Seeking Wonder Advice

[Switch625]

I have the opportunity to rush build a wonder, and I have to choose between Sun Tzu's Art of War, and Sistine Chapel. The game is Regent, large map, 8 civs, continents, I'm the Persians, and my neighbors are the Babylonians (with whom I've fought two wars) and the Zulus.

Which wonder should I choose? I will, without a doubt, lose the other one.

 

[Ohwell]

I would go with Sun Tsu's. It counts as a barracks in each city...

I think it doesn't expire...

 

[DagorFunk]

I would go with Sistine's. Barrack's are pretty cheap and those extra three happy faces (assuming you build Cathedrals) are a great help. WLTK days can be a huge bonus and when your cities start to get bigger it becomes increasingly difficult to keep them happy. YOu won't have to invest as much money in luxuries which means more for techs.

 

[SirPleb]

It very much depends on how you want to play the remainder of the game. If you'll be going for conquest, or even for a lot of warfare, I'd say take Sun Tzu's for sure.

If you are planning to play a mostly peaceful game then Sistine Chapel.

Another important consideration is the type of land. Sun Tzu's gives a free (that's another nice consideration here - no payments to maintain them) Barracks in every city on same continent. Sistine Chapel I think (I rarely build it so I can't be positive) affects Cathedrals in all your cities. If you're nearly done with the other Civs on your continent, the value of Sun Tzu's is a bit less than if you'll be warring a lot more there.

If it were me I'd take Sun Tzu's, but I have been known to enjoy being a greedy war-monger

 

[loki]

Depends on the kind of map. If it's a big continent, go for suntzu.
A free barrack in every towns means :

- instant units upgrade in every city : great if you are sneak attacked.

- all units produced are veterans.

- defenders fully heal every turn.

If you really need those three happy faces, I would suggest building suntzu and go for war to grab several luxuries.

loki

 

[Switch625]

Well, I finally decided to take the advice of the war-mongers and rush-build Sun Tzu's. Good thing, too, because two turns later the stinking Zulus declared war on me. They travelled through Bab territory to get to me, so I thought I might as well bring them into it, too.

The ending wasn't pretty. The Babs ended in the dustbin of history, but the Zulus were made of MUCH stronger stuff. Holy Moses, what a meat-grinder. The war finally ended in a stalemate, which was bad news for me. I was counting on being able to conquer the Zulus.

I had slightly less than half the continent, and about half of THAT territory was recently conquered cities (the Babylonian donation to my cause). The Zulus could, quite simply, produce me to death. At 1000 AD, I threw in the towel.

My first time out as the Persians ended in a humiliating defeat.

Those Immortals ROCK, though! I'm going to have to try Persia again.

 

[medgen]

loki,
you said that barracks give you instant upgrades. They only give me the option to upgrade if i pay money.
Also, about going to war to grab extra luxuries... how does this work? If let say i have gems and i conquer an ai city and get another gem square then doesn't this extra gem just be used for trading? When it says i have 1 or 2 extra gems then do i get the benfits of all or just the first?
Sorry to ask so many questions, just one more..
in trading lets say i have 3 extra gems and i want to trade it. It seems that i am forced to trade all 3. Is there any way of just trading 1 of your extra???

 

[davidttm]

Originally posted by medgen
loki, you said that barracks give you instant upgrades. They only give me the option to upgrade if i pay money.

Also, about going to war to grab extra luxuries... how does this work?

in trading lets say i have 3 extra gems and i want to trade it. It seems that i am forced to trade all 3. Is there any way of just trading 1 of your extra???

I think loki means that because you have a barracks in every city you don't have to cycle your troops to a barracks city in order to upgrade.

Each luxury that is connected by a road to your capital gives one happy citizen. If you have access to eight different luxuries then the capital (and any other city connected by road) has eight happy citizens. Building a marketplace gives you even more happy faces if you have more than (I think) three different luxuries. If you already have one of each type, then grabbing more of the same type won't help happiness, only trade.

On the trade screen it DOES look like you are trading all three, but you aren't. Example: If you have 3 gems and trade gems to the Romans; now go to the Iroquois and you will have 2 gems to trade; now go to the Americans and you will have 1 gem to trade. If you go to the English, gems will no longer show up as a possible trade for you.

 

[john heidle]

davidttm wrote:
"On the trade screen it DOES look like you are trading all three, but you aren't. Example: If you have 3 gems and trade gems to the Romans; now go to the Iroquois and you will have 2 gems to trade; now go to the Americans and you will have 1 gem to trade. If you go to the English, gems will no longer show up as a possible trade for you."

I have NEVER seen this. Trade seems to be a block move. This is hard to check because the F2 trade advisor screen is poorly designed (why doesn't it show what resources the other civs could use?). If I trade 3 gems to one civ, I have never seen gems appearing as a possible trade item for other civs.

