SGOTM 01 - Fifth Element

[Perugia]

Sorry Groin_Apologist but I'm skipping you as

a) The save has been waiting 24hrs
b) You haven't posted a got it
c) I have a free Saturday night

Perugia (on deck)
Groin_Apologist (skipped)
Goodenuf (skip on May 19-22)
Merum
DoomTrain
BrianS
Dolphan
gskur (resting)

I have the save and am now playing. Will report in the next 2 hours.....

 

[gskur]

@Dolphan #157
Thanks for the link; informative...

 

[Perugia]

Yep 3 warriors Anhur, Tefnut & Shu due promotions and there's a 4th Geb with only 1 XP.

1960BC
Look around gskur has left everything nicely in place so press enter.

Turn 1 1930BC
As gskur left it, Thebes grows and citizen automatically works the stone for 10hpt. Rax now due in 5 as expected.

Turn 2 1900BC
Leonardo connects the horses and moves to the SW cows to half build a road so as not to waste his worker turn. Leonado then receives new orders to move to the cows by the river.

Turn 3 1870BC
Leonardo completes his move to the cows by the river and starts a pasture.

Turn 4 1840BC
Huyana Capac adopts Slavery.

Turn 5 1810BC
Not to be outdone Fifth Element adopts slavery.

Russian worker spotted building a pasture North of St Petersburg due in 4.

Turn 6 1780BC
Memphis completes rax. Starts chariot due in 4.

Turn 7 1750BC
Apprentice completes mine but is annoyed that pottery is still due in 1 turn (177/178 beakers) as scientists forgot to notice that the slider was at 90% and we have 37gold in the bank! Increase slider from 90 to 100% at -2gpt. Sorry about that folks.

Apprentice starts a road instead which will allow future access to the rice.

Turn 8 1720BC
Pottery learned. Selected writning as next research but have not pressed enter.

Leonardo has completed pasture on the river cows at Memphis so I moved the citizen from the flood plain there for +3 hammers. Barracks now due in 7 and growth in 4.

Next turn Leonardo can move to the other cow and pasture there.

Apprentice is building a road so might want to be moved and switched to a cottage although as he is on a hill I would let the road complete.

Thoughts

In response to the old military adage of being there fastest with the mostest we should build some roads to the front so that our chariots can get to the action quickly.

The attached spoiler shows our cities at 1720BC and I have added a road network which our workers can start once the cities are maxed out. The first and most important road could be built by Apprentice when Thebes is at its happiness limit. This road leaves Thebes headed to the stone and then towards Russia. When Leonardo has finished improving Memphis he can head to the north of the river to avoid our chariots having to ford it and then road SW to meet the Thebes road at the stone.

However if we are going to pop rush then we might want to let the workers farm a couple flood plains before road building.

Roads & Cities

Spoiler :

I have stopped now as want a few opinions on research. If we want to pop rush effectively we are going to need some more happiness but I can't see any quick way of getting any at the moment.

I think the best options at the moment are:

a) IW as an insurance in our war with cathy so se can build an effective melee force just in case our chariots get bogged down.
b) Assume we are going to win and go down the writing>alphabet>drama path for libraries and theatres.
c) At some stage we will want a detour to the naval techs to explore off island. But not until we defeat Russia as our hammers will be going into land units until we do.

Russian Worker

I'm uploading this to the server now so we can discuss the research path passing my remaining turns to the next player.

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1960 BC to 1720 BC:

Turn 72, 1840 BC: Huayna Capac adopts Slavery!

Turn 73, 1810 BC: Fifth Element adopts Slavery!

Turn 75, 1750 BC: You have discovered Pottery!

The next player can play 12 turns and might get to start the war with Russia if the worker comes into range.

Hopefully that player will be groin_apologist who has another 24hrs to post a got it otherwise we will carry on with Merum and/or Goodenuf who should be back.

 

[gskur]

Good MM citizen move at Mamphis in turn 8.

I would go for Iron Working (how many turns to completion does it show in the game?). Nothing else will have an impact on our immediate struggle with the Russians. IW just might give us Axmen/Swordsmen, but what great help that would be! Taking those hill-based cities is a problem... At some point we might even fit in settler training just for the possibility that we will have to settle a new city to get the Iron... I think it's worth the gamble.

Side benefit: when we take Moscow, we'll need IW to develop jungle tiles right away.

Another subject:
Let us not dismiss the possibility of Katherine having some room to expand to the South (though I've gessed otherwise some time ago). There could be a third Russian city to deal with.

