Several questions...(including a major one about govt transition)

[Rosicrucian]

Thanks for answering.

1) If I'm not a religious civ, what determines my period of anarchy? I just switched from Demo to fight a war with the Germans, and the god damn war was already over by the time I got to select again!! (it was like 7 turns!! ). so I just repicked Demo. But I lost a ton of tech, growth and production in those 7 turns! How can I make this period less??

2) What do you consider the "best" terrain to build a city on? It seems to me like the best is a few grasslands (or plains but you should have at least one wheat) with hills around it. The city will grow fairly large and will have insane production levels.

3) Does anyone use the governor to manage citizen moods and is this at all effective. I HATE how it will tell you certain cities are in disorder and then the focus shifts and you have to REMEMBER all the cities that are in disorder, to go back and fix them!

4) Has anyone used the governor to maximize production, seems that would be a good thing.

5) hmmm...don't have another one...lemme think of one...Oh yeah does nayone have a good list of which wonders you absolutely MUST get, which ones are nice, which ones are decent, which ones suck, etc? Personally I never build ol' Shakey's theater but when I saw how much culture it gives I started to build it now. What I usually do is at any one time I have a city building a palace so I can build a wonder with it real quick like.

Thanks <---and what's up with this smilicon??

 

[Rosicrucian]

Oh yeah
6) What happened to apolyton?

 

[BillChin]

For anarchy, if I were designing the game, the factors I might use are the size of empire, how well connected the cities are with roads, harbors, airports, and how happy the citizens are. I do not see this documented anywhere so these are my guesses.

Best terrain for early cities is close to the capital. Next, claim luxuries or horses. For the next bunch, luxuries or iron. For the Forbidden Palace (with a leader to rush it), choose very carefully. Look for a place with grass and cows or wheat plus hills, hopefully with iron and coal (for ironworks). For coastal cities I look for whale tails as they are the only way to get production from ocean squares (until the end of the game and offshore drilling).

I have not experimented much with the governors.

As for wonders, a lot depends on the map size and difficulty level. I play on Emperor, standard size map. I use a Leader for a Forbidden Palace because this is worth more to me than any single wonder. The Sistine Chapel is good for boosting happiness. Newton's University and Copernicus' Observatory are nice, but I am rarely able to get them even if I have a leader. Hoover Dam is the King of the Wonders for the huge production boost without pollution. Universal Suffrage can be useful if you stay in Republic, but is not enough for Democracy. SETI project gives a late boost, but by then the game is close to over.

The ancient wonders like Pyramids, the Great Wall are close to useless to me. Ditto for Sun Tzu's Art of War free barracks is not worth the trouble of building a wonder. The Oracle becomes obsolete so quickly that it isn't worth much either. Great Lighthouse is useful, but I can never get it on Emperor difficulty. Magellan's Voyage would be real valuable if Naval Superiority meant anything, but since Navies are irrelevant it is not worth the trouble.

So for me the high priority list is fairly short for burning leaders: Forbidden Palace
Sistine Chapel or J. S. Bach
Hoover Dam

If I have an extra leader, I may keep him as an Ace in the hole for something like the United Nations or SETI. Again, these answers will vary greatly depending on difficulty level and map size.

 

[holyman]

anachy usually last 5 turns. if u are enjoying golden age it's reduced to 3 turns. i prefer hill terrain, but was wondering whether the defense bonus was counted or not. anyway most of my cities had 2 or more resources/luxury around. if no resources around, choose one near the river and with hills. worked plains or grassland beside a river produce extra gold. a grassland with bonus resource gives 2+2+2 (food/shield/gold) and oso city next to river/ lake can go to size 12. hills produce 3 shields from monachy onwards(but only 1 food).

 

[holyman]

i got pyramid, hanging gardens, sun tzu art of war, js bach, copernicus, megellan's vovage so far, in 90 ad, deity, 7 opponents. pyramid and art of war give free granary and barracks. great wall was crap. useless except for blocking barbarians. hanging gardens and js bach give contented and happy faces at least for cities in the same continent. i gave up sistine chapel cos i think hanging gardens and js bach will be enuff for most size 12 and below cities, and i dont have to spent extra money on cathedrals. ur wonder got something to do with the characteristics of ur civ too. i was using mao the chinese, so sun tzu gives a golden age early for me to survive thru the harsh beginning part. now i am quite sure i will be winning the game oredi. just need some planning thats all.

 

[Ironikinit]

Anarchy lasted 7 turns for me once, I was at war when I started the revolution. I've only experienced that once.

Hills + grasslands is good, so's hills + flood plains. Having your actual city site directly on gold or and extra food producing square is nice. Cattle are great to have in your starting city's radius, esp. after adding a road and a mine.

I've used the governors a few times and actually prefer to micromanage cities.

