Because it comes earlier and thus gets you culture sooner. The Pyramids also helps with research, since cities grow more quickly. And becomes a tourist attraction sooner.
Blackbetsy HOF Attempts
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BlackBetsy
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I've just run a couple of games to 1000 BC and I consistently hit the Pyramids as a hand build and then lose the Oracle. But the pace of science on Emperor Huge Archipelago (60%) is VERY slow for me, I just hit writing at 1000 BC in one game (I was second one to it).
Yea, that's another reason. If you can manage to SGL The Pyramids, then you have a better shot at hand-building The Oracle.
BlackBetsy
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On my 6th start going to second researched tech.....still no SGL on some pretty choice locations.
Edit - is there any evidence that the AI will go to CB before Alphabet such that you are more likely to get an SGL on Alphabet?
Edit - is there any evidence that the AI will go to CB before Alphabet such that you are more likely to get an SGL on Alphabet?
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The Huge Sid first place entry, I think, has a Ceremonial Burial SGL.
They are likely to research Warrior Code or Bronze Working first.
That said, if huts are available, they will pop Ceremonial Burial or Pottery from a hut first, because huts give the player the least expensive technology. They have free units on this level also. So, if you want to fish for a Ceremonial Burial SGL, do not have barbarians on.
BlackBetsy
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I switched to Alphabet since it is more tradeable, and because I can get to the Republic slingshot on a more directly path. I've also switched my 20k city to the number 2 city with a warrior/settler build in the cap to get the second city built as soon as possible. No Barbs. We are going with some tough hombre civs as opponents - Germans, Chinese, Sumerians, Mongols, Aztecs, Ottomans, Russians, and Zulus.
BlackBetsy
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I just can't buy an SGL, it seems. For some reason I am playing through a game with zero SGLs because my cap is pretty productive and I got the Pyramids and Great Library built in decent time. But I'm in 680 AD (turn 183) and CivAssist has me winning only in 1977 (turn 467). That's not even on the HOF board. So I would need to cut 122 turns to hit 1750 (turn 345). Hitting Shakespeare in turn 197 would help since it would be 1,184 culture on its own from turn 197-345. Getting an SGL so I can immediately build Cope or Newton's would be most beneficial.
I missed Sistine by 1 turn but since I had just finished Music Theory I switched to JS Bach for a 1 turn build so it was neutral on immediate culture production.
I built my 20k city in my capital because I like the tech pace better there but I did waste 20 turns building wealth when there really wasn't anything else to build and because my #2 city was a beautiful flood plain assisted settler factory. Those 20 turns are probably what is going to kill me. We also had a despotic Golden Age, which wasn't optimal although it doesn't hurt as much on shield production. I am at 24 shields per turn in my cap, which isn't as much as I would like (25 would be better for the lack of waste).
It's not clear to me why I'm struggling as much on tech pace.
I missed Sistine by 1 turn but since I had just finished Music Theory I switched to JS Bach for a 1 turn build so it was neutral on immediate culture production.
I built my 20k city in my capital because I like the tech pace better there but I did waste 20 turns building wealth when there really wasn't anything else to build and because my #2 city was a beautiful flood plain assisted settler factory. Those 20 turns are probably what is going to kill me. We also had a despotic Golden Age, which wasn't optimal although it doesn't hurt as much on shield production. I am at 24 shields per turn in my cap, which isn't as much as I would like (25 would be better for the lack of waste).
It's not clear to me why I'm struggling as much on tech pace.
It worked out well for you in this game, but I'm unclear why you are learning music theory before you know free artistry. If I need a prebuild for ST, learning astronomy is usually my preference, as it is a required tech. If the tech pace is slow, make sure you are bee-lining your desired techs and trading with the AI. Also, different AI go for different techs, so you might swap your opponents around if you don't like the techs they go for.
