SGOTM 01 - Fifth Element

[Perugia]

gskur #195 - OK lets go with the whip at Thebes. Do you agree to wait until we have enough hammers so only one pop gets whipped?

Not sure why you don't want the third city before Moscow but that kind of ties in with my idea letting it grow before we capture.

BrianS #196, gskur#200 - I agree with the entirety of these posts. Concentrate all our forces at StP, hit hard in one go and raze. Save the combat results. Analysis of which will allow us to work out exactly how much is needed for Moscow which will be harder.

Some players want to go for Moscow first, but most would rather rather raze St Petersburg so we can go ahead and carry with the great military road without the Russian border stopping us using it.

To further the discussion everyone should have their say
(I believe our current thinking can be summarised as follows)

1) St Petersburg followed by Moscow
Perugia
gskur
BrianS
Groin_Apologist
DoomTrain
Goodenuf
2) Moscow followed by St Petersburg (as long as moscow's defense is not too high)
Dolphan
Merum

@Groin_Apologist - I think the consensus is to raze St Petersburg, it's just in the way.

 

[Doom Train]

My vote goes for razing st.pete first. Then build up and take moscow.

 

[Merum]

If y'all want to raze SP before moving on to Moscow, I'm not going to like, flip out or anything. It's just my own personal warring style that sends me after the capitol first. Taking it pretty much cripples and paralyzes the opponent, especially at this early stage. Then it's just a question of mopping up. If I can see the capitol, I go for it.

By all means, feel free to burn SP to the ground, pillage all that's good, and move on to Moscow.

I thought the reason we were razing SP was purely based on the spot Catherine chose to settle.

 

[Groin_Apologist]

I don't mind razing it (good $$$ and keeps the legionaries happy), just interested in the logic behind the decision. It seems like I can never have more than three cities (even on lower difficulty levels) before running into monetary problems, particularly if I am building a war machine. Has anyone worked out the math as to whether it would cost MORE to support a 3rd city, or whether the 3rd city would raise our unit support limit enough to be financially desirable? (BTW - our 3rd city could also be the new city Cathy's settler is threating to build on our peninsula.)

 

[Goodenuf]

Finally checking in... lots has happened I see. I am at work now, so not a lot of time to catch up on the proceedings. I will catch up when I get home this evening, and hopefully get back in sync. I would suggest someone take a set of turns (if you're waiting for me) until I'm fully caught up again, unless they can't go for a day or so.

Pass me the vodka...

 

[gskur]

@Perugia #201
I looked at the save and I think we should just ignore the population issue and start working the two mines. The population will be in line the next turn (starved to the balanced size, but redy to go up at a slightest provocation ). Otherwise we will have to sacrifice 3H per turn by working rice to grow the population to pop-rush for 30H—this would make no sense if my logic is correct.

@Perugia #201
@Groin Apologist #204
City Maintenance
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=138473

The chart reflects cost PER CITY vs. the number of cities.
According to this chart, as you can see, the third city will add 3 gold expenses to our financial burden. Distance is an added factor as well. I’d rather wait till defeating Russians, that is, till taking Moscow as our third city.

No matter what, we need gold, and lots of it. This will com from cottages and from mining gems.

@Merum #203
We all would just love to go for Moscow first and be done this the Russians. But Moscow requires more chariots per defending archer than St. Pete. Also, we cannot wait for Cathy to build barracks, god forbid. With St. Pete out of her production arsenal, we are better off building up for taking Moscow. As it is, I have my doubts about St. Pete for I’d rather have a full dozen of chariots in our stack. Yes, after razing this city we might, with luck, have only 3-4 chariots left (with promotions earned!), so it will take time to buid up for Moscow, but we have two cities building at higher Hammer level than her Moscow can. And bring some warriors as well, if we can: they are nothing to do attacking, but could be that proverbial last straw to do the FINISHING of badly crippled archers.

Razing St. Pete is also based on city maintenance issue (see the link above)

 

[Goodenuf]

I've spent my lunchtime going through the results so far, and I see that we do not yet have possession of any vodka and caviar, but are valiant chariots are nearing their time of glory. It looks like I will have the privilege of battle for my first turn (whether its this turn set or the next one).

I am also one who agrees we should (a) take St. Petes before Moscow (although the alternative position is compelling), and (b) raze St.Petes.

