I am stopping now as the extra resources may impact our research path.
The rice & stone make AH look slightly less favourable but we are getting a 20% discount against it for knowing agriculture. We pay only 180 beakers for a tech worth 223. If we knew hunting then AH would only cost 135 beakers.
If we are serious about Archery then we should research Hunting now which will double the bonus which effectively gives us hunting for half-the cost. The overall research time before we get AH will not go out by more than a handful of turns.
I have added the schedule to post #34 and I am taking a 16hr time out......
How do you know about the discounts? Where would anybody go to look it up? I've just started a random game as Egypt and the thech tree shows 223--no discounts!--and a few turns in it is still the same. It's very puzzling!
Unless we (the team) all know how this happens, we can never be on the same footing with you in developing our strategies or in efficiency of decision making.
I've searched the forum and browsed through many posts with no success so far…
[added on 05-12-06] to Perugia: I finally figured it out (mainly through experimenting and (remarkably!) examining closely the Tech Tree poster that accompanied the game CD. No one else seams to be bothered by this, so this note should rightfully end my one-sided panicky conversation.
With the beaker costs laid out as presented, I would go for Hunting first.
Also. with Stone, Pyramids are looking better now. But since we are seemingly going for domination (or diplo) victory, would we what them? Does anybody know how Pyramids can help us here?
Thx for screenie! Good logic on the Hunting/Archery/AH costs. Hunting also gives us scouts, which are most definitely useful for seeking out the emeny. So, Hunting, then AH, then (depending on proximity of horses) Archery or Mining/BW...? Either way, Archery should probably be in the top 5 to research.
The city location turns out to be a bit of a powerhouse as well with access to 3 resources (that we know of), The available stone makes Pyramids a possibility, too. Also with the fish, we may eventually want a city where the warrior currently stands...
How about build order? Warrior or Worker first? Or Barracks until we're at size 2? If we research Hunting, do we beeline a scout?
Enough flag-raising i guess; it's all about solutions. My vote would be to research Hunting then AH, then decide. Build order would be Warrior, then barracks until size 2, then worker, then scout.
I'd like to know how you can actually do it. We are kocked at war with HC, right? And to steal a worker you would need to get next to it, right? So how can you steal one, practically speaking?
I'd like to know how you can actually do it. We are kocked at war with HC, right? And to steal a worker you would need to get next to it, right? So how can you steal one, practically speaking?
1) use a unit with movement 2 (like a chariot)... even then if he's within line of site of the worker, the worker likely moves back by the time you can execute the steal.
2) attack someone else. So much for diplomatic victory
I also agree with Hunting--->Animal H for research. As for BO i suggest Warrior--->Barrack--->Worker--->Scout or Warrior.
also it s not possible to steal worker from in early game without chariots(Maybe scout can also do the work) because we are locked at war with HC.
Yeah, seams vertually impossible to steal a worker from a nation you are at war with, if the worke is not "geographically" trapped or surrounded. However, stealing a worker from a "third party" might not be a bad idea at all. Yes, it means we declare on yet another country, but it does not preclude good relationship with them even in not so distant future, in my experience, esp. if they are not aggressive (like Gandi, say)--so we just choose well.
By the way, because scouts cannot attack thay cannot steal a worker, I think, but you can use a scout to declare a war by sending him into a "closed-bordered" terretory and even to occupy an ungarded enemy city. Anybody knows for sure if I describe this "scout" stuff correctly?
If we go Representation, the +3 in largest 4 to 6 cities is huge on Monarch level. Its also at low maintenance, so no extra cost for this privilege.
Alternatively if we go to war, the lower war weariness and bonus military production rate in Police State is significant. And (being a Spiritual civ) there's no anarchy to switch between them. We only need to wait the 5 turns to switch again.
The pyramid culture and GP bonus is good, too.
That being said, its is a significant commitment to try for it. Those are lost military/settler cycles/hammers that would need to be regained by the benefits of the Pyramids over the long term (geez I sound like I'm in marketing...).
re: 49
I don't think its a good idea to start war with "third party" since we aren't much familiar with monarch level, we ll have hard time to handle 2 enemies. Also it may cause negative impact on possible B plan(diplomatic victory).
The stone is nice for pyramids, but we're still not going to get it unless we can chop. That means BW, and sooner rather than later.
Pyramids can be mighty powerful. Great Engineers can be very handy. If we can get the main city into leader farm shape, we could be flush with them. If we can farm engineers, we can bank some of them for Eiffel Tower (huge culture boost = border expansion) or the UN (Diplo, obviously). Of course, that idea is predicated on us actually surviving that long.
Representation will also give us +3 beakers per specialist, which is a nice bonus when you're farming GLs.
An alternative might be to use a second city for building the pyramids, but we'd have to get it up soon, and in a dense forest.
War Chariots are going to require horses. Let's hope we don't get thrown a curveball there.
We have to prune our rivals early. Otherwise, they'll run away from us. HC is unlikely to start wars if he's locked in one with us, so we're going to need to do our own dirty work. If Julius is around, we're really going to have to keep him in check. I've been on the receiving end of way too many praet rushes at that sucker's hands... I don't think he likes me very much.