On huge, tech costs are high, so the pace is going to be slow. Picking agricultural opponents can help. Being agricultural yourself can help, so Sumeria is attractive if you aren't picking a civ that starts with alphabet. (Commercial opponents can help, but they start with alphabet.) Trading contacts once you have printing press can help, too.
On huge, tech costs are high, so the pace is going to be slow. Picking agricultural opponents can help. Being agricultural yourself can help, so Sumeria is attractive if you aren't picking a civ that starts with alphabet. (Commercial opponents can help, but they start with alphabet.) Trading contacts once you have printing press can help, too.
BlackBetsy
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You know, that's a good point. At the time, I had just done Education and I remember looking at the path and seeing it as 1 more tech that would unlock JS Bach's which I thought I might get right after Sistine's, over Copernicus, while I waited for Shakespeare. I think it was 4 turns for me, so it seemed like a cheap path and helped with happiness / lux slider in my civ.
Not having an SGL really boxes you up on builds. Ultimately, I think I might not do better than mid 1800's on this one even if things go right. All in all, I should have dumped without an SGL, I think. And again, on Emperor level, where you have competition for wonders, building in a second city and having a Palace pre-build option can be important. I've thought about moving my palace to a second city to help with this, since it is relatively costless.
BlackBetsy
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Hilariously, I am going to hit 20k in the early 1800's, but I am going to hit 100K culture in the late 1900's. If I have a 100k culture score before 2040, I get a #4 on Huge Emperor 100k, meaning that I improve my Huge and Emperor positions. (sigh). I may just disassemble my capital right before it hits 20k. I will lose 100+ cpt, but I can re-build that pretty easily by building culture in cities where I had ignored it. Maybe I'll switch into Feudalism. 
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.BlackBetsy
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Ok this is a real quandary.
I am in the year 1425. We are about to hit the Modern Era with Flight. CivAssist has me winning 20k cultural victory in 1834 AD as I have 9236 culture in Persepolis and generating 94 cpt. I haven't built UN (4 cpt), Wall Street (2), The Internet (4), Longevity (3), Manhattan Project (2), Apollo Program (2), Seti (3), SMD (1) or a Research Lab (2). Even if I added all of those in a single turn (23), I'd be up to 117 cpt, finishing in 1798 (probably a few turns earlier with a couple of doubles). So my ability to improve my position in the Huge Emperor 20k table is non-existent.
The Huge Emperor 100k table, however, has only 4 spots and 2040 is the #4 spot. CivAssist has me finishing 100k in 2046 AD, which I know is something I will improve by 60-70 turns if I started focusing on whole empire culture now. Heck, the Internet will cut off 10 turns on its own. I'm only producing 399 cpt across the entire empire - with 94 coming from Persepolis.
But we are in the year 1425 and making it to the late 1900's means the AIs will be building spaceships. The only reliable way to stop the AI from building Spaceships is to conquer/ blow apart any technologically advanced AI. The Germans are advanced because they are buying research from me. On their own, they are a big civ capable of researching. I don't think they hit their golden age yet, but going to war with them will surely mean they hit it with the Panzers. I am currently at war with the Sumerians because they had a supply of rubber that doesn't exist on my continent in this 60% archipelago. Happily, they are on the same continent with the Germans and Aztecs, who I also will have to blow apart given their technical advancement. But its going to take a lot of bombers and likely nukes. And we may have to switch to Communism and endure an 8 turn anarchy. Ugh.
The only way to win 100k is to give away Persepolis before 1834. I could sell off the temple / university / cathedral / colosseum and library to save (4+8+6+4+6) 28 cpt and put me at 1948 AD. I guess the wars are won by then and I can disband Persepolis or gift it away. Or I could beat that date in 100k, but it would probably be decently close. If I'm close to 100k and have wiped out my adversaries, I'm assuming the culture loss will be something I can overcome.
If I gift away my capital, and capture it, do the Wonders start generating culture again? If I just lost the doubling (currently 14 cpt) that extends me out to 1992.
