Settle Navigable River Tile

[Douglas Oak]

Givin that one of the main reason for ALOT of major cities is to CONTROL navigable rivers. (Paris and London come to mind) it's just weird that cities CAN'T be biult on those tiles.

 

[ehecatzin]

Perhaps they are saving that ability for other civs with nav river bonuses, or one that's thematic, maybe something Hungary could use, a la Budapest.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Perhaps they are saving that ability for other civs with nav river bonuses, or one that's thematic, maybe something Hungary could use, a la Budapest.

Sumer comes to mind with Uruk starting along the Euphrates, but it could also be given to other Mesopotamian civs like Babylon. I could also easily see the Dutch having an ability like that as well, though I could also easily see bonuses and start biases towards just "Wet" tiles, since that's a thing now.
I'm sure the Norse or some related Scandinavia civ will have an ability to deal with navigable rivers, I'm just not sure if it will be along the lines of settling.

 

[RedCourtJester]

Perhaps they are saving that ability for other civs with nav river bonuses, or one that's thematic, maybe something Hungary could use, a la Budapest.

In general when I look at how bland a lot of the base game civ design is, this is likely the reason why we don't see a lot of design space being used.

Given Bulgaria's description, it has decent odds of inheriting the "Pearl of the Danube" style gameplay that Hungary had. Which admittedly will be a little sad, given that Budapest is the most iconic representation of the idea and the Danube literally splits Hungary. I actually hope they don't give it to Bulgaria and still save that design space for an eventual Hungary addition (along with hot spring baths which I doubt many other civs would reasonably lay claim to).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I actually hope they don't give it to Bulgaria and still save that design space for an eventual Hungary addition (along with hot spring baths which I doubt many other civs would reasonably lay claim to).

I could easily see the Ottomans get a Hammam building, as part of a larger Külliye unique quarter. Of course, many of the baths in Hungary were built when it was under Ottoman rule.

 

[RedCourtJester]

I could easily see the Ottomans get a Hammam building, as part of a larger Külliye unique quarter. Of course, many of the baths in Hungary were built when it was under Ottoman rule.

Especially if they are modern, yes, I would not be surprised at all to see "Turkish baths."

Although I think the way the devs are adding new civs belies that they learned not to squander very niche/unique features on the "BIG" hitting civs. The fact that they are knocking out smaller ideas like Bulgaria before they add Byzantium, or Iceland before Norse/Denmark, etc. etc. The idea being that, given the sheer scope of a superpower like the Ottomans, you can always find some design angles to lean into even after a unique "bath" has been allocated to another civ. Examples that I think illustrate some aspects of what I am talking about:

1. Hungary's "bath" unique, although pretty unique mechanically, had a bit of its thunder stolen by Rome's design in base game. To my knowledge no other UB/UD/UI really coincided conceptually with the others like that, other than maaaaybe Roman and Maori forts and the Nubian/Egyptian (and Sumerian) pyramids. Note that this time around, Rome does not have unique baths or forts.

2. The Ottomans use of barbary corsairs (and Grand Bazaar) and to a lesser extent Mali's use of Mandekalu cavalry (and Seguba) ate up a lot of the potential design space for a Morocco civ. We have seen what is possibly evidence of correcting this by Songhai not receiving a cavalry military UU; remains to be seen how the Ottomans are represented.

3. As a sort of inverse observation, Byzantium was added late to VI, and yet had no trouble crafting a niche for itself, despite Ottomans, Hungary, Russia, and Georgia already in the game with various features one might expect to see in a Byzantium civ (naval powers/governors, city state suz bonuses, lavra/religion and culture, and golden age bonuses, respectively; plus general regional/cultural adjacencies). Any sufficiently enduring, large-scale power has a lot of ways it can be represented mechanically as compared to more localized paradigms.

4. Speaking of Russia, I suspect that part of the reason for designing "Russia" away from religion (in addition to the happiness consolidation and maybe conserving general religious design space for an expansion), was the recognition that Russia can be designed many ways whereas they may want to save the "religious quarter" idea for a civ with smaller design space. The obshchina is a remarkably interesting choice, in that respect, as I don't think any other modern civs would compete well for that specific design space.

5. As yet another observation, clearly the devs had no plans to carve out another Indian civ that could use the Stepwell, so they just gave it to the Mughals. Although it really doesn't suit them and is perhaps the laziest civ design so far. Similarly, Greece still has the amphitheatre so we can assume they felt safe that they weren't depriving any civs of design space, much the same as Persia's paradaiza, Inca's terrace farms, Mongolia's ortoo, Arabia's madrasa, and effectively a soft-remake of Maya's observatory (which is likely pointing at other design spaces for the Aztec outside of the Tlachti).

6. Other "design spaces" I think may be hinted at being conserved by current redesigns: kampung (no longer Majapahit, could be pointing toward antiquity Melayu/Srivijaya or modern Brunei/Singapore), presat (arguably given to and expanded on with Majapahit, but also possibly retaining design space for exploration Burma or Tibet), mission (no longer Spain, could be pointing toward exploration Teutons/Crusaders?), hansa (again, maybe Teutons or something/someone representing the Hanseatic League), and mayyyyybe the removal of film studio and electronics factory as suggesting they may return in some sort of "corporations" revamp that is more equitable to all Atomic Era civs.