I agree we should do Hunting/AH, then decide what to do next based on the availability of horses. No horses would make me think real hard about trying to get BW as soon as possible. Doubt we can hold off that long against quechas without archers, though.
Edit: That stone there almost looks like pyramid bait, doesn't it? What's the catch?
Double Edit: Isn't Egypt where the 5th Element saved the world from absolute evil? How appropriate.
If we go for domination I think we would hope to get it a good while before the Eiffel tower becomes available.
@General discussion #42+
Definitely agree with the importance of horses. If they're nearby, grab 'em and pump out the chariots. Otherwise, archery. I've played as HC once or twice and found that archers on hills really scupper a quechua rush. If we have a barracks for city garrison 1 our capital should be secure.
Thats one of the best capital positions I've ever seen. However, I'm guessing the majority of the other teams will have gone for it too, so its more of an advantage against the AI than anything else.
At the dawn of civilization the Egyptian empire is mostly ignorant but has received a great revelation from on high to settle the plains hill 1SW in order to be closer to our beloved gods.
Meanwhile Anhur being a warrior-god, and therefore pre-disposed to seek out the high ground to remain close to his father Ra, moves to the desert hill from where he beholds flying fish. He receives a revelation that beyond the fog a mere three leagues North lies another hill and he resolves to head there. At a date humans know as 3910 BC (whatever BC means!) he spies a more habitable range of two plains hills.
While Anhur takes a well earned rest at the start of 3850 BC to gather his strength for a third ascent, the borders of Thebes expand revealing the NE coast of our continent and another shoal of fish. Anhur finds a good spot for a second city bordering tundra with 2 cows, 5 flood plains and 4 plains hills in the fat cross. Anhur is now getting cold and wonders what he can do to warm up beside more exercise.
It looks like we are in the top third of the map on a penninsula tipped by tundra with sea to the East, South and North West. We could even be in an island. To resolve this asap, Anhur wil continue North while I MM Thebes to convert 1f>1h by moving our citizen off the floodplains and on to the cow to get the second warrior out sooner. This warrior is destined for an early explore to the SW to see what lurks down there.
3820 BC Anhur meets a wolf and we take and receive 4 hits leaving us at 52/100HP and wolf at -28/100HP. Anhur shrugs off his wounds and heads to a nice wooded hill from where he feels really safe as the legendary silver mountain at the top of the world can be seen.
3730 BC We discover Hunting which, as our soothsayers have predicted reduces the cost of AH to less than 150 beakers in place of the 223 base cost. Start AH in order to locate the horses.
3700 BC Tefnut (warrior) born in Thebes so start putting some hammers into a barracks as planned.
3670 BC Anhur sees a Lion and has no major area to explore so stops to heal...
3610 BC Tefnut has now travelled four leagues from Thebes and ascends a coastal plains hill next to a jungle full of wild sugar canes. What appears to be an Island peers out of the fog to the SW...
Tefnut our female warrior, sighs and turns NW but is cheered to finding shellfish and then meet Catherine's Scout IBT that appears to have come from the SW.
Tefnut turns back W then SW again as she is on an Isthmus with the NW blocked by mountain and coast and Russia somewhere in the south. The 'island' we saw earlier is probably just part of our continent.
The good news is we are not alone and even better Catherinew does not (yet) know Inca
3580 BC Thebes grows switch barracks>worker as we are now at size 2.
3490 BC Anhur has taken all the Elixir of the Gods he can stomach and now feeling fit agian heads home. The lion is still there guarding the forest. IBT lion attacks and we take no damage. I save the first promotion and move on past the NW fish
3430 BC 20 turns played so I save the game.
Summary
We are in good shape geographically with a penninsula all to ourselves loads of health and with a smatteing of other resources. We can go ahead and settle our land without too much trouble from the AI.
We have met one other Civ that we can either cultivate or steal from without intefering with our plans. The Inca seem quite some way off.
Merum play 11 turns so that the turn numbers from the log tie up.
Our worker is due in 10 and AH in 5.
Tefnut needs to find Catherine while Anhur needs to check out there are no other isthmuths on the coasts that are partly hiding in the fog.
Turn log
Spoiler:
Here's the log provided by the upload page - plus my own entries for the first and last turns.
Turn 0, 4000 BC; Start
Turn 1, 3970 BC: Thebes has been founded.
Turn 4, 3880 BC: The borders of Thebes have expanded!
Turn 6, 3820 BC: Barbarian's Wolf (1.00) vs Fifth Element's Anhur (Warrior) (2.90)
Turn 6, 3820 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 6, 3820 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 6, 3820 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 6, 3820 BC: Fifth Element's Anhur (Warrior) is hit for 12 (88/100HP)
Turn 6, 3820 BC: Fifth Element's Anhur (Warrior) is hit for 12 (76/100HP)
Turn 6, 3820 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 6, 3820 BC: Fifth Element's Anhur (Warrior) is hit for 12 (64/100HP)
Turn 6, 3820 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 6, 3820 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 6, 3820 BC: Fifth Element's Anhur (Warrior) is hit for 12 (52/100HP)
Turn 6, 3820 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 6, 3820 BC: Fifth Element's Anhur (Warrior) has defeated Barbarian's Wolf!