Wonders: I like colossus + Newton's + Copernicus' all in the same city if I can get it. JS Bach's and the Sistine are the ones I try for the hardest. The UN is important to build if I've been a warmonger. Hoover Dam is great, so's Adam Smith's, Universal Sufferage, and Leonardo's. Hoover Dam is the one I want the most out of those. Of course, if I'm on small continents some of the continental wonders are less important (Hoover Dam, for instance).

I don't usually try for any early wonders but the colossus. An exception is the Great Lighthouse, if I'm on a small continent, it becomes key.

I don't like the Great Library. It actually seemed to slow things down when I had it.

 

[muppet]

Originally posted by Ironikinit
I don't like the Great Library. It actually seemed to slow things down when I had it.

I've noticed the same thing in some games. I don't know if it's just coincidence. I have felt at times as if all the AI's are waiting for me to research education before they will start researching again. That would be very mean of firaxis to program them like that.

 

[Grotius]

Good thread. Some questions:

1. BillChin: why do say that naval superiority is irrelevant? I agree that it's irrelevant through the Age of Sail, but I love using my Carriers, and I don't like seeing them sunk. Also, naval bombardment has its uses, no?

2. BillChin, still for you: why are you so down on the Pyramids and Sun Tzu's? Those Wonders save you a lot of maintenance costs for a long time, no? Every barracks and granary costs one gold a turn; that adds up. That said, I don't think I've ever built the Pyramids; I just can't afford to divert production to it that early. I do build Sun Tzu sometimes, but it's also tough to get. I agree that the Great Wall is, er, not so great.

3. Ironikit/muppet: Y'know, I've also gotten down on the Great Library. For one thing, you have to research an otherwise worthless tech, Literature. For another, the time sunk into building it offsets some of its value. And the AI always seems to make a beeline for Education (instead of the alternative tech path of Gunpowder), meaning quick obsolesence. It's nice to have the GL, but I no longer make it a priority. Now that I'm playing at Emperor, I seem to have no hope of building any Ancient wonder except the Colossus anyway.
All of which leads to my question: if you're playing on Deity or Emperor, which Wonders can one realistically hope to build? Or does one just plan to capture them all?

 

[loki]

Originally posted by Grotius
Good thread. Some questions:
3. Ironikit/muppet: Y'know, I've also gotten down on the Great Library. For one thing, you have to research an otherwise worthless tech, Literature. For another, the time sunk into building it offsets some of its value. And the AI always seems to make a beeline for Education (instead of the alternative tech path of Gunpowder), meaning quick obsolesence. It's nice to have the GL, but I no longer make it a priority. Now that I'm playing at Emperor, I seem to have no hope of building any Ancient wonder except the Colossus anyway.

Indeed.
The bee line to education seems motivated by a few things I can think of : major wonders like sistine chapel, js bach cathedral, shakerspeare theater + City improvements like univeristy, cathedrals. And, major one, it's the path to Democracy, which is loved by the AI.
If I am technologically advanced (almost always the case since I only play regent or warlord) I usually go for gunpowder to reveal saltpeter, and then take the line to education to get the wonders.
I guess I would go all the way to military tradition on higher levels to be the first to cavalry and kick some butt screw the wonders ...

loki

 

[BillChin]

I have never had a Carrier or a transport sunk. A handful of battleships and destroyers is usually plenty, even if the other navy is much bigger. If necessary I take the long way to avoid their fleet. They can not possibly cover the entire coast and there is no way to recon for my fleet. Navies could mean a lot of they could do things such as pirate trade to steal gold, blockade movement (more than one square), disrupt fishing (more than one square) to starve out large cities. As it is now, all navies can do is ferry troops, and bombard a bit. Air superiority means something, but navies mean virtually nothing.

On Pyramids and the like, note that I play on Emperor difficulty and a standard size map. A human player has zero chance at building the Pyramids. Extra pop can be a problem for happiness. I generally do not use slave labor camps. Usually the only city that has a granary is the capital for making settlers.

Barracks are very cheap to build. A wonder is a big project. It is good having barracks in captured cities so attacking units can heal. In my own cities it is almost meaningless. Every production city has a barracks before Sun Tzu is available. In other cities it is a tiny benefit for a relatively large cost.

Again, the strategy for wonders varies a great deal depending on map size and difficulty level. On Emperor difficulty, standard size map, a human player has little chance at building most wonders until about 700 A. D. and they have crushed their major opponents. The Colussus is possible to build but is generally not worth the cost for the benefit.

Again my short list worthy of using a leader:

Forbidden Palace
Sistine Chapel or J. S. Bach
Hoover Dam
United Nations

If a player is way ahead they can build all the wonders and enjoy the game, but if it is a competitive game, many wonders are not worth it.

