Secret Game Setting that Improves Exploration and Modern Ages

It would actually be super interesting if distant land civs were an age behind or at least have some option like this.
By having no AI civs in Distant Lands means there are a lot of Independent People who are similar to being an age behind. They do have the same tier unit when you encounter them but do not product as many and don't advanced the same way as the Civs but you can still engage with them by combat or diplomacy. They are spread out and don't fill in the map as much as I would like. It seems like an update to the IP spawning system could fix this relatively easily since they already wait to spawn on turn 2 to avoid collisions with the Civs so having more filling where the missing AI civs would have spawn should work well.
 
It would actually be super interesting if distant land civs were an age behind or at least have some option like this.
Why do you need them an age behind? If you want to dominate them just do it but having them needlessly hamstrung seems pointless
 
How did you get all 8 players on the Homeland? I would love to try that out.

I normally focus on 6 city worthy settlements and look to Distant Lands for further settlements in the Exploration age. This still leaves a lot of space in the Homeland but would be interesting to play a game where the Homeland even more constrained and fought over which means exploration age has more value to expand.
You need to edit the Map table, they have permutations for a number of combos (so this could be osmething they will eventually implement), one of them is having all 8 players on Homeland.

Though certain leaders seem to end up having spawn point forced to Distant Land (Archameid Xerxes kept spawning on Distant Land when I wanted to play that game)
 
What bugs me is that there is very little randomness in every game. You know how many AI you are going to be facing on your continent, and the general layout of the continents are always the same. To make matters worse, the number of Civs in each era are limited so you see the same ones over and over. With the game being new the leader list is short as well, so you see the same leaders every game.
 
I played a Tiny map with 1 AI Civ expecting them to spawn in Distant Lands, they spawned 15 tiles from me so I killed them lol.

heh, how I got my Playing God achievement. Especially since I don't normally play on deity, this is the easy way to get that achievement. in my case it was maybe 20 to 25 tiles away, they managed to get a 2nd city up, but they were no match for warriors and slingers.

I'll have to try some of these setups. Some variety in my games would be a welcome change.
 
I can dominate them already if I want, that really isn't the point. More of a roleplay of actual exploration age.
I strongly, strongly disagree that the inhabitants of the Americas were an 'age behind' irl.

Sure, they hadn't developed as advanced technology for killing each other as the Europeans had, but they also had highly organised and prosperous cities in urbanised landscapes, complex understanding of astronomy and rich, elaborate artistic traditions.
 
My idea was to have the distant lands face either a plague crisis or an invasion crisis that still affects them. So very low population, 1-3 settlements, with permanent low growth rate. Invasion is half their civ is conquered city-states. They still "compete" but at a disadvantage which is why you and your homeland civ are at an advantage to colonize.

I don't know why you have to compete with them, actually.

A good crisis for exploration would be your empire splitting in two and you have to pick which side you want, and the other picks up a new leader in the next age. In this vein, civil war "losers" can absorb weak exploration age settlements for modern. That way, the extra civs become equalized going into modern. Ah, but imagine people complaining about "losing half my cities if I ever seriously build in distant lands".
They did the empire splitting in Civ 3. You couldn't choose, just a load of cities rejecting you and forming their own country. Didn't really work for me, it could be very random and frustrating.
 
I strongly, strongly disagree that the inhabitants of the Americas were an 'age behind' irl.

Sure, they hadn't developed as advanced technology for killing each other as the Europeans had, but they also had highly organised and prosperous cities in urbanised landscapes, complex understanding of astronomy and rich, elaborate artistic traditions.
So did the Europeans and Asians and Africans a thousand plus years ago.
Admittedly the bigger problem the American civs faced was they failed the plague crisis on entry to Exploration. If that hadn't happened, the Americas might look more like Africa, heavily dominated but not nearly eliminated.

That said having a very different gameplay for Exploration Age interaction v. Antiquity interaction is a good thing, and having the option of only IPs in the new world makes it interesting.
 
So did the Europeans and Asians and Africans a thousand plus years ago.
My point is that I think the Americas - Mesoamerica in particular as the area I know most about - had these on a level which I think is inaccurate to describe as being an entire 'era behind' in comparison to contemporary European cultures outside of a loose eyeballing against western ideals and milestones of development.

That said having a very different gameplay for Exploration Age interaction v. Antiquity interaction is a good thing, and having the option of only IPs in the new world makes it interesting.
I agree a different way of interacting with other civs between antiquity and exploration would be a good thing, but I think it'd be more interesting to have a system that approaches how parts of the world develop in a variety of different ways rather than just mechanics that reinforce the idea that the americas were inferior to the west.
 