Unfortunately, I dont have Civ on my work machine , so I can't have a peek at the actual situation. Can someone post a screenie of the St.Petes area so I can see where our forces are? How many do we have near St. Petes, and how many are in transit, and when will they arrive? I would think 3 archers in defense will require 6 chariots for an attack force. I also agree that this should be done in 1 turn. The unit maintenance is costly, so we need to pillage. Since we're razing St.Petes, are we not simply pillaging everything around it while waiting for the rest of the attack force to arrive? Certainly cutting of Red Route 1 to Moscow should be done.

If we're ready, I can start on my turns this evening (i.e. starting around 8pm Pacific time). Any and all comments beforehand will be appreciated. This looks like a fun set of turns to be given. Of course, I will pause to discuss major events (e.g. city capture and results, new Russian city creation, etc.).

I do like the naming convention for the chariots after the various Pharaohs, plus having the promotion status in the name. I also like having Combat I as the initial (or primary) promotion. Flanking to me is a bit limited; perhaps better as a secondary promotion... although Combat I exposes many other useful secondary promotions.

 

[BrianS]

@Goodenuf #207: I think 6 chariots is optimistic, especially since SP is on a hill. I'm a fan of the Powell doctrine. I think we should have at least 8 chariots for 3 archers. The thing I am worrying about is SP getting another archer, which really ups the ante for us. I'd be inclined to go in with 8 chariots on turn 5 if there are still only 3 archers rather than waiting for the 9th chariot to show up and risk another archer popping up.

 

[Goodenuf]

@BrianS #208: Ya, my preference would be to have more than 6; it would be an absolute minimum. Also, I would think cutting off the Moscow road and surrounding the city with our units (especially the hammer-rich squares) will limit the ability of StPetes to build another archer unless it's pop-rushed. A 4th archer will definitely complicate matters; perhaps tipping the scale to an attack on Moscow instead (of course, depending on it's defenses). The concensus though would be St.Petes first. We'll call a meeting of the minds if a 4th shows up.

 

[Goodenuf]

OK, I have the save now and opened it successfully, and here's my first review (note: no moves have been done yet).

Turn 0 (1150 BC, end of turn review)
70% research rate (7 gold, -3/turn) will have to be reduced to 50% soon; likely in next 2 turns... 3 max. At 50% we're at +1, but we're also building units that will add to this total.

Memphis has got health issues, and Thebes has both health and anger issues. Both are strictly due to size; no war weariness yet. Chariot is 1 turn away in Memphis. Christened unnamed Thebes war chariot as Iry-Hor, and upgraded to Combat I. He has a movement left, so I will move him SW toward St.Petes. Russian settler/archer has landed and will likely build either in place or within 1 square of site.

Outstanding orders as I see them:
1. Whip a chariot in Thebes (3 turns left for next one) when only 1 pop is the cost.
2. Move all chariots to St.Petes for unified attack.
3. Continue road building in the North. How far do we take this road? To the cows and the existing road, or over the hills to the northern reaches of Russia?
4. Leave pending Russian city alone until size 2, then attack it.

Please confirm/adjust as needed. Will start playing later this evening or tomorrow (depending on feedback).

 

[Merum]

If we're going to starve down next turn, let's save the unhappiness we'll get from whipping for little benefit.

Let's begin talking about replacing SP... When and where?

Good luck on the war, Goodenuf. Give em hell!

 

[Groin_Apologist]

I concur with plan as outlined by Goodenuf. Thanks for the article, Gskur. Sounds like the algorithm is a little more complicated than in previous Civs (as it should be).
Put St. Pete's to the sword!

 

[Goodenuf]

Here's a 3 move update. Due to some unforseen delays, I only got in these 3 so far, and will continue tomorrow.

We are in position next turn to take down St Petes. Here's the summary so far, and a screenshot of the pre-attack position. Note that there are 6 chariots N of StPetes, 1 to the south, and 3 more in striking distance (2 are damaged). There are 2 archers and a galley in St.Petes. Worst case scenario is that he builds another archer in this turn.



Comments welcome before the attack.

