SE vs CE: map differences?

[alex sword]

I've an idea that CE has a certain advantage over SE on huge maps vs normal maps. The opposite is true as well. SE on little map has an advantage. Reason is simple - you are allowed to have more cities and so more commerce is generated in CE. In the same time which of Great People abilities are map-adjusted?

1. Shrine - adjusted (there are more cities)
2. Scotlan Yard - not adjusted (it provides the same amount of EP, so on huge map this is not so strong)
3. Settling - not adjusted (their relative weight in economy is going to have less effect)
4. Lightbulbing - adjusted
5. Golden age - adjusted. Perhaps, this one is even better than on normal maps cause, in my opinion, tech costs penalty multiplier for huge maps is less than multiplier for number of commerce and production tiles you are working on in inductrious age and later when all map is used
6. Academy - not adjusted, weight of one city is relatively smaller
7. Corporations - the same as Shrine
8. Making deals by GM - adjusted

So, basically it seems Shrine, Corporations, Lightbulbing and Golden Age have higher priority. Golden Ages are even better.

So, what do you think about following strategy concerning great people on huge maps (especially if you are going for domination and so will have a large empire):
1) the only city you should build Academy in, is your Oxford city, other Academies if you really like them, you can capture from your neighbors
2) Scotland Yard(s) should be captured, don't spent your GSpy on this
3) shrines and corporations should be built if you've a chance
4) The rest - should do lightbulbing and golden ages. Also Merchants are allowed can make deals if you've problems with cash.

Experienced players, do you think this strategy makes sense? Especially I am interested to see your opinion concerning point 1. Please note I know about obsolete strategy which includes GP settling but I don't know if it works well on huge maps.

Thanks.

 

[AlessioCerci]

1) academies are good in any city that has high research. In many cases a 2nd 3rd etc are the best use of a GS
2)Work it out. If 100% Eps is better than 12Eps (which will then be multiplied by the relevant buildings remember) then build Scotland Yard. Early game infiltrations are obviously awesome
3)Shrines yes, Corps are too situational; if they seem like a good idea go for it.
4)Merchant prophet super specialists are quite good. Engineer is often used for rushing wonders. Golden ages also become quite costly as you have more of them.

In general i only ever play standard (smaller is rubbish, larger my comp cant handle) so i cant reli comment on the differences on map size so well.

 

[DaveMcW]

The extreme example is One City Challenge, where specialists are the only way to go.

 

[Winston Hughes]

specialists are the only way to go.

I'm tempted to put this in my sig.

 

[madscientist]

I used to play only huge maps, then went to standard with BTS. I gotta say I never saw much of a difference whether SE or CE depended on map size.

 

[Silence101]

I do a lot of agressive expansion in the early game - I don't think I could survive the early game without using science specialists to supplement my research. I rely on that strategy a lot. As the game progresses however, I tend to lean more in the CE direction. The same strategy has worked well for me regardless of map size.

 

[alex sword]

"The extreme example is One City Challenge, where specialists are the only way to go."

In fact, this is confirmation of my statement. More cities = GP matters less. Less cities - GP matters more. Silence101, however, made a good point. On higher levels (I am not ready to play immortal & deity), perhaps GP settling will allow performing expansion with better speed. Good point, and perhaps, if you play CE, early prophet is better than GS because it brings gold and allow you to put slider higher (you have 125% on research after libraries but markets come much later and they are relatively hard to build so only 100% on pure cash) and GP s easy to get by rushing Stonehedge (especially if you civ has mysticism).

Need to check if early GP helps with expansion. My current preference is to either rush GS to build academy or to rush Metals and so make GE to build pyramids if I've no early luxury resources. But academy does not work well in that stage when you do expansion and do not work many cottages. Will check if GP settling helps with expansion.

 

[lukep]

Some Great Priests settled in your capitol can easily put you in the black at 100% with 6 cities. Add Ankhor What? for more goodies

So yeah, on emperor+, Priest specialists are a strong play in the early-mid game. Later they may fell a bit behind though.

 

[Polobo]

While the absolute amounts of commerce/hammers/whatever will increase (as will the number of cities) as the map size increases the relative values compared to the AI (or human) opponents will be mostly similar. That plus the map size adjustments to the game make running one or the other mostly equal. This is not dissimilar to the difference between using the slider in a CE and using specialists in an SE but still having the same science output.