I agree a different way of interacting with other civs between antiquity and exploration would be a good thing, but I think it'd be more interesting to have a system that approaches how parts of the world develop in a variety of different ways rather than just mechanics that reinforce the idea that the americas were inferior to the west.
Market dynamics do a pretty good job of translating how a civilization's uniqueness produces an output that gets placed into relative valuation against the output of everyone else. Then, military power affects control over the rewards of trade. Everything else is just details.

We're not in a post-scarcity world yet, so history even up until now is tinged with colonialist flavors. Even diverse, unique, different colonized peoples engaged in exploitation and violence against others to one degree or another, so it's a strange moral position IMO. I think the element of Western chauvinism to be avoided is the rationalization of power as a product of deserving cultural traits. Ironically, post-colonial globalism is continuing this Western tradition, just through superficial self-hatred.

I like the idea that distant lands will be post-plague or post-invasion crisis and start the age with a large disadvantage. This makes the player and its neighbors the "winners" by luck of history, but that is how it goes...

I'm making an England mod right now, and their remarkable 17th century is infused with notions of destiny and culturally merited success. The Spanish also had similar ideas. It's not so much that we're validating these beliefs as universal, but recognizing that this is how these cultures believed at the time and it is part of their objective "success" in expanding and asserting political control and exerting cultural influence. We want to play these games like we're removed from what these civilizations were, like we don't belief in Amun-Ra or sacrifice to Tanit. But we are in fact part of some civilization or another, and the reason we possess a Western bias to a degree is because the West "won" the IRL game. It's hard to disentangle because this doesn't make the West superior, it just means that the West won, and so obviously the West will believe the West is superior or have that as part of its culture. We don't have a game where someone else besides the West won, but that would certainly be interesting.

It would be a legitimately indeterminant debate if two factions of sociologists debated whether some other version of "victory" after the exploration age could have created today's world, other than the expansionist, economic one obtained by the West. Some would be material determinists and insist that whoever had won history, had to become colonial. Others might argue there might have been other ways for the world to globalize. It's hard to make a game about things we don't know.

In my solution for the game, the distant lands will be weak and antiquity tiered. But you could be the mighty scientific Shawnee sailing up the benighted Thames River to trade with the poor, depopulated English. So the forms of Western bias remain, but the cultural identities embodying them don't have to be Western.
 
Market dynamics do a pretty good job of translating how a civilization's uniqueness produces an output that gets placed into relative valuation against the output of everyone else. Then, military power affects control over the rewards of trade. Everything else is just details.

We're not in a post-scarcity world yet, so history even up until now is tinged with colonialist flavors. Even diverse, unique, different colonized peoples engaged in exploitation and violence against others to one degree or another, so it's a strange moral position IMO. I think the element of Western chauvinism to be avoided is the rationalization of power as a product of deserving cultural traits. Ironically, post-colonial globalism is continuing this Western tradition, just through superficial self-hatred.

I like the idea that distant lands will be post-plague or post-invasion crisis and start the age with a large disadvantage. This makes the player and its neighbors the "winners" by luck of history, but that is how it goes...

I'm making an England mod right now, and their remarkable 17th century is infused with notions of destiny and culturally merited success. The Spanish also had similar ideas. It's not so much that we're validating these beliefs as universal, but recognizing that this is how these cultures believed at the time and it is part of their objective "success" in expanding and asserting political control and exerting cultural influence. We want to play these games like we're removed from what these civilizations were, like we don't belief in Amun-Ra or sacrifice to Tanit. But we are in fact part of some civilization or another, and the reason we possess a Western bias to a degree is because the West "won" the IRL game. It's hard to disentangle because this doesn't make the West superior, it just means that the West won, and so obviously the West will believe the West is superior or have that as part of its culture. We don't have a game where someone else besides the West won, but that would certainly be interesting.

It would be a legitimately indeterminant debate if two factions of sociologists debated whether some other version of "victory" after the exploration age could have created today's world, other than the expansionist, economic one obtained by the West. Some would be material determinists and insist that whoever had won history, had to become colonial. Others might argue there might have been other ways for the world to globalize. It's hard to make a game about things we don't know.