Spoiler :

Turn 0 (1150 BC)
Moved Iry-Hor chariot 1-SW.
Leaving Anhur in Thebes with 1 unused promotion.
Moved Tiu C1 to hill beside St.Petes to get better vision of surrounding area; we can now see supporting units approaching St.Petes.
Hsekiu is sitting outside St.Petes with 1 promotion due. Gave Combat I and renamed unit to Hsekiu C1. Otherwise he is standing in chariot stack with Ben-Hur.
Leonardo is finished road portion on hill and moved SW to assist in road building. Road has 2 units of work left in this tile. Question: I'm wondering if it would be useful to build a road to Thebes from here so we can make the trip from Thebes to the front a shorter trip? Comments welcome.

Turn 1 (1120 BC)
Memphis has built a chariot; christented Ka, and given Combat I promotion. Ka moves along North road to it's current end on the hill. Love those roads!
Leonardo assists with road in forest square.
Russian City ROSTOV is founded on landing spot on hill, 4W of StPetes.
Wazner upgrades to Combat 1 and is renamed appropriately. He and warrior Geb are tempted to continue to watch over this city, but duty calls in StPetes, so they decide to move W.
An interesting development in that Moscow spits out an archer into the forest next to Horus Aha and Horus Djer. Both have 70% odds of victory versus the Archer, but will likely take damage since the archer is in the woods, and therefore in a good defensive position. Me thinks that the archer is headed for St.Petes, so it would be prudent to intercept the archer here. All squares along the way have a forest or jungle defense, except for a hill defense that it can choose to take. Since an archer has a 25% bonus on hills, it really makes no difference if he's in a forest (50%) or on a hill (25+25%). So, I would say we attack with Horus Aha, who has both Combat I and Flanking 1 upgrades.
Good news; we win this attack. However Horus Aha is now 2.3/5 strength so he needs to heal up (11 turns in enemy territory). My take is to take him to neutral territory (1W, 1NW, so he'll be there next turn) and start to heal there.
We can now see into Moscow. There are 5 archers and a worker there, and a 40% defense bonus. They have enough archers to take out Horus Aha, who is wounded next to the city. I could move Horus Djer to that location to bolster that defense a bit, but he is needed for the StPetes offensive. If I move to defend the wounded chariot, he is then 3 turns away from St.Petes, which is too far to be very useful. However, I don't want to lose a wounded chariot just for the sake of the archer we took out...
We are 3 turns away from having 5 chariots on StPetes borders (not including these 2), and 4 turns from having 7 chariots. So, we can afford to protect this chariot and still be back in time to assist in the St.Petes attack. So, I will defend the wounded.

Thebes can now whip a chariot for 1 population, and 15 turns of anger. This means we can work 1 less square, and therefore be a bit less productive. But, the concensus is in... and that is to crack the whip, so here we go.

Other units continue move to St.Petes.

Aaron has finished the road, and has moved SW to mountain across river so that we can extend road a bit further. Leonardo will connect road to Thebes to get faster movement out of Thebes.

These are long turns when you want to write everything down...

Turn 2 (1090 BC)
Thebes has rushed a chariot Serket II into service. Combat 1 is granted, and he now moves to the front to assist in the festivities.
One of StPetes archers has left the roost into an open field (nice archer... not too bright...). Tiu takes this archer out, but suffers significant damage, and is 1.5/5 health. Some healing is in order. He is also at 6/5 experience, so an upgrade next turn should do some healing. Heading NW to neutral territory for healing.
Only 2 archers and a galley left in StPetes. We now have 4 chariots on StPete's border, with more on the way. With just the 2 archers, we may want to go at it with 6 chariots instead of waiting for 8. Will review next turn.
Bad news, though... we are at 0$, and down to 30% research to get to +1. We are 7 turns from IW at this rate. We need the cash soon to get the research back up ASAP.

Turn 3 (1060 BC)
Another chariot in Thebes (Narmer) is granted Combat I and sent to the battlefield. Cash flow is at +1 with 1$ in the reserve at 30%. Things are very tight indeed.
Tiu is promoted to Combat II, and goes up to 3.3/5 strength. The choice is to keep him in striking distance of StPetes and heal slowly, or to move him out to neutral territory and take less turns to heal (4 probably). I think we need all we can get, so I'd leave him where he is (2N of StPetes).
Next turn we will have 8 full strength units and 1 partial strength unit in striking position of StPetes. It will then be time to rock the joint.
Horus Aha has moved to neutral territory and is set to heal in 6 turns. He is 2 turns from St Petes if necessary. By using the same argument as with Tiu, we could use all we can, so I'm moving him to within striking distance just in case we need that extra little bit.

Saving game at this point so I can get some sleep, and give an update to you all. First move should be a good one tomorrow.