John Heidle

 

[Switch625]

Originally posted by john heidle
davidttm wrote:
"On the trade screen it DOES look like you are trading all three, but you aren't. Example: If you have 3 gems and trade gems to the Romans; now go to the Iroquois and you will have 2 gems to trade; now go to the Americans and you will have 1 gem to trade. If you go to the English, gems will no longer show up as a possible trade for you."

I have NEVER seen this. Trade seems to be a block move. This is hard to check because the F2 trade advisor screen is poorly designed (why doesn't it show what resources the other civs could use?). If I trade 3 gems to one civ, I have never seen gems appearing as a possible trade item for other civs.

John Heidle

Davidttm is 100% correct, but he left one thing out. If the civ you wish to trade with ALREADY HAS access to gems, gems are NEVER a tradable item with them.

At the Trade Advisor screen, move your mouse over the pic of the civ leader you are wanting to trade with. The advisor will then tell you whether or not you have anything the other civ might want.

 

[No.Dice]

I'd have taken the sistine chapel. Thats 6 content faces for each cathedral, combined with the obligatory temple, and colosseum, thats enough to keep more than half of a metropolis happy. Add luxaries and marketplaces, and 10% on the entertainment slider and you're set.

I've stayed at war as a democracy for thousands of years and barely felt any war weariness with the chapel. I do tend to make a mad dash for every luxary i see though.

 

[simwiz2]

i think you made the right choice with suntzu's. Having veteran units is extremely helpful, and it saves you the maintainence cost of barracks. Also like someone else said it is so much easier to upgrade. If you want happiness you can always get JS Bachs, but if you miss sun tzu then you are going to have a lot of barracks that you will have to build, or have an untrained army.

 

[eyrei]

I consider the most important wonders those whose effects cannot be duplicated and do not expire. The Sistine Chapel is one of these, as are The Colossus(although it does expire with flight, but this is a long time), Newton's, Copernicus', Universal Suffrage, The UN, and to some extent JS Bach's and Magellan's. Sun Tzu's effects can easily be replicated, and it is in fact hardly necessary to have a barracks in every city. The Pyramids effects can also be duplicated. A lot of it has to do with how effective your economy is. If you can afford to build and maintain barracks in every city, there is very little use for Sun Tzu's.

 

[Shaitan]

I prefer the Sistine Chapel over Sun Tzu. Happy peeps do amazing things in running a corruption reduced civilization.

A note on luxuries - you do not get 1 happy face per luxury. The more luxuries you have, the more happy faces successive luxuries give you. Here's the breakdown:

1st and 2nd lux give each
3rd and 4th lux give each
5th and 6th lux give each
7th and 8th lux give each

So, if you have all 8 luxuries you will have 20 happy faces in each city.

 

[Grey Fox]

Originally posted by Shaitan
I prefer the Sistine Chapel over Sun Tzu. Happy peeps do amazing things in running a corruption reduced civilization.

A note on luxuries - you do not get 1 happy face per luxury. The more luxuries you have, the more happy faces successive luxuries give you. Here's the breakdown:

1st and 2nd lux give each
3rd and 4th lux give each
5th and 6th lux give each
7th and 8th lux give each

So, if you have all 8 luxuries you will have 20 happy faces in each city.

Remember that this is only true if you have a Marketplace in the city...

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by Grey Fox


Remember that this is only true if you have a Marketplace in the city...

Right you are. Marketplace is necessary to get the full effect of luxuries. Wouldn't a wonder that put a marketplace in every city be oh so nice?

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Shaitan


Right you are. Marketplace is necessary to get the full effect of luxuries. Wouldn't a wonder that put a marketplace in every city be oh so nice?

I think it would also be way too powerful. Marketplaces are pretty expensive to build because they have great effect both on happiness and income.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by eyrei


I think it would also be way too powerful. Marketplaces are pretty expensive to build because they have great effect both on happiness and income.

You're probably right, but it would still be oh so nice

 

[SirPleb]

Originally posted by Shaitan Wouldn't a wonder that put a marketplace in every city be oh so nice?

Since Marketplaces have so much effect on happiness (in effect they add 12 per city if you have 8 luxuries) I consider Smith's Trading to already be almost a must-have wonder, one of the most valuable wonders. With Smith's, it is easy to justify putting Marketplaces everywhere, even in the outlying max-corruption towns which cannot pay their own maintenance.

In the long term Marketplaces are the killers - 12 happiness! Much better (in the long term, and especially in outlying cities) than Sistine's which gets 3 happiness, and only gets it when you build an expensive Cathedral which also costs money to maintain. (Hard to justify a 2 gold/turn improvement in every city which produces only 1 gold/turn )