I am in the year 1425. We are about to hit the Modern Era with Flight. CivAssist has me winning 20k cultural victory in 1834 AD as I have 9236 culture in Persepolis and generating 94 cpt. I haven't built UN (4 cpt), Wall Street (2), The Internet (4), Longevity (3), Manhattan Project (2), Apollo Program (2), Seti (3), SMD (1) or a Research Lab (2). Even if I added all of those in a single turn (23), I'd be up to 117 cpt, finishing in 1798 (probably a few turns earlier with a couple of doubles). So my ability to improve my position in the Huge Emperor 20k table is non-existent.
The Huge Emperor 100k table, however, has only 4 spots and 2040 is the #4 spot. CivAssist has me finishing 100k in 2046 AD, which I know is something I will improve by 60-70 turns if I started focusing on whole empire culture now. Heck, the Internet will cut off 10 turns on its own. I'm only producing 399 cpt across the entire empire - with 94 coming from Persepolis.
But we are in the year 1425 and making it to the late 1900's means the AIs will be building spaceships. The only reliable way to stop the AI from building Spaceships is to conquer/ blow apart any technologically advanced AI. The Germans are advanced because they are buying research from me. On their own, they are a big civ capable of researching. I don't think they hit their golden age yet, but going to war with them will surely mean they hit it with the Panzers. I am currently at war with the Sumerians because they had a supply of rubber that doesn't exist on my continent in this 60% archipelago. Happily, they are on the same continent with the Germans and Aztecs, who I also will have to blow apart given their technical advancement. But its going to take a lot of bombers and likely nukes. And we may have to switch to Communism and endure an 8 turn anarchy. Ugh.
The only way to win 100k is to give away Persepolis before 1834. I could sell off the temple / university / cathedral / colosseum and library to save (4+8+6+4+6) 28 cpt and put me at 1948 AD. I guess the wars are won by then and I can disband Persepolis or gift it away. Or I could beat that date in 100k, but it would probably be decently close. If I'm close to 100k and have wiped out my adversaries, I'm assuming the culture loss will be something I can overcome.
If I gift away my capital, and capture it, do the Wonders start generating culture again? If I just lost the doubling (currently 14 cpt) that extends me out to 1992.
BlackBetsy
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The good news is that if I go the War Route, Persepolis gets turned into an Army Building Machine and we have some Sir Pleb-style fun with the AI hordes.
If this is Conquests, you need 160k on a huge map.
Selling buildings sounds like the better plan rather than abandoning your capital.
BlackBetsy
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Yes, and I think CivAssist adjusts for that, although simple math suggests I am only going to be @135k @2050 - I guess I get 25k of culture doubling along the way.
Would diverting to diplomatic or spaceship victories work for you? It looks like you could take 5th in diplomatic (possibly 4th if you have a UN prebuild going and can get lucky with techs) and maybe 5th in spaceship, too.
Otherwise, sell buildings in Persepolis. If you can arrange for the AI to take it, that would also lose the palace. You still get culture from great wonders when you take it back. (Why, yes, I do know this from recent experience, when I accidentally forgot to eliminate a small landing party before hitting end turn.
Don't switch to Communism, as you accrue no culture during anarchy. Draft and disband, use civil engineers, and build units in the core to disband in the corrupt areas. In food-rich areas, draft and disband can be better than pop-rushing, as you can get more shields per population point, though you can't draft down to no population so you'll need luxes to stay content.
Otherwise, sell buildings in Persepolis. If you can arrange for the AI to take it, that would also lose the palace. You still get culture from great wonders when you take it back. (Why, yes, I do know this from recent experience, when I accidentally forgot to eliminate a small landing party before hitting end turn.
Don't switch to Communism, as you accrue no culture during anarchy. Draft and disband, use civil engineers, and build units in the core to disband in the corrupt areas. In food-rich areas, draft and disband can be better than pop-rushing, as you can get more shields per population point, though you can't draft down to no population so you'll need luxes to stay content.