Originally posted by Grotius
Good thread. Some questions:

1. BillChin: why do say that naval superiority is irrelevant? I agree that it's irrelevant through the Age of Sail, but I love using my Carriers, and I don't like seeing them sunk. Also, naval bombardment has its uses, no?

2. BillChin, still for you: why are you so down on the Pyramids and Sun Tzu's? Those Wonders save you a lot of maintenance costs for a long time, no? Every barracks and granary costs one gold a turn; that adds up. That said, I don't think I've ever built the Pyramids; I just can't afford to divert production to it that early. I do build Sun Tzu sometimes, but it's also tough to get. I agree that the Great Wall is, er, not so great.

3. Ironikit/muppet: Y'know, I've also gotten down on the Great Library. For one thing, you have to research an otherwise worthless tech, Literature. For another, the time sunk into building it offsets some of its value. And the AI always seems to make a beeline for Education (instead of the alternative tech path of Gunpowder), meaning quick obsolesence. It's nice to have the GL, but I no longer make it a priority. Now that I'm playing at Emperor, I seem to have no hope of building any Ancient wonder except the Colossus anyway.
All of which leads to my question: if you're playing on Deity or Emperor, which Wonders can one realistically hope to build? Or does one just plan to capture them all?

 

[MrFrodo]

3) Does anyone use the governor to manage citizen moods and is this at all effective. I HATE how it will tell you certain cities are in disorder and then the focus shifts and you have to REMEMBER all the cities that are in disorder, to go back and fix them!

Yes, use the governor if you get frustrated with disorder.
I am not into micro-managing each city. For me, the governor
is the best thing I learned from this forum. I probably
wouldn't play Civ3 anymore without it. It does a great job of
managing happiness, keeping your city growing with adequate
production. There are times you will want to turn it off in individual cities to accomplish specific objectives such as
reducing population or fully maximizing production (zeroing
growth). Having the governor focus on production (instead of food or commerce) doesn't seem to make that much of
a difference to me, but I tend to turn it on with cities that are
producing wonders or other large projects and I think I get a few more sheilds per turn out of it. Once you get pollution, the governor is
doubly essential because it will re-occupy those polluted squares
once they are cleaned up. I couldn't imagine having to do that
myself with 100 cities.

However, I never let the governor choose what the city will produce, because it never chooses the right thing. I use the
game preference where it asks before producing something new.
The only exception to this would be
when one city is going to pump out one type of unit (Modern Armor, ICBM, etc.) the rest of the game. But you can acheive that
using a game preference as well (always build the same unit as
last produced). I would guess the total time a typical game takes is reduced by several hours by using the governor.
Plus, you can't believe how much more fluid the
game plays when you don't have a few cities going into disorder every turn. Some people don't like the governor because it doesn't do exactly what they want, or follow a strategy (e.g. I wish it had a setting that uses entertainers to maintain "We Love the King Day" for those utopia,
corruption-reduction lovers), or they just like micro-management. But for me, the gameplay is much more fun with it on. Try it out...

 

[Ironikinit]

"question: if you're playing on Deity or Emperor, which Wonders can one realistically hope to build? Or does one just plan to capture them all?"

Emperor is the hardest level I've played on. Even the colossus might be impossible if a rival happens to go for it. However, I think that almost any wonder could be possible if you have a really good production city and make it a priority to build a wonder. You can get beat, but if you're not building with your capital, you can switch to another project, such as the palace. It's much better if your project city is coastal so that the colossus and the Lighthouse are options.

Really, it's a bit of a crap shoot, but you should be able to snag at least, say, the Hanging Gardens, even if you get beat to the punch on the ones you favor most. The hard part is getting a city that is coastal, established early enough to get a good start, and productive enough to make it viable. That's where luck comes in. If you have that, though, you should be able to get one of the early wonders on emperor.

 

[holyman]

on deity level i never research literature to get the great library. i started off with a city with 2 wheat and 1 game around, built 3 other cities consequtively, start pyramid at around 2850bc, using the 3 cities to provide workers and population. by around 2030 the capital is size 12 oredi. then divert all remaining workers(about 3) to work on another potential size 12 city for the next wonder.
by around 1625bc i complete the pyramid(the rest are working on oracle), immediately i built 3 or 4 settlers from the size 12 capital city, rush the temple at the next wonder site with 1 settler and start building the next wonder, the great library. tech advance was not good so it was building 'palace' then. the rest of the settlers built new cities. i used another city for wonders too. so its 7 cities with 2 building wonders and 5 providing workers and troops at 1200bc. at that time 2 cities had 0 troops so roads was important when barbarians come. research on wheels earlier on, built a road to horses and sent 2 or 3 chariots to look for other civs. india or persia was fast on research and they got literature first. i traded with them and got the great library. i was lucky i got the contacts first and traded contacts instead of cash. but i figure if i cannot get the contacts first i simply attack an enemy city and trade for literature.