SGOTM 01 - Fifth Element

[Groin_Apologist]

Hi everyone-

Glad to see we are up and running. Since I am more of a Noble/Prince player, I will no doubt need some direction (or redirection) from the more experienced people.
I have no major objections to "Fifth Element", although I thought the special effects in the Bruce Willis movie (especially with regard to the 'bad guy' aliens) were pretty lame.
With regard to the starting location, this may be a newbie comment - but can we switch the cursor onto the settler and then see if we are already standing on one of those ubiquitous blue circles? It might be an indicator that we are in range of other resources already?

 

[Merum]

I've been playing some games as Egypt on Monarch, various mapstyles, to get a feel for what we'll be going through. I don't know if anybody else has, but it's a fast pace, for sure.

@Groin - We can't highlight the settler until we get the save, which will be on the 12th. I suppose we should take some time after it's available to do just that, and discuss what we're going to do?

If we want to go pyramids, we might consider skipping stonehenge altogether. Don't want our engineer production cheesed up by prophets, and we can use those forests on the pyramids instead. I'm not really that good at creating GP farms, so I'll defer to somebody else on that. I'm not sure we're going to have a lot of opportunity to build much except military early on anyway.

 

[Dolphan]

Re: groin_apologist #21

Dunno about everyone else, but I find the computer tends to put those blue circles in stupid places a lot of the time.

Re: Merum #22

Have you tried to get the pyramids in any of your practice games? I'm worried about wasting the chops if we miss it - would three adjacent forests be enough to overcome the AI lead?

I think we have to be very careful about relations since diplo may turn out to be the best option. My instinct is to avoid going for a religion and try to pick one up that gives us a block of friends (lots of open borders) - then go for whoever hasn't got it to whittle down the playing field and get those big mutual military struggle bonuses.

 

[BrianS]

Re: Merum #22

Agree about skipping Stonehenge. With Creative trait, we get the quick early city expansion making Stonehenge less useful. If we can get Pyramids, that would be great. I'll try it in a practice game tonight. I have tried a couple Monarch practice games and agree about the fast pace. It's shocking how early you see archer/axes from the AI.

 

[Dolphan]

Game starts tomorrow. Are we going with 48 hours to get, 24 hours to play? Or is it the other way around, I can never remember? And is the first player going to do 20, 10 each after that? I assume Perugia will go first.

 

[Perugia]

1. Ask to be skipped, or play your turns on time. Please don't just go missing in action.
2. Do not automate workers without first discussing with the team.
3a. Do not use city governors without first discussing with the team.
3b. If you change production in a city make sure you inform the team and leave any part-completed items on the build queue.
4. Do not leave units on goto orders that extend beyond your set of turns. If for some reason this happens, then be sure to inform your team as to what the unit(s) is/are going.
5. Finish all your turns and upload the game saved at the END of the last turn.
6. @Dolphan 25 When it is your turn to play, it is normal to pick the game up within 24 hours of the new save being made available, and to post a new save within 48 hours of that (so 72 hours in total). If you cannot meet the deadline then your team captain may grant you an extension or skip you at his discretion.
7. Only post a "got it" message once you have downloaded the save and actually opened it in the game. It is not unusual for something to happen that prevents the save being opened.
8. Post a turnlog which describes your set of turns. Provide enough information, not only on what you did, but what your intent was for the next few turns. "Where is that galley going?" and "Oops that palace build was actually a pre-build" are not uncommon comments in the threads.
9. Respect your team mates, and demand their respect. Take care of your writing style, accept that people whose first language is not English will use English in a different way than you are used to. Disagree by all means, but don't make it personal, and don't take it personally.
10. SG's are team games. Be a good team member. Post your ideas, argue your corner and encourage and praise your team mates. Don't be afraid to post in your game thread. That is what it's for.
11. The following Game Options are preferred except Wait at End of Turn which is mandatory.

12. Have fun.

The above is based on the guidance from C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread and copied here so it can be amended to our own needs.
As this is Civ4 I have added new rule 3b so hammers don't get hidden.

Definition of Number of turns to Play
1. 10 turns during wartime
2. For every 2 turns at peace you can play 1 optional turn up to a maximum of 15 turns
3. If HC is the only leader we are at war with, you can treat any turn where no act of war (fighting, pillaging, capturing workers etc) occurs as a turn of peace.
4. As normal SG convention it is 'good form' to stop early if a key decision coincides with turns 9-15 or you feel your are getting out of your depth but the choice is yours.