In my solution for the game, the distant lands will be weak and antiquity tiered. But you could be the mighty scientific Shawnee sailing up the benighted Thames River to trade with the poor, depopulated English. So the forms of Western bias remain, but the cultural identities embodying them don't have to be Western.
True, it's definitely easier to model game mechanics on real history and who 'won' irl (though of course that is by western metrics, but speculating about alternate ways to measure how cultures 'win' at existing would be a whole different discussion), however I think an interesting way to tackle the way Civ VII assigns the west as the default view/protagonists would be to reverse the roles.

The protagonistification of Europe is more present now in some ways than ever given how exploration legacy paths are designed around the colonisation of the americas, especially the economic path which currently cannot be completed by distant lands civs at all afaik. This wouldn't be a simple change, but I think it'd be much more interesting to have some games where you end up in the shoes of the colonised, having AI with stronger weapons turn up on your shores, intent on stealing your resources. A part of why I dislike the idea of the distant lands AI being an era behind is that theyd be weaker - I'd rather have more of a challenge than less. With some narrative event guidance I think it'd be fun to have to ally with other home continent AI in repelling an invading force.

The game will never be de-westernised, it's baked into the core principles of the franchise, but I think exploring alternative viewpoints to go alongside that will usually yield more interesting mechanics and ways for the game to pan out.
 
The protagonistification of Europe is more present now in some ways than ever given how exploration legacy paths are designed around the colonisation of the americas, especially the economic path which currently cannot be completed by distant lands civs at all afaik. This wouldn't be a simple change, but I think it'd be much more interesting to have some games where you end up in the shoes of the colonised, having AI with stronger weapons turn up on your shores, intent on stealing your resources. A part of why I dislike the idea of the distant lands AI being an era behind is that theyd be weaker - I'd rather have more of a challenge than less. With some narrative event guidance I think it'd be fun to have to ally with other home continent AI in repelling an invading force.
I've had a thought that splits the world into three regions, which are historically based but you can mix and match them easily. Each has 4 unique resources, two of which can be improved in a crafts house. So, if your homelands are one of the three regions, then there are 8 + 4 = 12 "distant lands" resources to obtain.

And, it would be fun if you start in the "invasion crisis" region, which would be analogous to Southern Song China where the North was conquered by Liang and Jurchen, but even so the South thrived and made bids to reclaim the North. It would be fun to start as a post-plague power and grind your way back into prominence.

Perhaps then there should be a third crisis, and you can pick from customization options how exploration begins, so you can choose to play the "European" region but instead of plague or invasion, there could be a "100 years war" destruction and depopulation crisis you're coming out of.

I agree with you it would be fun if there were three distant lands and they played the age as more or less equals. I think you have to have three lands, because in order for you to have access to the other shores as your distant lands and them to yours it's too binary and zero-sum. The person you're exploring can explore the other lands, who might be exploring you.
 
True, it's definitely easier to model game mechanics on real history and who 'won' irl (though of course that is by western metrics, but speculating about alternate ways to measure how cultures 'win' at existing would be a whole different discussion), however I think an interesting way to tackle the way Civ VII assigns the west as the default view/protagonists would be to reverse the roles.

The protagonistification of Europe is more present now in some ways than ever given how exploration legacy paths are designed around the colonisation of the americas, especially the economic path which currently cannot be completed by distant lands civs at all afaik. This wouldn't be a simple change, but I think it'd be much more interesting to have some games where you end up in the shoes of the colonised, having AI with stronger weapons turn up on your shores, intent on stealing your resources. A part of why I dislike the idea of the distant lands AI being an era behind is that theyd be weaker - I'd rather have more of a challenge than less. With some narrative event guidance I think it'd be fun to have to ally with other home continent AI in repelling an invading force.

The game will never be de-westernised, it's baked into the core principles of the franchise, but I think exploring alternative viewpoints to go alongside that will usually yield more interesting mechanics and ways for the game to pan out.
They could definitely make it more open to other paths.
...Treasure resources in each "Land" that need to go to a civ with a capital in the other "Land"
..and a peaceful diplomatic way to get treasure resources.
 
This is just me spit balling, but I wonder if you could have the same amount of civs spawning on the new continent, with the caveat being that they have a super low city cap so that they don't settle the entire new world. In my last game only Himiko and Napoleon were on the new continent, but they had basically settled everything by the time I arrived. When this happens, the economic victory is basically moot for the discovery age (as others have said). To make up for this limit, perhaps they could get a free settler after the discovery age begins, and have the penalty removed? Normally this would seem quite extreme, but I very rarely find enough space for 2-3 cities when I find the new continent.

My other thought was to have the civs spawn in with several settlers in discovery, but then it becomes weirder as they now have no history or older cities, which was far from the case with IRL history.
 
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