Science Issues with Tradition

I would not say that Tradition has an optimal number of cities which you should directly control. From the viewpoint of the guilds, the optimum is somewhere between 3 and 7 cities. One of each guild will be in your capital, then you have two others to put in different cities. From my personal experience I would say you should found 5 cities and build in each secondary city one writer or artist guild. Depending from that point, if you reach musicians, will you have founded two more cities or captured two? Or do you have developed your secondary cities so far, that you can build another guild in one of them? That is highly depending on the question if your secondary cities have enough food and growth to support those extra specialists, because traditions secondary cities dont benifit of the food reduction for specialists.

Considering the early expansion with Tradition, you should not spam to many settlers. Your early settlers will be build, in most cases regardless of social policy build, in your capital. But building too many settlers will cripple your capital, it wont grow and wont spent hammers on other important things. In my opinion, for Tradition's early expansion are two priorities, get your monopoly and maybe a natural wonder or additional luxuries. And yeah, try to avoid to settle in locations where food will become a problem.

But back to the question of the OP. In general, Tradtion will have a stronger science game later in the game. Early on, it is has no advantages until your 4th social policy and then it is the question, do you have the ressources to work the scientist slot in your capital? Will you have build all the councils and herbalists to get the advantage of the extra science?

If you look straight up, Tradition wont outscale Progress in terms of science in the early game, progress doesnt have to do anything to get extra science, only grow its capital and connect its city, something you will do nonetheless. But as Tradition, you might build quite soon the councils, but the herbalist? In every city, even without plantations and forests/jungles? I dont think so. And after the food increase for specialists, I am not that sure if you will work all the time the scientist, the arist for extra culture and the engineer for extra production is imo way more important in the early game. And working three specialists in the early game when your capital is somewhere between 5 to 10 pop is quite risky.
 
Giving tribute voluntarily? I never do that. Is it really effective? I always trade with value closest to 0 if possible.
It works like a charm. For instance in this my current game, I have the Zulus as a an only neighbour to the north, and I'm stuck in the middle between them and Austria and Siam to the south. A war would probably be unavoidable if I didn't see to that they stay happy (Trade partner value currently at "34").

I don't want a tiresome war against them atm, since they usually have a quite a large army and since Siam and Austria to the south can be more of a problem later on, if not kept in check; Austria being very weak atm. She has no spearmen nor any walls, and thus being open for invasion (I have a catapult, horseman, and spearmen on their way.).With a few more units I can probably take down quite fast, meanwhile not having to worry about the Zulus to the north, since I have paid them to stay happy. On the other hand, I wouldn't fear the Zulus at all on this map (paid or not paid), since the terrain is very much to my advantage if needing to defend myself.

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It works like a charm. For instance in this my current game, I have the Zulus as a an only neighbour to the north, and I'm stuck in the middle between them and Austria and Siam to the south. A war would probably be unavoidable if I didn't see to that they stay happy (Trade partner value currently at "34").

I don't want a tiresome war against them atm, since they usually have a quite a large army and since Siam and Austria to the south can be more of a problem later on, if not kept in check; Austria being very weak atm. She has no spearmen nor any walls, and thus being open for invasion (I have a catapult, horseman, and spearmen on their way.).With a few more units I can probably take down quite fast, meanwhile not having to worry about the Zulus to the north, since I have paid them to stay happy. On the other hand, I wouldn't fear the Zulus at all on this map (paid or not paid), since the terrain is very much to my advantage if needing to defend myself.

View attachment 498029

How much did you pay?

I'm going to have to try this, I never thought it would be so effective.

Though your terrain is quite defensible anyway tbh.
 
I don't remember exactly, perhaps between 20-25 gp/turn. Not all at once ofc, since one is quite poor in the begining, so there was several payments. It might be those very values listed in the screenshoot: "deals" -4, -10, -8 = 22 gold/turn. Those values look familiar. :)
 
Okay, giving tribute to civs is actually really effective. I'm going to rethink my playstyle.

I gave Indonesia +20 GPT early on and they didn't DoW me even though my entire military was composed of a scout and a horseman. It's now Turn 200, I haven't made any new deals (didn't renew the initial +20 GPT) and the +1 or +2 GPT I send every now and then to keep the bonus as strong as it can be and I haven't been DoWed once on Immortal difficulty. My military is utterly pitiful, I have like two comp bows, a skirmisher, and a knight/explorer away from the border. Yet I haven't been DoW'ed. This is amazing.
 
Okay, giving tribute to civs is actually really effective. I'm going to rethink my playstyle.

I gave Indonesia +20 GPT early on and they didn't DoW me even though my entire military was composed of a scout and a horseman. It's now Turn 200, I haven't made any new deals (didn't renew the initial +20 GPT) and the +1 or +2 GPT I send every now and then to keep the bonus as strong as it can be and I haven't been DoWed once on Immortal difficulty. My military is utterly pitiful, I have like two comp bows, a skirmisher, and a knight/explorer away from the border. Yet I haven't been DoW'ed. This is amazing.

That is exactly the goal. You want to become their favourit trade partner and hopefully they have another neighbour, which can be their target for war. To get the "+34" Trade Partner bonus is very important, it cancels the mali from "territorial disputes" and possible "different social policy". But I have to warn you guys, if they cant expand in another direction and keep focusing the military approach, it wont still be a guarantee to stay untouched.
 
But I have to warn you guys, if they cant expand in another direction and keep focusing the military approach, it wont still be a guarantee to stay untouched.

Well I just want to say that, the zulus in my game, finaly attacked me even though we were in the "positives", but it wasn't until about "1000 a.d." and by then my empire had become pretty solid and thus I had no problems fighting them off (thanks mostly due to the terrain). So they can obviously come for you even though you have a +35 trade relationship with them (and -25 territorial, -5 divergent social policy). I was a little surprised though, becasue it hadn't happened before, not until some other negative factor had become involved, like, befriending one of their enemies, not wanting to go to war with them etc.

I guess the negative factor in this case was as you said: They had nowhere else to expand.
 
That is exactly the goal. You want to become their favourit trade partner and hopefully they have another neighbour, which can be their target for war. To get the "+34" Trade Partner bonus is very important, it cancels the mali from "territorial disputes" and possible "different social policy". But I have to warn you guys, if they cant expand in another direction and keep focusing the military approach, it wont still be a guarantee to stay untouched.

Well, I was actually Indonesia's only neighbour in that game. Other civs reachable by sea from Indonesia are friends with Indonesia. Yet I haven't been DoWed. I have trade routes running to them now as well but I literally haven't made any significant payments other than the initial +20 GPT which is why I'm surprised they haven't DoW'ed me yet. We even had friction over a city-state (though that modifier has since disappeared....playing with transparent diplomacy) but still no DoW despite a horrendously bad army on my part and Indonesia also having a tech/policy lead.

No shared religion either.
 
Well I just want to say that, the zulus in my game, finaly attacked me even though we were in the "positives", but it wasn't until about "1000 a.d." and by then my empire had become pretty solid and thus I had no problems fighting them off (thanks mostly due to the terrain). So they can obviously come for you even though you have a +35 trade relationship with them (and -25 territorial, -5 divergent social policy). I was a little surprised though, becasue it hadn't happened before, not until some other negative factor had become involved, like, befriending one of their enemies, not wanting to go to war with them etc.

I guess the negative factor in this case was as you said: They had nowhere else to expand.
This is like the joke of the bear and the sneakers.

Two friends see a wild bear in the forest and one of them quickly put his sneakers on. The other guy says, 'Do you really expect to run faster than the bear?', and the first guy replies, 'No, I expect to run faster than you!'
 
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