 

[GeneralZift]

I don't believe reserving 'settling on Rivers' for specific Civilisations is a good idea -- Civ is supposed to allow you to lead your people in any way you see fit, and it makes no sense for particular Civs to be able to put Cities on a Navigable River and some Civs can't.

Perhaps it's one of those things that'll be patched in via expansion.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

1. Hungary's "bath" unique, although pretty unique mechanically, had a bit of its thunder stolen by Rome's design in base game. To my knowledge no other UB/UD/UI really coincided conceptually with the others like that, other than maaaaybe Roman and Maori forts and the Nubian/Egyptian (and Sumerian) pyramids. Note that this time around, Rome does not have unique baths or forts.

Roman forts really aren't unique. They aren't even on the loading screen or main menu and are conceptually the same as regular forts, they can just be built earlier.

2. The Ottomans use of barbary corsairs (and Grand Bazaar) and to a lesser extent Mali's use of Mandekalu cavalry (and Seguba) ate up a lot of the potential design space for a Morocco civ. We have seen what is possibly evidence of correcting this by Songhai not receiving a cavalry military UU; remains to be seen how the Ottomans are represented.

No problem there as surely Ottomans would probably get Janissaries. Corsairs right now at least are an Exploration IP suzerain ability.

3. As a sort of inverse observation, Byzantium was added late to VI, and yet had no trouble crafting a niche for itself, despite Ottomans, Hungary, Russia, and Georgia already in the game with various features one might expect to see in a Byzantium civ (naval powers/governors, city state suz bonuses, lavra/religion and culture, and golden age bonuses, respectively; plus general regional/cultural adjacencies). Any sufficiently enduring, large-scale power has a lot of ways it can be represented mechanically as compared to more localized paradigms.

4. Speaking of Russia, I suspect that part of the reason for designing "Russia" away from religion (in addition to the happiness consolidation and maybe conserving general religious design space for an expansion), was the recognition that Russia can be designed many ways whereas they may want to save the "religious quarter" idea for a civ with smaller design space. The obshchina is a remarkably interesting choice, in that respect, as I don't think any other modern civs would compete well for that specific design space.

If Kyivan Rus' becomes a civ, I would say they should definitely get the Lavra this iteration.

5. As yet another observation, clearly the devs had no plans to carve out another Indian civ that could use the Stepwell, so they just gave it to the Mughals. Although it really doesn't suit them and is perhaps the laziest civ design so far. Similarly, Greece still has the amphitheatre so we can assume they felt safe that they weren't depriving any civs of design space, much the same as Persia's paradaiza, Inca's terrace farms, Mongolia's ortoo, Arabia's madrasa, and effectively a soft-remake of Maya's observatory (which is likely pointing at other design spaces for the Aztec outside of the Tlachti).

I would agree that the Stepwell was lazy. Maybe they didn't want to double down on a Charbagh (Mughal Garden) because of Persia's? Of course, it's not like they didn't have other options like a Karkhana (manufacturing workshop for craftsmen and my preference) or Qila (fortress).
The Maya's quarter contains a ball court and pyramid, which in my mind at least opens up the opportunity for the Aztecs to receive a chinampa.

 

[Phrozen]

Sumer comes to mind with Uruk starting along the Euphrates, but it could also be given to other Mesopotamian civs like Babylon. I could also easily see the Dutch having an ability like that as well, though I could also easily see bonuses and start biases towards just "Wet" tiles, since that's a thing now.
I'm sure the Norse or some related Scandinavia civ will have an ability to deal with navigable rivers, I'm just not sure if it will be along the lines of settling.

Dutch could have a dam improvement considering any Dutch town or city that ends with dam is referring to a dam being there ie Amsterdam being Dam on the river Amstel. Perhaps including it into a plein unique district with a weigh house.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Dutch could have a dam improvement considering any Dutch town or city that ends with dam is referring to a dam being there ie Amsterdam being Dam on the river Amstel. Perhaps including it into a plein unique district with a weigh house.

I'm biased towards polders, so I do hope they come back and can hopefully get proper land reclamation ability along with it. That is turning water yields to land yields when a polder is built, and land units could move onto it.
Basically, like a reverse Buganda improvement where it turns land into lake yields.

 

[Lord Lakely]

In general when I look at how bland a lot of the base game civ design is, this is likely the reason why we don't see a lot of design space being used.

Given Bulgaria's description, it has decent odds of inheriting the "Pearl of the Danube" style gameplay that Hungary had. Which admittedly will be a little sad, given that Budapest is the most iconic representation of the idea and the Danube literally splits Hungary. I actually hope they don't give it to Bulgaria and still save that design space for an eventual Hungary addition (along with hot spring baths which I doubt many other civs would reasonably lay claim to).