Re: OCC; a special case where you (not the map) are limiting the size of your empire while your opponents are not and thus not really applicable as a extrapolation of the proposed idea.

Re: GP Advantages (since GP can be generated in a CE reasonably well this isn't necessarily an advantage to the SE but a separate category in itself, keeping in mind the AI also generates GP - although only a few can found corporations/religions)

Lighbulbing - With more possible trading partners an early tech can be more advantageous; however relative to settling the raw beaker output is really what matters, not the proportion of beakers for a settled GSci compared to national output which is a relative measure.

Corps/Religions - Yes, the relatives power of religion/corporations should increase for larger map sizes; which helps to overcome some of the logistical disadvantages larger maps present. Since their supply is limited and larger maps usually have more civs present there are more non-founder civs that are at a disadvantage compared to you. Also, more resources are present on larger maps so the output is greater (as is the cost and need for the additional output). This mostly balances regardless of map size but smaller differences are magnified on larger map sizes.

Golden Ages: same benefit to the opponent although any differences in running them (number of ages/length) are magnified.

If you are running SE and have multiple cities running max scientists it would probably be worth while to build multiple academies so other cities can focus on using their food for non-science output.

Espionage is purely of relative benefit and thus not dependent upon map size.

 

[alex sword]

Lukep: yes, if one decides to settle the great person, the early priest will be probably the wisest choice cause this one is very effective for eartly expansion. One additional city means a lot in terms of early GNP. The great merchant will be even better option but it's not always feasible to get them so early. The only exception - you've a marble and so can rush ToA.

Polobo: you've made good points. But... Great spy settling. More cities = more courts (which I try to build ASAP in all my cities) = his 12 generated points will mater less as soon as you've many cities. That's why I said that map size change his value.

And don't forget that golden age on huge map in industrious age will give you (CE-style cities) about:
$25.6K = 40 cities (assumption you've a large empire) * 20 tiles * 200% (multipliers) * 16 turns (maraphon speed without Mausoleum)

plus a lot of food and hummers, which could be estimated together by $15K. So, benefits could be estimated as $40K. This is very good money. Any great person if you settle him or her after 1AD (not so many turns ahead) will give much less. However, 4000BC-1000BC settling will have much better investments return. 1000BC - 0AD period is under question.

Anyway, even before 1000BC, great spy settling (or scient) is worse than great merchant/prophet because merchant/prophet have a better synergy with early expansion.

Thanks.

 

[vicawoo]

More people to trade with means more profit from lightbulbing.

 

[alex sword]

Vicawoo: good point. So, if I understand you right, this one is additional argument to prioritize lighbulbing playing huge maps.

Thanks.

 

[Polobo]

Luke: I don't disagree with your GP conclusions but don't the same timeframe apply regardless of the map and length of game for the most part?

While more cities means more courthouses the same applies for your opponent so on a larger map it is harder to generate a significant percentage different in EP output compared to your opponents, which affects everything. Espionage in general is less effective on higher difficulties so in absolute terms a GSpy's value changes but all opponents have this issue. Now, it would be interesting to see generally the effects of the map on the ability to run an EE (either pure or hybrid) as well as the expected cost on larger maps to maintain a similar comparative espionage level on smaller maps (i.e., how much more commerce/EP does it take to maintain a 10% total EP generation lead compared to the avg/max/whatever AI EP generation level)?

 

[lukep]

polobo

In fact, i disagree largely with the OP. In my mind, huge maps favor largely SE over CE because of the production factor. Pushing all the infrastructure takes a long time in a CE due to the lack of hammers.

SE on the other hand, has both more hammers and bigger growth for whip, so it can use its lower output of gold a lot more efficiently during that time. In the end game, things reverse of course.

But the point is that the critical period is middle game (after liberalism).
In the early game, as i said, settled GPs take care of most of the problems

In my SE games, before liberalism, i need *ONE* GS (for academy) and as much GP and GE I can. After liberalism, i want GS indeed.

Note that i'm still on warlord, no bts on mac

 

[DaveMcW]

Pushing all the infrastructure takes a long time in a CE due to the lack of hammers.

Cottages are quite profitable with no infrastructure at all.