Preferred Game Options added 11May06

 

[Perugia]

Many appologies for suggesting we build Stonehenge. We definitely do not heed it for border expansion with the Creative trait. I meant to write the Hanging Gardens should we want to persue a Great Engineer strat but we are very unlikely to snag both The HG and pyramids.

The Spiritual trait is no good to us unless we are revolting. To do this we have to have Civic options so the Pyramids would be really good to have to make the most of our spiritual trait and have a head start on the UN if we need it.

Someone asked what our starting techs are, the answer is Agriculture and The Wheel. The good news is they are amongst the highest cost baseline techs. So we can immediately do something useful, if we only had a worker.

What about our initial research path folks?

Fishing to get a bigger discount on Pottery or direct to Pottery for cottage spam or AH to find the horsies. We can probably delay pottery initially due to all the flood plains and monarchy limits our capital will soon reach its limits so we dont need a granary until our second city.

I do not know about Monarch level and health penalty either vs., say, Lord or Prince. Anybody?

It's the same as Prince, one worse than Warlord.

Checking out this post, I found that the difficulty level bonuses for Warlord, Noble, Prince, & Monarch are:
Health 3, 3, 2, 2
Happy 5, 5, 4, 4

 

[Goodenuf]

Hi guys, ... just checking in on my lunch break

Now... let me catch up on the rest of the discussions.

Thx!

edit:
OK... finally caught up

First SGOTM for me, but played the regular GOTMs in Civ4 only. I'm a strong Noble, weaker Prince player; usually more of a builder than a warmonger, so this should be a nice change.

1. Agree with SW on plain hills start. Food should not be a problem here given all those flood plains. Health may be another story (or is flood plains still a health issue in Civ4 like it was in Civ3?).

2. Research... did we want to attempt an Oracle slingshot? Given Monarch level, we may be faced with getting CoL at best... perhaps Monarchy or even Alphabet with an Oracle, plus it may imply a more direct route to Priesthood (i.e. get BW first then go for Priesthood).

3. Would agree that Stonehenge isn't necessary given our traits. Would be good to get Pyramids, though.

4. We should probably go for domination if possible. However the earlier discussion re: locked in peace may mess us up if they get off to a good start. Can we pay off other civs to attack them ??

5. Given that we're locked in a war... military is important... so Archery, BW, IW, Horseback will be important. Perhaps this would preclude Oracle slingshot?

That's it for now. Looking forward to this
Thats it for now.

 

[Perugia]

Hi guys, ... just checking in on my lunch break

Now... let me catch up on the rest of the discussions.

Thx!

Welcome aboard. No real decisions have yet been made except the Team name. Hope thats OK by you.

RE: The starting tile discussion posts #2 through #20.....

Unless the save reveals something unexpected I agree that we should settle 1SW. Settling S or SE will leave us with too much food and hammer poor. With Monarch on top of all those FPs we will be in unhealthy trouble. S or SE might have been OK for a mid-game commerce city with lots of health resources conected but for an exponential start we need maximum hammers. 1SW gives just about enough floodplains to support all the mined hills and with 3 forests we get some extra hammers before we have mines. BTW I reckon there's a forest/hill poking out of the fog 1SW1W. After the second expansion the forests to the N at distance 3 can also be chopped without penalty.

I also agree with the sentiments about early war and the need for units. Don't forget we are in a locked war with the Inca and may need the extra hill defence.

Huayna Capac
Aggressive, Financial
Agriculture, Mysticism
Que-Cha (+25% city defense, +100% vs archery + Melee unit so start with combat I)

Yikes!, How about building an early barracks! Let's no bother about learning the dead-end tech Archery until we know where Huayna is. We should send our initial warrior and more 'scouts' to find out if Huayna is nearby. First build will probably be a second warrior.

@gskur We are losing one 'potential' hammer but it would cost us 2 food every turn to work the mined plains hill whereas the extra city hammer requires no food.

 

[Goodenuf]

Another question...

If we are locked in Peace, does that also imply a Defensive Pact (i.e. we go to war to support them and vice versa)?

I suppose if we get in a situation where we can't win domination because our 'friends' are too big... as long as we're bigger we can still win by diplomacy since our vote will be larger. I would think, though that a diplomatic victory will be waaay too late to actually win this thing. Me thinks that some of these expert teams will likely win with some insane time like 500AD...