 

[Perugia]

@Goodenuf. Nice to have you on board and well played your turns so far. I am catching up with your questions right now. I should be able to answer most.

Agree on leaving new Russian city to grow to size 2.

Agree on building the road to Thebes. Please follow the plan here, or at post #163. You can also extend roads further south into Russia and build a spur out of Thebes to hook up the rice . Road the mine directly south of Moscow (this is already part built so only 2 turns left) then road the rice.

Dumb Ruskies moving that unit out, I was hoping for some luck like that. With only 2 defenders our losses may be less than expected. As warriors are slow I suggest you start moving the spare warriors towards Moscow per the gskur plan where they could be vital in finishing off (severly) wounded archers. We'll need one there as a garrison anyhow.

Previous discussions on promotions favoured combat most times over flanking basically to increase likely damage to the Russians. Clearly use any already flanking promoted undamaged chariots in the first wave. As we are probably going to lose the inital attack on each full strength archer I would ensure we had 2 flanking promoted chariots in the first wave one for each defender. With luck one or both might retreat.

Carry on with the excellent work. Don't get totally distracted by the war to forget to check inside our cities.

@Merum agree on city placement needing some thought soon. Suggest dot mappers get busy soon.

Addition
@ gskur #206 1st para, No. If the city starves then the food bar stays empty so it won't be ready to grow at the slightest provocation we lose 45 by starving or whipping... and Goodenuf knows how to whip.

Spoiler :

The roster and turns to 1060 BC

Goodenuf 3 of 10 #213 (up)
DoomTrain 10 (on deck)
BrianS 9
Dolphan 10
gskur 10
Groin_Apologist 9
Perugia 28 (skip on May 28 - 4 June)
Merum 19 #182

 

[Dolphan]

Definitely agree with bringing the warriors up to Moscow. So far so good, we'll see what we're up against after St. Pete's is razed.

 

[Goodenuf]

@Perugia #214: Thx for the correction re where to road for Thebes. I took the shorter route NW of Thebes (just 1 square, but a river crossing as well), but can easily move to where the map indicates. I can see this will have better short and long term benefit. Also hooking up the mine and the rice (after this) will get the health up a bit.

One question: currently we have a warrior in each of our cities. Just so I'm clear.. do we want to move all of these warriors south to Russia and leave the cities undefended? We're not worried that a barb archer shows up? Even with just a warrior in the city I'm a bit nervous; especially if a barb axe comes calling; we don't have full fogbusting in place right now.

Certainly the warrior N of Rostov and the other N of StPetes should be move in to the fray. Unless I hear otherwise, I will leave the city warriors where they are.

Should we also continue with auto-chariot builds, or do we need to let up after, say, the next set of chariots and move on to other units (perhaps warriors/workers/settlers/granaries/???)? I will keep the chariot production up for now. I presume much of this can be decided after we see the results of StPetes.

And yes, good point on watching the city management... will keep an eye on it.

Has anyone mentioned that this is a deep game??

I am at work now, but I will continue playing this evening (somewhere around 6pm PDT).

 

[gskur]

@Goddenuf #216
I'd continue building chariots until IW is researched (1-2 turns, is it?). Then we will decide.

Edit 01:
@Goddenuf #218 below
Agreed.

Edit 02:
@Merum #219 below
Cute spoiler!

 

[Goodenuf]

@gskur #217: We're actually 6 turns away from IW since we're at 30% research, and 1$ in the bank with +1$/turn. Having said that, we'll get some $$ by taking StPetes, so that will boost research, and, yes, we'll likely have it in 3 turns or so (depending on the payout from StPetes). Then it depends on where the Iron is and if its easily accessible.

 

[Merum]

@Goodenuf (216) Don't leave the cities undefended... just bring everybody else.

Actually, with our fogbusters gone, we might consider leaving a chariot in Thebes as a rapid response force... I don't know how well our warriors will stand up against barb archers/axes, but I suspect it won't go well...

Beyond that, what makes the grass grow?

Spoiler :

BLOOD! BLOOD! BLOOD!

muahahahaha

 

[Goodenuf]

Here's the next 3 turns. Sorry for the slogging, but we have a few decisions to make before proceeding further. Have a peek at the spoiler first, and the screenies and then decisions to be made below. I could decide on the fly, but this is a team game

Spoiler :

Turn 4 (1030 BC)
Pyramids have been built in a faraway land.

