[NFP] Secret Societies Speculation

[Nerevatar]

I'm not sure if I got this right and assuming this doesn't changed randomly on each game, it seems each society has its own early game action that unlocks it, so which of these actions you do first in your game will determine which society you get.

• Hermetic Order is unlocked by discovering a Natural Wonder;
• Owl of Minerva is unlocked by sending an Envoy. I assume the envoy you get when you are the first to meet a CS counts;
• The Void Singers is unlocked by discovering a Tribal Village;
• They don't show the Sanguine Pact, but I'll assume it unlocks by discovering a Barbarian Encampment, since that fits the pattern and the militaristic theme of this society.

So, early game exploration got a twist. Now you should care about what you discover first out of these four things. Tribal villages, City-States and Barbarian Camps are more likely to be the first thing you discover, so the Hermetic Order will be a rare society to get, compared to others.

I hope you are correct. This makes the player adapt, instead of doing the usual preplanned stuff. And since the SS are fairly powerful, this will make each game more unique, even given the same map type, civ and opponents.

 

[blackcatatonic]

So I assume there is no way to bypass an unwanted choice and waiting for fulfilling another condition? Hmm, the more I think about it the more I would like to have it that way - this avoids just picking over and over the societies stacking on civ boni.

He says that you're not forced to use the governor title, so you can presumably skip unlocking that society and wait until you unlock the next one - or am I missing something?

 

[Josephias]

He says that you're not forced to use the governor title, so you can presumably skip unlocking that society and wait until you unlock the next one - or am I missing something?

Yes, as it is shown at 3:04 in the Ethiopia Pack video, you recevie a dialoge saying the society is discovered... you probably can just skip going to the governor screen and/or using the governor title, and if you discover other it probably will replace the one you skipped.

Which opens a different dilemma... e.g ¿do you skip the Owls of Minerva waiting for the Heremitic order, but maybe counting on them as a backup if it takes to much to find a NW? ¿But what happens if you trigger the cultists in the middle? ¿you lost the option of the Owls completely?

 

[Casworon]

I am surprised there are only four. That will mean multiple players will be following the same soctieties.

Kinda mixed on the fantastical element. On one hand i'm not the biggest fan. On the other we now have Cthulhu cultists which is a massive YES!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

• They don't show the Sanguine Pact, but I'll assume it unlocks by discovering a Barbarian Encampment, since that fits the pattern and the militaristic theme of this society.

So, early game exploration got a twist. Now you should care about what you discover first out of these four things. Tribal villages, City-States and Barbarian Camps are more likely to be the first thing you discover, so the Hermetic Order will be a rare society to get, compared to others. If I'm right about the Sanguine Pact trigger, you can play with Secret Societies but remove vampires if you turn off barbarians.

I was going to assume you had to clear the Barbarian Encampment and they want to join you because they see you have a thirst for blood.

But you're right that people who want to play with Secret Societies, but not vampires, could possibly just turn off barbarians.

 

[leandrombraz]

Yes, as it is shown at 3:04 in the Ethiopia Pack video, you recevie a dialoge saying the society is discovered... you probably can just skip going to the governor screen and/or using the governor title, and if you discover other it probably will replace the one you skipped.

Which opens a different dilemma... e.g ¿do you skip the Owls of Minerva waiting for the Heremitic order, but maybe counting on them as a backup if it takes to much to find a NW? ¿But what happens if you trigger the cultists in the middle? ¿you lost the option of the Owls completely?

I don't think it can be replaced. It seems more likely that once you find one, you're stuck with it, so your only choice is to either use the governor title to unlock that society ability or use it to unlock a governor.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I really like the idea of the Secret Societies, although want to find out more about how they work.

It will be a little disappointing if there’s no real challenge joining one and or no real malus. Actually, it would be quite weird if there’s no malus, given Secret Societies are sort of about destabilising societies and or taking control over governments.

I think more interesting than a straight malus would be if each society had its own agenda much like AI leaders do. If you obey and help them with these goals, everything is great. If you don't . . .

 

[tedhebert]

I'm not sure if I got this right and assuming this doesn't change randomly on each game, it seems each society has its own early game action that unlocks it, so which of these actions you do first in your game will determine which society you get.