Another thought would be (since we are creative/spiritual), that we try to win culturally by acquiring religions and wonders, and just building enough defense to keep the incas out.

Finally, perhaps our best scout would be the UU war-chariot. Good movement, stronger than a regular chariot, and we only need horses for it. It can take care of those pesky Incans if we come across them right away. That would raise the need for Animal Husbandry right to the top.

Ultimately, I think our strategy heavily depends on where our friends and especially our enemies are. If the Incas are close by, we've gotta fight. If they're not, then we can probably do some building first.

Just some random thoughts to stir around.

One last thing re: schedule.

I am pretty open most evenings to play, but next weekend (May 19-22) is a long weekend in Canada, and I am away. If my turn comes up then... consider me as 'skipped'. Thx!

 

[gskur]

by Goodenuf 28
4. We should probably go for domination if possible.

I think it sounds right, so far. “Locked in peace” means we cannot declare was on them and they on us, that’s all. On the other hand, it’s just ONE unknown civilization, one out of 4 unknown, is it? It might make little difference to what general strategy we pursue, I think.

by Perugia 29
@gskur We are losing one 'potential' hammer but it would cost us 2 food every turn to work the mined plains hill whereas the extra city hammer requires no food.

I thought we would have 4H from the plain hill with the mine, so it’s the loss of 2H and the loss of 1G (and this is Research money!) as well. Also, the 3F from the floodplain will come loaded with gold pieces (when developed), which we will need desperately, one way or another. But I agree, of course, that the immediate +1H in the capital can outweigh the extras that would come later on. This +1H and the defensive bonus are very important if HC is nearby. But then, if this is what we assume our major consideration is, we (to be consistent in our strategy) need Archery ASAP or we will not be able to defend effectively. Having a few archers will postpone the inevitable attack and give us time enough to develop (hopefully). HC will attack with archers (Archery is an AI free tech!) if we have just warriors. Bronze of horses might not be there for us in the capital, and if they are close enough for us to settle the second city near them, it will take time to get these resources available for our military. But then again, I once got lucky finding myself settled right on top of Copper--but not this time, I bet.

I agree with skipping Stonehenge. Also, Pyramids require a massive qty of hammers, and TIME. I’d go after them only if we get lucky with the second and the third settling location so that we can lock our capital out of the development for a while. If Pyramids are not possible, what would be our strategy then? Do people build Pyramids often when payning at Monarch level?

@Perugia: thanks for the Health/Happy info (bottom of 27). Monarch is like Prince here, and I play Prince often, so I know now that the impact of the floodplains might be quite manageable till city size maybe 9-10+. Usually it is the happiness that is a universal limiting factor, so we will need Hereditary rule early, I guess.

by Perugia 27
Fishing to get a bigger discount on Pottery or direct to Pottery

Could you point me (and others, maybe), towards some posts or something describing these "discounts" and how they work. I will search, for sure, but would hate to miss a good source, if you know one. Thanks in advance.

 

[Goodenuf]

re: #31
Could you point me (and others, maybe), towards some posts or something describing these "discounts" and how they work. I will search, for sure, but would hate to miss a good source, if you know one. Thanks in advance.

I wish I could find this as well. I did read somewhere that the more prerequisites you have for a tech, the cheaper it is. So for pottery, getting Fishing as well will discount pottery, say 20%. It would be good to find the actual info that state how this works.

re: Research. I would think Animal Husbandry would be researched first so we can see if there are horses nearby. If so, then we have our UU chariots, and we don't have to worry about getting Archery right away. If not, then research Archery for defense. Plus AH would get us access to the cows.

 

[gskur]

Yes, Goodenuf, researching AH is the #1 priority, agreed!

But could you please elaborate on why/how the chariots could replace achers for us? Arechers have the best defensive adjustments in the game, per hammer invested. I figure a single defending archer with a promotion in a walled city on a hill (we are settling in the 1SW, right?) can take on 3-4 swardsmen/axmen and maybe 5-6 Que-Chas even with their 100% agains archers and their promotions. Until catapults are available, it would be a pure suiside for HC to attack our capital if archers defend it. And archers are cheaper/faster to build as well. We could easily end up facing the same problem trying to take him out early. I am missing something here...