Eh, but then not centered around the Danube itself, surely? The Danube is Bulgaria's Northern border, and it makes little sense to have a bonus for tiles directly across a city centre from a river, like it does for Budapest and Hungary.

Nah, the most likely angle I think is religion. We don't have a religion based Civ in exploration yet, and Bulgaria could fit that bill quite well. Additional narrative events leading into more religious tenets is something that would suit them quite well, while the rest of the kit focuses on expansion and defence.

I don't believe reserving 'settling on Rivers' for specific Civilisations is a good idea -- Civ is supposed to allow you to lead your people in any way you see fit, and it makes no sense for particular Civs to be able to put Cities on a Navigable River and some Civs can't.

Perhaps it's one of those things that'll be patched in via expansion.

There's nothing wrong with terrain bonuses, especially if they reward players for expanding into certain biomes. Bulgaria is almost certainly not getting a terrain bonus though; the two biomes that makes the most sense are Rivers and Mountains, and both have already been taken by the Shawnee and Incans respectively.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Nah, the most likely angle I think is religion. We don't have a religion based Civ in exploration yet, and Bulgaria could fit that bill quite well. Additional narrative events leading into more religious tenets is something that would suit them quite well, while the rest of the kit focuses on expansion and defence.

I'd consider the Abbasids and Majapahit religious, though I guess Abbasids lean a little more into science and the only religious thing they have is their mosque UB, and possibly their associated wonder if they are able to build it.
But I guess more components than just having infrastructure or units is what you mean. I am surprised that Spain got nothing in regard to religion.

 

[RedCourtJester]

Roman forts really aren't unique. They aren't even on the loading screen or main menu and are conceptually the same as regular forts, they can just be built earlier.

No problem there as surely Ottomans would probably get Janissaries. Corsairs right now at least are an Exploration IP suzerain ability.

Yeah I do expect Ottomans to maybe get Janissairies and maybe Grand Viziers as civilian uniques. Although some other civs like Cordoba/Almoravids could feasibly use viziers, I think Ottomans are safely the strongest example of it, as well as representing a nice tie-back to the Abbasids.

Although I am not sure if suz abilities will stay unique to city-states or get swapped out like IPs. Especially looking at Kasbahs ("Morocco") and Open-Air Museums (Sweden), but a few others call-back to prior civ designs like Sumeria and "Polynesia." For all we know "Corsair" will be replaced with something else and be allocated to the Pirate Republic.

If Kyivan Rus' becomes a civ, I would say they should definitely get the Lavra this iteration.

Also a quick google suggests that Muscovy would also align very much with a Lavra UI/UB/UQ. It could go either way, but I would also consider this fairly likely.

The biggest counterargument I would see is if there are enough other civs like Tibet or Burma which would prefer monastery uniques, although given the sheer number of "financy" and "production" UBs one would think they could differentiate at least two of those.

I would agree that the Stepwell was lazy. Maybe they didn't want to double down on a Charbagh (Mughal Garden) because of Persia's? Of course, it's not like they didn't have other options like a Karkhana (manufacturing workshop for craftsmen and my preference) or Qila (fortress).
The Maya's quarter contains a ball court and pyramid, which in my mind at least opens up the opportunity for the Aztecs to receive a chinampa.

I feel like a lot of "fortress" uniques will be forgone, which would explain why qila was not used. And karkhana does feel very similar conceptually both to the Chola UBs/UQ as well as the Japanese Zaibatsu and the inevitable Feitoria for Portugal. I recognize that stepwells are very uniquely Indian, but they could have been implemented more elegantly; maybe as a leader UI.

And yes I am getting huge Aztec Chinampa vibes from the Mayan UBs. It's a liiiitle close conceptually to the Hawaiian Lo'i Kalo, but perhaps can be distinguished as more than just "lake version of that."

 

[RedCourtJester]

Eh, but then not centered around the Danube itself, surely? The Danube is Bulgaria's Northern border, and it makes little sense to have a bonus for tiles directly across a city centre from a river, like it does for Budapest and Hungary.

Nah, the most likely angle I think is religion. We don't have a religion based Civ in exploration yet, and Bulgaria could fit that bill quite well. Additional narrative events leading into more religious tenets is something that would suit them quite well, while the rest of the kit focuses on expansion and defence.


There's nothing wrong with terrain bonuses, especially if they reward players for expanding into certain biomes. Bulgaria is almost certainly not getting a terrain bonus though; the two biomes that makes the most sense are Rivers and Mountains, and both have already been taken by the Shawnee and Incans respectively.

Yeah I do agree that I don't think Bulgaria would be a good representation of the Danube and Hungary begs to return in that form. If anything will prevent that, it will be the Shawnee taking up some of that design space, most likely.

I still am dubious we will see religion represented mechanically much. As AH stated above, I would have surely expected Spain and Abbasids (and Majapahit and Maurya) to be "religious" civs if religion were planned to have more depth. I suppose those civs could always be somewhat redesigned in an expansion, but I definitely would not expect Bulgaria to be a "more religious" civ than either of them.

That said, I think Tolerance Square would be a really cool concept to explore for uniques or wonders.