BlackBetsy
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I'd need an SGL on Flight to complete the UN in time for #4. If I do get it, I might take that path.
I don't think a 1440 modern era can lead to beating 1580 on spaceship, for #4 though. Had I played for SS the whole time, yes, no problem. But I haven't built up my core to build parts or maxxed for tech speed and the Germans have a better core group of cities and a 20% discount on parts. I'd have to look at the map to see how much of their core is watered vs. mined. I'm what, only 30 turns away from 1575? I think I'd have to finish Flight (3 turns?), rush a bunch of factories, and then supercharge research and hope the Germans pick up the Modern Age techs I don't research. Seems like a tall task.
Once I realized I get to play with armies, I think maybe 100k became the more fun path.
BlackBetsy
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Another thing about a 100k attempt here is that you have to have 2X the culture of the next civ. The Germans already have 60k culture, so I'm going to have to wipe them out. We are a couple of turns from wiping out the Russians, and then I think the Sumerians, before they get too advanced. I'll take their last rubber source so that their tank and infantry numbers are manageable.
After a drought in creating MGL, I just got two and now have double digit tank armies in the field. We are waiting on Rocketry to finish to see if we need to take aluminum from someone. At some point we start creating Mech Infantry armies for defense of cities captured from the Germans.
After a drought in creating MGL, I just got two and now have double digit tank armies in the field. We are waiting on Rocketry to finish to see if we need to take aluminum from someone. At some point we start creating Mech Infantry armies for defense of cities captured from the Germans.
BlackBetsy
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Gotta love AI armies.
View attachment 686994
The Sumerians have a mainland and an island with 4 cities. Their mainland as of now has no rubber (see above, I grabbed their rubber city by force), no oil, and no aluminum. They have a part of another large island (lower left, just off the tip of my southern coast), that has their aluminum, oil and rubber all within about 8 tiles of each other.
Now its just a question of killing off what will be the only Infantry they will ever be able to build with my bomber fleet while their longbowman and swordsmen hit my mech infantry. Maybe they will give me some new MGLs in the process.
View attachment 686994
The Sumerians have a mainland and an island with 4 cities. Their mainland as of now has no rubber (see above, I grabbed their rubber city by force), no oil, and no aluminum. They have a part of another large island (lower left, just off the tip of my southern coast), that has their aluminum, oil and rubber all within about 8 tiles of each other.
Now its just a question of killing off what will be the only Infantry they will ever be able to build with my bomber fleet while their longbowman and swordsmen hit my mech infantry. Maybe they will give me some new MGLs in the process.
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BlackBetsy
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Update: The Marines have landed!
It wasn't much of a fight on this outlying island. Somehow, Gil is generating SOME new rubber-based units, could be things in queue. I've landed on the mainland with half a dozen armies while some Modern Armor armies are trained on the mainland (but many Modern Armor units will just come over themselves) Gil's fleet of 20 destroyers and 2 cruisers is now a flotilla of 4 destroyers that my bombers will hunt down and eliminate. The skies are ours.
It wasn't much of a fight on this outlying island. Somehow, Gil is generating SOME new rubber-based units, could be things in queue. I've landed on the mainland with half a dozen armies while some Modern Armor armies are trained on the mainland (but many Modern Armor units will just come over themselves) Gil's fleet of 20 destroyers and 2 cruisers is now a flotilla of 4 destroyers that my bombers will hunt down and eliminate. The skies are ours.
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BlackBetsy
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Well, I'm on vacation now so my slugfest with the Sumerians will have to continue after a week or so. They are somehow generating 20 units per turn and I'm probably only killing 22 or so (most die in bombing raids). The Sumerians are putting up a terrific fight with TOW Infantry outside Kish, and I've had to pull back heavily damages Tank armies to heal lest the AI take shots at them; I've already lost a wounded army in a cultural flip.