Addition 01
I do not see us pop rushing. It's 30H max gain, which is 3 turns of production in Thebes at its max. How many more tuns to replanish population?
Addition 02
Plan for building roads is good.

 

[BrianS]

IIRC we currently have Agri, Wheel, Mining, BW, AH, Pottery, Masonry (am I missing anything?)

Are we concerned about being able to take Catherine's copper with only Chariots? How quickly can we get them there? I'm thinking we may want IW, although it's not a quick get. How many turns would it take? Wouldn't be surprised to see Iron nearby, which could come in darn handy.

 

[Perugia]

#164, #165

Just quit the game at 10pm to have a rest but will reload and answer by editting this post.

@BrianS Agri, Wheel, Mining, BW, AH, Pottery, Masonry + hunting

@gskur I agree with IW (see my cross-posted option a) edit above) Science advisor gives 0/448 due in 22 turns at 16bpt but less when we build a cottages in Thebes and grow. Moving one citizen from rice to mine and new one to the second cottage for +3 hammers +2 commerce.

We don't get +2 commerce for a while as follows Thebes grows in 4 then we get +1c from a river. Then 7 turns later we get the cottage in one FP. I reckon it will take 18 turns at which time we will have emptied our treasury at -2gpt.

I expect an extra +1 or +2 commerce from Memphis and cottage growth to be used supporting our military (we still have 3 free units plus any handicap we are due).

Our new citizen can work another FP for a while this could be cottaged if we need to but it's better militarily to mine the second grass hill which will also stop growth at the happy limit.

BTW I have added some screenies to my report.

Addition
I also agree on pop rushing. Logging off for the night.

 

[Merum]

I agree that IW is probably where we want to go.

Based on the worker north of St. Petersburg, the war could start as soon as next turn. Are we ready?

Road plan works for me.

Now that we're getting 10H in Thebes, I agree that whipping is of limited benefit. Nice to have in your back pocket for emergencies, though.

 

[Groin_Apologist]

Wow - sorry guys... I was off less than 48 hours, but I guess I thought I still had someone in front of me. From what I can see, you are letting me take the next turn, then?
Let me see if I can download and take a look - then I will be back online to review the posts and ask a some questions.

 

[Merum]

No big deal. You're up and you play 12. Looks like the balloon is about to go up, so buckle your seat belts.

 

[Groin_Apologist]

Okay... I downloaded the save...
I will plan on playing the (12 turns, right?) tomorrow, but first I wanted some feedback:
1.) if the Cathy's worker appears on top of the copper, do I hit her right away - or wait until he finishes the road OR mine, and then hit him before he can finish the other?
2.) are we keeping the slider at 100% for research (at -2 gold per turn)?
3.) @Thebes: chariot is due in 2 turns - I am assuming next is chariot as well. But should Apprentice start building roads to get our troops to the theater of war (as depicted in the screenies above)? Alternative plans would be to link up the rice or else start building cottages.
4.) @Memphis: barracks due in 7 turns; I am assuming chariot is next. Should Leonardo start building a road to the west or drop a cottage on the floodplains that we are already working?
5.) Being that war is on the horizon, I am thinking we should reserch iron working next. Also, I am assuming that we wouldn't be able to get another city up before Cathy's miserable worker tries to gank that copper.

Thoughts?

 

[Merum]

Whatever you do, do not let that mine finish. If the worker roads first, let them do it. It will buy us a few more precious turns to build chariots.

I think we should build the roads to the front next... we're going to want our assets on line just as soon as we can get them there. Going to war piecemeal is not a recipe for success.

Iron working is the sensible build, to me. We could use the hedge against our chariots failing us... Also, as mentioned before, we're going to need to be able to clear jungle when not if we take Moscow.

I'm suddenly fearful that Catherine has another source of copper we can't see. We're committed to this strategy though, and so we can't worry about that now.

 

[gskur]

1.) I'd hit her right away: I do not like her having a road on copper.
2.) Yes, keep the slider at 100% for research (at -2 gold per turn): we need IW ASAP.
3.) @Thebes: Alt-chariot. Apprentice should finish the Second mine first, 2S of center, then build a cottage (I thought it was at SE of center, next to the two mines and the cows to save on moves!). You will be working stone, cows, two mines and a flood with the cottage--no growth and max hammers! Only then start on roads.
4.) @Memphis: Alt-chariot is next. The growth is in 4 turns and we hit the limit in health. I'd put the sitizen on the the plain hill 1N of center and make Leonardo mine it under him (4H!). As a result, we will have +1 food for slow growth. When this growth happens (many-many turns), we'll just put the next citizen on the flood with a cottage, but do not build the cottage now for there is plenty of time ahead for this. After the mine, Leonardo should start on roads. Note: we do not work any floods here at the moment!
5.) we need IW but Writing is queued in. I'd switch right away to IW, before ending the turn.
We do not want another city before we are done with Katherine, but we might have to, if Iron is to be had. See posts above for this. We need to build up a big enough stack of chariots (what's big enough? would 3 chariots per defending archer do?) and go raze St. Pete first. Then we'll have an opportunity to build a settler, if needed, but that's in the future...