• Hermetic Order is unlocked by discovering a Natural Wonder;
• Owl of Minerva is unlocked by sending an Envoy. I assume the envoy you get when you are the first to meet a CS counts;
• The Void Singers is unlocked by discovering a Tribal Village;
• They don't show the Sanguine Pact, but I'll assume it unlocks by discovering a Barbarian Encampment, since that fits the pattern and the militaristic theme of this society.

So, early game exploration got a twist. Now you should care about what you discover first out of these four things. Tribal villages, City-States and Barbarian Camps are more likely to be the first thing you discover, so the Hermetic Order will be a rare society to get, compared to others. If I'm right about the Sanguine Pact trigger, you can play with Secret Societies but remove vampires if you turn off barbarians.

Edit: You aren't forced to use the governor title on the secret society, so that opens up the option to unlock a governor earlier than we usually do.

So I assume there is no way to bypass an unwanted choice and waiting for fulfilling another condition? Hmm, the more I think about it the more I would like to have it that way - this avoids just picking over and over the societies stacking on civ boni.

He says that you're not forced to use the governor title, so you can presumably skip unlocking that society and wait until you unlock the next one - or am I missing something?

I don't think it can be replaced. It seems more likely that once you find one, you're stuck with it, so your only choice is to either use the governor title to unlock that society ability or use it to unlock a governor.

I'm more with @blackcatatonic on this one. It seems pretty clear to me that you CAN refuse one when it's offered. Now the question remains as @Josephias mentioned; If you don't accept right away, are you done with that possibility with no changing your mind ?

@leandrombraz , I'd be astonished if it worked the way you assume it will. The video shows that an option box appears on first meeting, so that seems to indicate pretty clearly that you will be able to refuse. Is there any specific reason why you feel there will be no choice ?

 

[leandrombraz]

@leandrombraz , I'd be astonished if it worked the way you assume it will. The video shows that an option box appears on first meeting, so that seems to indicate pretty clearly that you will be able to refuse. Is there any specific reason why you feel there will be no choice ?

It gives you the option to go to the governors screen or continue. The way it's presented, it looks more like when you excavate an artifact and it gives you the option to go to the great works screen, but it doesn't force you to go there. "Continue" is just a "let me deal with this later" button.

Aside from natural wonders, the triggers are all things that you usually find close to each other. Being able to refuse or replace the one you got would almost completely eliminate the impact of having different triggers for each society. The only impact it would have in gameplay is to make one Society harder to trigger early than others, which wouldn't affect the game in any meaningful way. The only way this makes sense is if the society you trigger first is the one you get.

 

[tedhebert]

It gives you the option to go to the governors screen or continue. The way it's presented, it looks more like when you excavate an artifact and it gives you the option to go to the great works screen, but it doesn't force you to go there. "Continue" is just a "let me deal with this later" button.

Aside from natural wonders, the triggers are all things that you usually find close to each other. Being able to refuse or replace the one you got would almost completely eliminate the impact of having different triggers for each society. The only impact it would have in gameplay is to make one Society harder to trigger early than others, which wouldn't affect the game in any meaningful way. The only way this makes sense is if the society you trigger first is the one you get.

Hmmm I honestly do not agree with you, but also think that your logic is sound. So I guess we'll see

To me, it didn't feel like the triggers were meant to force anything. They feel to me like they're all thing that WILL happen very early game on to anyone with any Civ choice and map type. And so, it seems to me that the choice of which SS to pick up will remain with the player, no matter in what order they pop up.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

For me, I think you'd have to have the choice because being stuck with a SS society would feel to constrained. After all, if I want to play pacifist I won't want the Sanguine Pact, if I'm playing Arabia I might prefer to keep my Madrasa rather than the Alchemic Society, and playing Inca I have no incentive to international trade routes because internal are must more interesting and the Owls of Minerva would not be used completely.

My take is that, on the screen when you have the choice between Go to Governor Screen and Continue, it means that the first choice would allow you to go to the governor screen to see the promotions of this SS and see if it's worth it, and Continue would simply accept without seeing it, making it easier for you.

But, again, it's kind of fuzzy and I can't wait to see how it will be handled.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I am surprised there are only four. That will mean multiple players will be following the same soctieties.

Kinda mixed on the fantastical element. On one hand i'm not the biggest fan. On the other we now have Cthulhu cultists which is a massive YES!