Memphis births a chariot, and he is christened Djer. Prudence would state that we leave one behind in city to deal with any barbarians that appear out of the fog. Warriors won't last versus an archer or axe. Promotion is left for later.

Turn 4 has arrived and still only 2 archers in StPetes. We have 8 full strength and 2 partial strength chariots in striking distance, so it's time to get the party started.

Ben-Hur goes first and takes out the first archer at 20% odds. A nice start! He is left with 1.5 strength. Thesh takes the next attack and withdraws with 0.4/5 strength left. Archer is now 1.5/3. The fall is... well... inevitable
Hsekiu takes out final archer and StPetes falls. Nice start! No losses. The rest of the force can move on to Moscow while the attackers tag along for emergency support.

StPetes only provides 76 gold so the margin is still pretty tight. StPetes is BURN BABY BURN-ed to the ground. Research is boosted to 100% at a loss of -14 gold per turn. We have 78 now, so we have 5 turns of 100% before we're strapped again. Iron Working is due in 2 turns now, so we'll at least get that.

Apprentice has completed the cottage, and is waiting for orders. I'm thinking we move him down to Thebes to finish off roads/mines/rice. All working squares in Memphis have been upgraded, so the need to continue upgrading around Memphis is a little less urgent since the growth is very slow right now.

At the end of this turn, I see an archer show up 2 squares NW of moscow. He is next to Horus Aha (who is at 2.3/5). Good chance we'll lose him to the archer since I have no movement points left this turn to cover him. We'll take the archer next turn, though.

Turn 5 (1000 BC)
As predicted, we lost Horus Aha to the archer (a moment of silence, please, to honor a fallen hero). Serket I takes out this archer with no damage. Nice bonus.

Hsekiu upgraded Flanking I and is at 4.5/5.

Apprentice will start to pasture the cows so we can get the +1 health bonus. This is 6 turns to complete. After IW is discovered, he will be retasked to get Iron hooked up (if available).

We are in sight of Moscow. She has 6 archers and a worker, and 40% defense. We will need a big push to take it out.


Turn 6 (985 BC)
One of the Russian Archers in Moscow attacks our scouting chariot next to Moscow, but the chariot prevails. These guys got game.

Livy has deemed us the "Most Powerful Civilization In the World!". Such an honor!! Catherine is 3rd, and Huyan Capac is 4th.

Iron Working has been researched. We are in the Classical Era. Research options are: Fishing (4), Archery (6), Mysticism (6), Writing (9), Horseback Riding (26), Metal Casting (48). I'm thinking Archery (Archers) or perhaps Writing (Libraries).

Confucianism has been found in a distant land. Someone's likely done the Oracle slingshot to Code of Laws, although I haven't seen a message go by stating that the Oracle has been built. Nothing in the event log. Perhaps a lucky goody hut.

There is a source of Iron between Rostov and Thebes; it is closer to Rostov (2N,1E, like a chess knight), and it is 3SW of Thebes. It is not in either of our borders yet. Rostov is in the fog now, so I can't tell if it has grown to size 2 yet. Given the location of the iron, perhaps it may be prudent to go after Rostov first before Moscow. We're a little closer to Moscow, but not by much. By the time we get back to Rostov, it will likely be size 2.

We could potentially wait for Thebes' borders to grow and enclose it; but our culture count in Thebes is 400/750 and +4 per turn, so this will be awhile before we get to expansion. Chances are Rostov will grow its borders first before us, and cover the iron.

I am going to save the game and post a screenie or 2 so we can decide what we want to do from here.

Questions to consider for my final 4 turns:
1) Research path... items available as described in spoiler. I vote Archery. Consider we have another 4 turns at 100%, then we're back down to about 40% research rate. The only one we know would get done in this time frame is Fishing.
2) Attack force: continue on to Moscow (5 archers right now), or back to Rostov? The advantage of Rostov would be to more easily hook up the iron. I would keep Rostov; not raze it. Rostov had 1 archer at last report, and may be up to 2 by now.
3) Leonardo worker; retask to build road from Thebes to iron source (3SW squares)?
4) Builds... continue chariots? I would think so until we hook up iron. Perhaps consider settler soon for city placement by copper for canal city.


Fire opinions at will. I will (finally) finish turns tomorrow. I could tonight, but these need to be considered by all.