Scouts need a buff

[Yzman]

I have been thinking about this and noticed after reading threads and just playing the game in general...scouts definitely need a buff.

1. Scouts upgrade but it is far too late. Basically at anytime during the game they will be instantly killed by almost anything.
2. The promotion for double XP for scouts. Does anyone actually use this card? I am guessing probably not, as the barbarian one is so obviously superior in every way, especially when your scouts are most likely going to be attacked by said barbarians. Buffing the scout may make this card actually a viable option.
3. Exploring with a unit like a slinger seems to be always preferable. Whenever exploring, you will run across barbs rather quickly and my scout always seems to get surrounded and killed. At least with a unit I have a fighting chance...not with a scout.

So how, if at all, do you think that scouts could be buffed to make them a little more worthwhile? I've had a few thoughts, some probably overpowered, some not, but just as ideas in general. I don't mean these as all together, but rather as options.

1. Start with a scout. This isn't really a buff, but gets rid of the choice of having to limit production by going for a scout early.
2. Have scouts ignore ZOC.
3. Have scouts ignore borders, similar to a missionary.
4. Have barbarians be less likely to attack scouts or straight up ignore scouts ( probably overpowered)
5. Bump up their strength slightly to that of perhaps a little less than a warrior, so they are viable early on for exploring but get quickly obsoleted.
6. More frequent upgrades. Scout to ranger is a bit limited, and ranger comes way too late. Maybe scout > explorer > ranger?

Thoughts?

 

[DeutschDachs]

I do kind of find them to be lackluster. In Civ V I would always build a scout to try to snake as many huts as possible and explore. In Civ VI their movement is not that much better than a standard warrior and they can barely defend themselves if you run into trouble. The medic upgrade was so useful in V. The policy, like you said, is pretty much garbage unless you're playing with no barbs. Even then it barely seems worth the effort to click on

 

[Pietato]

I completely agree. They need to suffer no penalties crossing rivers, and the Ranger needs to be cheaper.

 

[Leyrann]

For me, the only reason to use scouts (which isn't enough to actually build them) is that they don't give a negative diplomacy modifier for being close to an enemy's borders.

 

[Jarms48]

This is more wish listing, but I'd like an option similar to Civ: BE, where you can choose a bonus/unit before the start of the game. Say you can choose between warrior/scout/builder, perhaps the two latter would start you off with slightly less gold. Each option is basically early military, early exploration, early improvements. It would also make everyone's start even more diverse.

Though, the more realistic option, I'd be happy with 1 or 2. The former makes them move away from barbarian entrapment easier, the latter lets them continue exploring and prevents "border blocking". I'd then also agree with the OP to add an "Explorer" as an intermediate unit upgrade between the Scout and Ranger, somewhere in the Medieval era. The Explorer could have a combat strength of 30-35, with the same abilities the Scout had before it (the Ranger would also get a slight buff from this).

 

[Returning Lurker]

I'm not sure scouts ignoring borders would actually mean anything, since by the time other civilizations are getting Early Empire and locking off their lands the scout's prime (or the closest thing a scout gets to a prime) has already passed and you're better off just sending your monks to spy... er, go on a religious pilgrimage and record their findings for god.
As for what I'd change I'd probably allow them to treat all terrain as flat (because seriously what is the point of an added move if I can't even use it 90% of the time) and give them a chance to flee from combat like Incan slingers or caravels from V. Also your explorer idea is a solid one. Maybe have the explorer unlocked at cartography due to the whole "maps are 90% of an explorer's job" thing. Then again that still leaves 2 eras without a recon unit so... maybe 2 gap filling recon units? Wayfarer for the late classical/early medieval and Explorer for renaissance?

 

[NukeAJS]

Their upgrade should come sooner for starters. This'll make their upgrade more useful and the barbarians more problematic later on in the game (they get stomped too easily later in the game imo)

All scouts should ignore ZOC and ignore terrain movement penalties (except rivers). This will make them better at what they should be doing (scouting) while also being able to run away.

Because of the second point, their first two upgrades should change to "double defense while in forest/jungle or hills."

Lastly, they should be unable to attack. Putting all these together basically makes them weak, mini-horsemen and you could conceivably use 2-4 of them to take out units.

 

[Leyrann]

To be fair, scouts are quite strong already. I mean, they typically take at least one warrior with them despite being outnumbered 4 to 1.

 

[Pietato]

To be fair, scouts are quite strong already. I mean, they typically take at least one warrior with them despite being outnumbered 4 to 1.

What?

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

Yeah they are pretty useless after the first 20 turns - I only ever build one and it only pays off about half of the time. It would be kind of cool if you could upgrade them into a boat or provide them with a promotion that gives additional combat strength/movement for military units like great general (which makes total sense) or at the very least extra strength against barbarians.

 

[Leyrann]

What?

Have you never attacked a barbarian scout with your warrior unit? That lone scout with his stick and his dog that just stands there barking typically takes at least one of the four warriors attacking him.