Or should we go do some pillaging with a nice stack (like 5+ chariots) or two instead, till we have Iron and built some swords with a city raider promo. This pillaging might slow her down enough. Then go and take her out altogether?

 

[Dolphan]

@Gskur #172

I find that axes are generally preferable to swords. 1 less power, yes, but the swordsman city attack bonus isn't huge, and with the melee bonus and being cheaper axes are more versatile. I think 3 chariots per archer is probably a definite win, we could cope with 2 per archer if no walls/promotions. If we get extremely low odds, which hopefully we shouldn't, we pillage and grab iron. And pray to God we don't have to build a third city for the iron.

 

[Dolphan]

The turns have been played, I wanna know what happened!

EDIT - If you take a look at the graph, we have the 2nd highest score that any team has had at this point. May not mean much, but cool anyhow.

 

[Groin_Apologist]

Here follows my account of my turns. This was my first time, so I hope I didn't screw us up too badly.

1690 BC
Somebody built Stonehenge (...boo-hoo...)
Apprentice moves to mine the hills 2S of Thebes
Leonardo moves to mine the hills 1N of Memphis
SORRY - forgot to switch research to Iron before the turn, so I switch to it

​

now

1660 BC
The empire's first war chariot is trained in Thebes, I christened him Ben-Hur

​

and began moving him west
'Prentice and Leo both commence mining

1630 BC
Ben-Hur continues his trek westward to link up with Tefnut

1600 BC
Cathy's worker moves onto the copper! Tefnut keeps an eye on him - he's

building a mine, the crafty S.O.B.! (5 turns)​

Ben-Hur is now 1SE of Tefnut

1570 BC
Our second war chariot (Horus Aha) is completed in Thebes - he heads SW
'Prentice finished the second mine and starts building a cottage to the SE of

Thebes (the citizen is moved to this FP tile)​

Ben-Hur links up with Tefnut
Cathy's worker has 4 turns until the mine is finished

1540 BC
Ben-Hur goes on sentry with Tefnut, Aha continues west
3 turns until Cathy's copper mine is complete

1510 BC
Memphis completes its Barracks - production is switched from warrior to ALT-

war chariot​

Aha continues west
2 turns until Cathy's copper mine is done

1480 BC
Cathy complete her mine one turn early! (... LIARS! ...) Still, it isn't hooked

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up to roads yet.
As per our consensus, its time to beat the plowshares into swords (er...

​

chariot wheels). I don't know if there's a penalty for

​

attacking before formally declaring war or not, so I decide

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to make it official. A state of war now exists between the

​

Egyptian and Russian empires. Gold is now -3/turn.
Tefnut takes the initiative and captures the Russian worker (renamed Aaron),

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who is driven eastward away from the frontlines. Tefnut

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can now see St. Pete's, which is garrisoned with 2 archers

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and a galley (see screenie).
Ben-Hur joins Tefnut and uses his extra move to pillage Cathy's copper mine

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(+16 gold). Aha joins them. With Cathy having a road to

​

the south, our army is potentially within striking distance

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of Cathy's archer. Since I don't remember reading a

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consensus on how to promote the chariots, I promote Ben-

​

Hur with strength and Aha with flanking.
Leo completes his mine and moves to the cows to the west to continue

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building a road as per the proposed route.
Thebes recruits our third war chariot (Horus Djer), who heads SW

1450 BC

​

I know I was supposed to play 12 turns, but I am abdicating early. This would seem to be an important juncture in the history of our empire, and since this is only my first succession game, I will leave it someone else with more experience (also, we may need to discuss things here).

​

BTW - Cathy now has 3 archers in St. Petes (along with the galley and a settler). We currently only have two chariots within striking distance, though Djer is en route. Thebes will complete another is 2 turns (Memphis not until 4 turns.)

​

13 turns until we have Iron.

Good luck - whoever's next!