Yeah it does seem a bit odd flavorfully. If the point of secret societies is that they operate universally, without state loyalty and often trying to puppeteer multiple nations toward their higher agenda...then how is it that said puppet states can still act as if they are independent and opposed to each other?

We can lampshade it here and there with stuff like Voidsingers are a force of chaos or vampires have different houses. We can also handwave it generally as civs allied with the same society actually are on the same side but must keep up appearances.

But it's still a little weird.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Yeah it does seem a bit odd flavorfully. If the point of secret societies is that they operate universally, without state loyalty and often trying to puppeteer multiple nations toward their higher agenda...then how is it that said puppet states can still act as if they are independent and opposed to each other?

We can lampshade it here and there with stuff like Voidsingers are a force of chaos or vampires have different houses. We can also handwave it generally as civs allied with the same society actually are on the same side but must keep up appearances.

But it's still a little weird.

I don't see an issue with it. Let's suppose the Owls of Minerva are here solely to gain money. They're not part of the state, but they try to inflitrate it just enough to have enough money. But after that, what the state does, they don't care, as long as their interests are not jeopardize.

Or the Hermetic Order. They seek knowledge and are focused on their researched. They sway governments only to have haven where they can do their "dubious" experiments and have enough founds to make their researches, but if the state goes to war with another state where the Hermetic Order is implanted, they don't care because, for them, it's the same.

Better take on it: by letting states being focused on their owns troubles, wars, economies and cultures, they don't look too deep into what the SS do... because if they did, they might not like it and thus get rid of them.

 

[steveg700]

I think if the Ethiopia pack is successful enough, they might consider adding more secret societies. I could see the DLC packs testing the waters for what they might expand on in season 2. The plus side is it would probably have an assassins' guild and a white lotus organization. The minus side is I bet werewolves.

They seem pretty strongly influenced by the various Illuminati organizations in Steve Jackon Games' Illuminati card game, which include fantastical things like vampires and Cthulhu cultists.

And as far as I can tell, it's just more bonuses, more showering civ's with freebies. No gameplay impact beyond the "moreness" of it all.

 

[Piranga]

After seeing how little effort went into the "apocalypse mode", I expect almost nothing from secret societies. Maybe making some big unbalanced change (a few op missions) to spies or something.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

After seeing how little effort went into the "apocalypse mode", I expect almost nothing from secret societies. Maybe making some big unbalanced change (a few op missions) to spies or something.

Did you see the update information and the video yesterday? It's a lot more going on than Apocalypse mode.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ethiopia-update-discussion-thread.660504/

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Did you see the update information and the video yesterday? It's a lot more going on than Apocalypse mode.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ethiopia-update-discussion-thread.660504/

I'd venture to guess that the bigger mechanical expansions are accompanying the single civ DLC packs, while it is presumed that two civs is enough to carry smaller modes like Apocalypse.

 

[acluewithout]

And as far as I can tell, it's just more bonuses, more showering civ's with freebies. No gameplay impact beyond the "moreness" of it all.

Agreed. Secret Societies look fun. But I’m guessing there won’t be any negative impacts or trade offs (beyond using up Governor titles), ie it’s all just more bonuses, so I don’t think the SS will deepen the game much. I hope I’m wrong about that - something as sinister as Secret Societies should have real trade offs and create risks for your society.

It’ll also be disappointing if Secret Societies don’t have some interaction with the World Congress - a literal world government - and just espionage in general.

In fairness to FXS, they presumably have to balance scope and resources / timing, meaning that these Game Modes are all going to have to be a little less expansive mechanically. Hopefully FXS can go back and tweak the more popular game modes here and there to expand them a little. I mean, if we can have a “Season 2” of Red Death, I don’t see any reason we couldn’t have small expansions to Apocalypse and Secret Societies.

[edit: expand a few points re WC.]

 

[The googles do nothing]

Its a missed opportunity that secret societies are not unlocked by negative events. i guess the idea is that in every game you get the opportunity to join. i can see a catch up mode where loosing a city early or your cap does the unlocking.

also, secret societies? a giant flaming obelisk in the center of town is not a great way to keep a secret.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'd venture to guess that the bigger mechanical expansions are accompanying the single civ DLC packs, while it is presumed that two civs is enough to carry smaller modes like Apocalypse.

Do you think a bigger game mode would be in the one with the alt leader as well?
That would mean we could get a smaller game mode next time and then 3 bigger modes to end with.