Turn 8, 3760 BC: You have discovered Hunting!
Turn 17, 3490 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs Fifth Element's Anhur (Warrior) (3.40)
Turn 17, 3490 BC: Combat Odds: 3.6%
Turn 17, 3490 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 17, 3490 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 17, 3490 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 17, 3490 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 17, 3490 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 17, 3490 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 17, 3490 BC: Fifth Element's Anhur (Warrior) has defeated Barbarian's Lion!
Turn 17, 3490 BC: While defending, your Anhur has killed a Barbarian Lion!
Turn 19, 3430 BC: Save & upload (20 turns played). Note the turns numbers start at zero which is why the 2nd player should play 11 turns to even things up.
Looks like we were wrong about the Incas. I suppose when we find them we can bribe others into war against them and get nice mutual struggle bonuses without ever getting a 'declared war on our friend' penalty. As we don't face a quechua threat I suggest we get out our 1st settler out before the barracks and settle 1S,1SW of where Anhur is in the first screenshot. If a) we have horses in Thebe's fat cross and b) Tefnut finds catherine reasonably accessible, we should probably build chariots and rush Cathy - we need to lever an early advantage.
The third and final images are quite wide. They display OK on my 1280 x 1024 screen. You could reduce them before uploading. 800 width is usually recommended to ensure that they'll work OK on a 1024 x 768 screen.
I have the save. Play later today, most likely. Tefnut is going to explore SW looking for Catherine, while Anhur continues to explore our western coast.
The only significant decision this turnset will come on turn 10, when the worker builds. Any thoughts on what to build next are welcome, otherwise I'm just going to go back to the barracks to try to preserve as many hammers as possible on that.
The first 5:
turn 20: Anhur has no movement points left. Tefnut goes SW, and sees the land extend
Turn 21 3400BCE: Tefnut climbs a hill, and sees a gem deposit twinkling in the jungle below. Egypt will make good use of these.
Turn 22 3370BCE: Tefnut finds Catherine. She's close, just on the other side of that water. It looks like a lake, but it appears to be salt water. Anhur continues SW, up the hill.
Turn 24 3310BCE: Catherine is already mining gems. Tefnut spots a pride of lions on the hill before her and hunkers down the best she can in the forest.
Turn 25 3280BCE: Tefnut defeats the lions. AH researched. Get ready for an early war. Catherine has the horses. Either way, it's going to be a while before we get them. BW is 31 turns away. Masonry is currently 24 turns away. With the revelation of the horses, and the fact that HC doesn't appear to be in our face, I'm going to pause here for a discussion of tech direction.
I don't know how to embed the screenie right in the post. See the thumbnail below. I kind of prefer to view them this way anyway.
Umm... duh. After looking at the map some more, I see through the fog that we have our own set of horses (see thumb #2) north of Thebes. Still holding, because I'm not sure Archery is the best path. We can load up on Chariots and go after Cathy while we research something else. My heart is leaning towards mining.
For future note: If we chop at Thebes, we're going to have health problems due to the flood plains. We'll get +2 from the rice and the cow. We'll need to build granary and aqueduct to keep the city healthy.
Based on our location so far, I think health is going to be a consistent issue during the game. We'll have to be on the lookout for health anywhere we can get it. Clams and fish should be on the priority list.
My guess is that salt water between us an Cathy is likely an inlet that opens SE of what we can see; otherwise it would likely be fresh water. If so, we will want to place a city right by those piggies to cut off the choke point. Perhaps with the right placement, we can make a canal out of a city to allow ships to pass thru from ocean to ocean.
However, I would say getting the horsies is a priority. I would build a settler and settle 2W of the horses so that we can get the fish as well.
(by the way, for future screenies, can we have the resource display turned on? helps to see where everything is... thx!).
What is the Monarch initial city size ceiling that we have before health is an issue? I would think a city of size 3 will likely be the maximum before we need 'help' (e.g. aqueduct or granary). So we may want to check this and suspend growth until that ceiling goes up.
The eastern mountain range is interesting. I wonder what our illustrious map designer placed behind it? No land, or perhaps an isthmus to the enemy, or a resource dump... who knows
Any thoughts on building a scout after the worker? If this is just an island with Cathy and us (if we were stuck on a desert island with 1 other leader, who would it be... oh, never mind ), then the scout build may be a waste of time. Perhaps settler, then scout...
I also presume that we've come across zero huts... so no help in that regard. Warriors and goody huts on monarch = pretty bad stuff. This is where the scout would be handy.
Techwise... I'd be tempted to go with Masonry so we can get the stone (or is it pottery we need for a Quarry? No, thats for granary and cottages).
Those are my thots... take them for what they're worth.
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in largest 4 to 6 cities is huge on Monarch level. Its also at low maintenance, so no extra cost for this privilege. 