 

[dunkleosteus]

Scouts should get faster movement along rivers after sailing. 10% better rewards from tribal villages.

An explorer unit in the medieval era.

 

[Cliomancer]

Perhaps there would be some use in making them support units who grant bonuses to defence from terrain for adjacent units and reduce it for adjacent enemies.
Also giving scouts the ability to use their last movement point to cross a river or enter a forest/hill like in Civ 5 would tie into their evasion combat style.

(Also yeah, an age of exploration scout upgrade would be welcome.

 

[dunkleosteus]

Military scouting would be cool for sure, perhaps enemy units don't get "hidden" type terrain bonuses when adjacent to scouts (ie no defense bonus from forests).

I also think conquistadors should be an upgrade of an explorer unit if one existed rather than a musketman.

 

[Leyrann]

Military scouting would be cool for sure, perhaps enemy units don't get "hidden" type terrain bonuses when adjacent to scouts (ie no defense bonus from forests).

I also think conquistadors should be an upgrade of an explorer unit if one existed rather than a musketman.

Not sure if I agree with that last one. I mean, there's a reason they're called "conquerers" and that isn't because they were exploring.

 

[dunkleosteus]

The conquistadors were at the front of new world exploration. I would view musketmen (representing infantry) as being the backbone of domestic warfare- Europe was a mosh pit of wars in the 16-19th century and thats what I see the musketmen as. The conquistadors were famous for cutting through the dense rainforests, treking through the andes and exploring south America. Every civ should have an explorer unit but Spain's should be better.

 

[Cliomancer]

The conquistadors were at the front of new world exploration. I would view musketmen (representing infantry) as being the backbone of domestic warfare- Europe was a mosh pit of wars in the 16-19th century and thats what I see the musketmen as. The conquistadors were famous for cutting through the dense rainforests, treking through the andes and exploring south America. Every civ should have an explorer unit but Spain's should be better.

Come to think of it, maybe having the Scout upgrade to a Wayfinder unit which grants improved terrain-crossing ability to attached units could be an option.

 

[gettingfat]

I don't think they need a boost in the strength. It's the new movement point (MP) system that gets them in trouble. In Civ5, 3 MP mean a scout can get through those big stretches of rainforests/forests/hills two tiles by a time, and can easily end up at a forested hill tile to get the big defense bonus and the longer line of sight. In Civ6, a scout needs to go one tile per turn in those landscapes, leaving a lone unused MP that serves only to irritate the players by forcing them to click the "skip turn". To go in full speed the scouts also frequently land at the flat tiles by the end of the turn which provide a shorter range of sight and no defense bonus so they die easily (especially with more horsed barbs after the recent patch). I'm also not clear if the scouts can give the player a better outcome when popping the goodie huts like in the previous games. So in short, using a scout often does not give the player much significant benefits in terms of exploring the map.

The scout seriously needs some sort of boost such as terrain-crossing ability, ignoring ZOC, retreat when attacked, etc, and needs the upgrade available much earlier and gives better outcome popping the goodie huts. As a balance they can forbid the scout from attacking cities (which I use a lot) or even AI units (but can still attack the barbs?).

The only issue I see is, under the new barb system, this may make the barb scouts even tougher to get killed. Can't imagine what will happen as the barbs in the current version is already like rampaging barbs in Civ5.

 

[dunkleosteus]

What if scouts could spend a movement point to fortify (instead of all their movement points) to become invisible when in a forest or jungle tile?

Then that one extra movement point could be put to good use by hiding the scout if barbarians are around.

 

[Ramalhão]

As for what I'd change I'd probably allow them to treat all terrain as flat (because seriously what is the point of an added move if I can't even use it 90% of the time) and give them a chance to flee from combat like Incan slingers or caravels from V.

Don't forget that barbarian scouts will be strengthened too. Sometimes it's hard to deal with barbarian scouts, so it will surely make the game harder in early game.

Also your explorer idea is a solid one. Maybe have the explorer unlocked at cartography due to the whole "maps are 90% of an explorer's job" thing.

I also agree with another recon unit. Cartography would be a nice spot for this new unit, but again, barbarians will be able to create them after some civs research cartography. I think this is a better solution because there wouldn't be any fast explorer unit in the beginning of the game.

The conquistadors were at the front of new world exploration. I would view musketmen (representing infantry) as being the backbone of domestic warfare- Europe was a mosh pit of wars in the 16-19th century and thats what I see the musketmen as. The conquistadors were famous for cutting through the dense rainforests, treking through the andes and exploring south America. Every civ should have an explorer unit but Spain's should be better.

Conquistador = conqueror, so it means someone who will conquer. I prefer the Portuguese word "bandeirante" (bandeira = flag), which were the guys who explored inner South America, moving fast along rivers and slaving enemy natives. Most bandeirantes were born of Portuguese and native unions and barely speak Portuguese. Speaking a native language helped them to deal with most tribes on their incursions in the forests and hills/mountains that exist here. By the way bandeirante would be a much representative unique unit for Brazil than a bought aircraft carrier.