 

[Perugia]

The start is now available (one team have actually played to 3400BC) so I'm going to leave work now and head home so I can post a "got it". I will also report anything I can glean before settling.

I'm sure I can find the to threads discussing research bonuses and will post a link later. I also think that no one actually gives the formula or figures but we do know that the bonuses come from optional techs. Let's see if we can work it out for ourselves in this game.....

Research will be AH and likely build order warrior, warrior, worker (once we reach size 2). Any odd hammers will go towards a barracks.

I will play 20 turns but will stop for consultation if any big decisions need to be made eg planning further research depending on whether any horses are to hand.

[edit]
The save loaded OK. BTW incase anyone wonders the sea near our warrior is salty (1F2C).

Does anyone know how you rename a unit in Civ4 as its not an "ABC" icon and there doesn't appear to be a keyboard shortcut listed in my references.

Perugia (up)
Merum (On deck)
Doom_Train
BrianS
Dolphan
gskur
Groin_Apologist
Goodenuf (skip on May 19-22)

 

[Doom Train]

So what will be our playing order?

 

[BrianS]

@Perugia: Can you post a screen shot after a turn or 2? Very interested in seeing the lay of the land.

 

[Gyathaar]

Does anyone know how you rename a unit in Civ4 as its not an "ABC" icon and there doesn't appear to be a keyboard shortcut listed in my references.

Select the unit, then click on its name in the bottom left frame.

 

[Dolphan]

@Goodenuf #30

I've been reading the spoilers put up by the top players in the last few hard GOTMs (3 and 4) and I think early aggression is very important, whether HC is near or not. If we can steal workers or take cities early on, we should - sitting back and building is a recipe for getting behind the AI.

@Goodenuf 28, mentioning the Oracle slingshot.

I think we'd have trouble beating the AI to that as well, we'd probably have to beeline for it, and I don't think that would be worth it , especially given the likelihood of an early war.

@General discussion of diplo vs. domination

This is guesswork, but here's my thinking - this is a handbuilt GOTM map. The only victories available are domination and diplomatic. Normally domination is always going to be faster, so I think we should take into serious consideration the possibility that our 'always peace' civ is a) miles away and b) has a very good start position. Say we trounce HC and two others and they take down the remaining two. To vote ourselves into a diplo victory from there we would need to be a reasonable bit bigger - and getting there could take time.

I say our 1st objective should be to set ourselves up and take down HC, assuming he's nearby. After that, we see what we know about the situation and decide from there.

 

[Goodenuf]

re#33 archers vs chariots

For defense, no question the archers are the way to go in the early game; especially if we start on a hill. Given a single garrison upgrade puts them effectively at a strength of 7 or 8 while defending a city. I suppose the question is whether we go out on the attack right away and fight the battles on someone else's turf (hopefully HC's). For this, we need some offense, and this starts with the chariots (movement advantage, strength 5).

If it were my call, I would research AH first (for horses), then Mining/BW to see if we have any copper (and give us chopping, such as it is in 1.61). If we are blessed enough to have both, then we rock on. After BW is when I would look at Archery.

Normally I would get archery right away, but given we have a very early unique unit... I would take advantage as early as possible.

re#38

I concur re: Oracle slingshot. Its a roll of the dice on Monarch whether or not we get it. One advantage is that we are spiritual, and therefore have Mysticism already. On the other hand, chances are we would have to chop for it, so we needing Mining/BW as well... certainly turns it into a long shot.

re more random thoughts

I was thinking about the idea of a cultural victory... we certainly have the right traits for it. I suppose the biggest problem is that we are locked in a war, so we can't dedicate ourselves to the cultural path, and the goal isn't a high score, but quick victory. Culture is tough to win early. Diplomatic victory suffers the same fate. Conquest is out due to the locked in peace (unless someone else wipes them out). To me the only real solution is domination.

The other thought was space victory (or the fact that it is disabled). I wonder if the AI is sophisticated enough to realize this, and therefore not gun for the research to achieve this? It seems that some AI civs tend to develop for this (America, for example). How does the AI adjust to alternative victory conditions? Do they all now go for building military? That could spell a lot of extra resistance in any domination attempt on our part...

 

[Dolphan]

@Goodenuf #39

We have to win by diplomatic or domination - no cultural allowed, although it is enabled so technically the AI could get it or we could get it by accident, but in practice neither of those is likely.