 

[Dolphan]

@Groin_Apologist #175

It begins then. We need to know what odds those chariots get against the archers. Probably worth pillaging the cows. We'll probably need both new chariots at least before we can attack St. Petes. Merum is up I think - good luck!

EDIT - I loaded the save and checked, without moving. Flanking gets 10% odds, combat gets 20%! I recommend giving all chariots combat 1 and getting 2x no. of archers, so 6 for St. Petes.

 

[Doom Train]

So war is started. We should destroy any improvements around St.Pete until we have enough chariots to raze the city.

 

[Perugia]

Nice turnset Groin_Apologist. The 16 gold from the mine will help.

I'm not sure who will play next. If the team feel the need we can take a 24hr time out now to discuss war plans and task for the new worker etc etc with a view of waiting for Goodenuf.

Merum, if you can play 22nd and have all the input you need from the team let us know otherwise you can go after Goodenuf.

Dolphan #176

I think you got the promotion percentages wrong but I agree with Combat I as the preferred promotion to increase the percentage of winning. Combat I gives us +10% strength (5.5 total) on attack and defence, Flanking I gives us +10% withdrawl chance (30% total) on attack only.

I'm usually avoid flanking but in this case it might have some merit for the first wave of attackers as long as they will do enough average damage so the second combat I wave gets good odds. We can test this before attacking so only half the stack need promos to begin to fend off a pre-emptive strike.

We can get the combat odds by mousing over without moving. I'll have a go tomorrow. It's great to be able to ignore the archer first strike as that usually makes them more effective on defense that than would appear from the odds.

Lure

Does anyone think that if we show the captured worker or one of our warriors to the Russians this might draw an archer out of the City. But they need to avoid actually getting within attack range so our chariots can kill the archer on the open field. The worker is probably better use building the road I proposed from the south.

Merum I still think Leonardo and Apprentice we should complete their improvements before roading especially with the new worker building from the south. As gskur said in #172 Leo should complete the mine then start roads.

Likewise, if we occupy the cows but do not loot it then an archer might attack which is in our favour.

Names

Can we rename the chariots with the promotions to make it easy to track, leaving the unpromoted ones wit no name

eg charC1, charF1

Warriors
I'm not sure if it would be better to leave our sentinel net mostly in place to minimise barbarian spawn or send some more of the warriors to the front relying on our new built chariots to deal with any barbs that turn up thereby gaining a second promotion. My gut feeling is that this is just delaying sending the chariots to the front where they are really needed. The warriors will be of limited use at the front unless they can entrench in forests/jungle

Any chariot that survives the first round of combat with the Ruskies will be a 5/2 and then be able to heal by taking the second promo.

Garrisons. We do have one warrior in each city don't we? - to avoid the happiness penalty.

Proposed Roster


Merum May 22?
Goodenuf (skipped May 19-22 back May 23)
Merum otherwise
DoomTrain
BrianS
Dolphan
gskur
Perugia (skip on May 28 - 4 June)
Groin_Apologist (resting)

 

[gskur]

I'd rather Merum play now and Goodenuf next, when he is back.

The lure might work when we move forward, but that pasture should be razed. As soon as we have 4 (maybe 5?) chariots in the stack, I'd move them past St. Pete towards Moscow with the assignment to loot and intimidate, and to intersept the re-enforcements which are sure to start coming from Moscow to St. Pete.

Finish the improvements in our cities before road building.

 

[Merum]

*Girds his loins for battle*

I've got the save, and have successfully opened it. I'll try to finish the turnset tonight after dinner, which is where I'm headed now.

Pre-Turn Assessment

Memphis

Memphis is ungarrisoned. I hate to leave good troops behind that are needed at the front. I'll ponder leaving a chariot there. Warriors are no good at the front, I'll also consider bringing one of our fogbusters up.

Memphis has a 4-hammer mine that I'm aching to use for war production. Growth in 5, and that's where it's going.

Production: Alt-WC, next one due in 4.

Thebes

Thebes also has a nice 3-hammer mine which will also go to war production upon growth, which is in 10.

Production: Alt-WC, next one due in 2.

It appears to be 4 turns of movement from Thebes to the pasture N of St Pete. Looks like 7ish from Memphis.

Renamed the promoted units thusly: "Ben-Hur C1" Seems to be a "best of both worlds" approach.

Next slave we get should be named "Moses"

On second thought, that whole Moses thing didn't seem to work out too well for the egyptians, did it?

I will allow the workers to finish their assignments before roading.

All told, we're pretty phat on hammers. In theory, we might be able to out-produce Catherine, that naighty girl.