I agree that the early Pyramids is a huge boost, it seems well worth playing for the early SGL.

    I've been using very similar settings to yours. I've been using small maps instead of standard, and am currently (I've adjusted a bit from my first tries) using opponents Germany, Babylon, Ottomans, Persia, Byzantines. I research The Wheel first then Writing. I have both Ottomans and Persia on the list because I've been going for trading for Masonry. I need it early for the leader boosted Pyramids and with just one rival who knows it I often haven't met them soon enough.

    Thanks for your writeup Sandman! Your finish date looks like a good target, it will take some work to beat ;)
     
  10. Ronald

    Ronald Emperor

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    What a coincidence! I have been working on the same thing too! Pretty similar setup. I am doing standard maps since I am afraid there are not enough goody huts to pop on a small map. It will be interesting to compare results.
    So far I rejected several dozen maps because of either no early settler (3 minutes playing time an average) or no early SGL (25 minutes playing time on average).
    550 AD is a nice target time. I am looking forward to reading more diplo stories.

    Ronald
     
  11. EMan

    EMan HOFer: Milk-Cow?

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    Are we talking BUILDING a Settler here or POPPING one?........If Popping, what are the "Hut Rules"? :)
     
  12. SirPleb

    SirPleb Shaken, not stirred.

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    I guess we all saw the same holes in the HOF :lol:

    Ronald and Sandman, are you guys also thinking about Diplomatic at the other difficulty levels? ;)

    That is definitely a concern. I've played three maps past the SGL point so far.

    One I simply screwed up playing too fast. There's an interesting decision point in this game: research Code Of Laws after getting Writing or not? If not then Code Of Laws must be popped before finishing Philosophy research, and that may need to be artificially delayed. If researching Code Of Laws first then huts must be bypassed for later popping until that research is done and one can start on Philosophy. I'm not sure which is best. Anyway, in the first game where I got an SGL I didn't even recognize this decision, played too quickly and messed it up.

    Second one I got to Middle Ages and my rivals got only two techs between the three of them. It already wasn't a spectacularly fast start and that was the last straw, I abandoned it.

    Third one confirms your concern. When I'd explored the entire map and was out of huts I was still three techs short of finishing Ancient Times. Too many huts popped maps, gold, and warriors that time.
     
  13. SirPleb

    SirPleb Shaken, not stirred.

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    Popping! Before I get my first settler built I want to have popped another. (After building one it isn't going to happen at this level because we're larger than the AIs.) Odds of popping one are fairly good at Cheiftain level. I haven't counted but would guess that I pop a settler early enough to suit my purposes in a bit better than one out of four starts.
     
  14. EMan

    EMan HOFer: Milk-Cow?

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    2 Questions:
    1. What are the odds of Popping a Settler? (My understanding is that you can't Pop one IF you are buiding one OR have one on the move).....Do they increase with a certain type of Civ? (i.e. Expansionist?)

    2. Is there a limiting factor depending on your Total number of cities v Total number of cities on the Map? (I read something about this somewhere!) :)
     
  15. boogaboo

    boogaboo Josef Popper 4ever

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    Finally I get to help you out, Eman! ;)

    Can't remember the thread and who directed me to it (possibly on one of my threads here), but the rules as I remember them:
    1. You can't pop a settler if you have one active (I remember reading "or in production", and always switched to barracks never to really check it out..)
    2. You can't pop a settler if you have a number of cities larger than the avarage of all (living??) AIs. (At start, all have 1 city, and when you have 1, it is not LARGER than one ;) ).

    And... this jpg (which also should self explain if you look long enough..) :
     

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  16. EMan

    EMan HOFer: Milk-Cow?

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    That's EXACTLY what I was looking for, boogaboo....Good Job! :goodjob:
     
  17. Smirk

    Smirk King

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    The "having one in production" is easily verified and I've done it myself, play till you find a map with a settler being sure to switch any inproduction. Then reload that turn don't switch the settler, and see what you get instead.
     
  18. Sandman2003

    Sandman2003 Prince

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    I am kind of both honoured and daunted at the same time, here. Honoured to have two giants of the game in Sir Pleb and Ronald join my thread, and daunted that they are challenging on 'my' little niche. I guess as I stated above, I have not yet posted a definitive game. So as the pundits like to say, game on! :)

    Sir Pleb/Ronald, I find it interesting that you both will reject any map that you don't pop a settler on (would a popped city be an acceptable substitute if in an ok position?). As this is an independent event to the generation of the SGL, it would seem to multiply the necessary map permutations that you will have to run through by a factor of 4. I suppose for a truly definitive game the added bonus of this early settler is necessary, but on the other hand, you (Sir Pleb) state that you are prepared to wait for the SGL until the second tech - isn't that actually a bigger compromise?

    Masonry vs The Wheel - I can see the added value of a cheaper first tech - I might adjust my future runs accordingly. However, isn't the wheel and masonry the same cost? In which case I do not understand this selection. Researching Ceremonial Burial instead, makes sense to me, and it is this that I may do.

    Standard ve Small - My game was on standard. I was encouraged by the number of GHs left over for the MA to start running mapfinder on small size maps. I haven't yet run through the AA on a small map to see if the number of available GHs becomes a problem.
    Sir Pleb are you running with small or tiny maps - you seemed to mention only three rivals?

    Yes, but not until I have posted a more definitive cheiftain level game. I am pretty sure that cheiftain offers the best opportunity for the earliest date. Also I doubt that I will make a point of targeting all the levels.

    Code of Laws vs Philosophy - I am of the opinion that code of laws is best popped. I strongly suspect that the delay while researching CoL is going to be significantly more than the artificial delay that may be necessary while you time philosophy to complete after receiving CoL. In my game this artificial delay was three or four turns, but I was still some distance from four turn research at that time. At least if this isn't the case (due presumably to rotten GH luck) you will probably want to ditch that run in any event.
     
  19. Ronald

    Ronald Emperor

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    No, I planned to do chieftain only

    edit: I just had an idea for a SID gameplan, I might try that one :D

    I thought about that and decided I go for philosophy directly. I f I don't popp CoL early enough, I just stop research untill I get it. I would stop research after Phil anyway to save enough money to buy libraries asap. It only delays becoming a republic for a few turns.

    It seems on small maps the luck factor plays a role, so I will stick with standard maps.

    Concerning SGLs: I decided to abandone a map if I don't get the SGL when I research masonry. The rationale behind is, that it makes very easy gameplay on a map which is likely to be abandoned anyway. It takes about 15 turns to research masonry with two cities. During these turns no micromanagement is needed, both cities just produce scouts. When I get the SGL and rush the pyramids, it is 1 or two scouts more and I have a settler and a worker factory going.
    If I wait for the next tech, it is 10 to 12 turns more, but they start to be more time consuming because more and more micromanagement is needed.
     
  20. punkbass2000

    punkbass2000 Des An artiste

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    "Sir Pleb are you running with small or tiny maps - you seemed to mention only three rivals?"

    He's running Small maps. Three is the minimum for HoF entries on Small maps. 2, 3, 4, 6 and 8 are the minimums, respectively, IIRC.
     

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