SGOTM 01 - Geezers

[juballs2001]

Turn 1, 3970 BC: Thebes has been founded.

Turn 11, 3670 BC: Barbarian's Lion (2.00) vs Geezers's Warrior (2.40)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Combat Odds: 27.0%
Turn 11, 3670 BC: (Animal Combat: +20%)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Geezers's Warrior is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Geezers's Warrior is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Geezers's Warrior is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Geezers's Warrior is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Geezers's Warrior is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Barbarian's Lion is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 11, 3670 BC: Geezers's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Lion!


here is a more in depth one...

#0 4000BC
Move Settler and Warrior

#1 3970BC
Found Thebes... and find lots of good things!
more cows north... and when Thebes expands we get Stone, Rice and Cows!

3940-3550BC
Warrior exploring.... not much else.

3550BC
Meet The Russians (Catharine)

3550-3430BC
Continue exploring... not one goody hut found

3430BC
worker built(warrior), AH complete. go for Mysticism next.

3430-3190BC
Warrior finds nothing... no huts, but a solid choke point to the south west. and a solid location for a second city to the north.

3190BC
Connect Cows. Warrior complete, set Thebes to Settler.
Mysticism in 3 turns. No religions founded yet worldwide.

End Turn There.

A few notes

Production can be changed in Thebes if needed.
the worker needs to road the hills in order to gain acess to the rice.
i highly suggest we get to that choke point first... because i am 99% sure that is where Russia came from

 

[Mauer]

Looks like quite a start there juballs!

I think Mysticism is a great second choice. As far as a diplo chance is concerned a religion shouldn't be a problem right? By that time we should have had "Free Religion" for quite some time right? Plus it should help us economically as well. If I'm wrong then please tell me.

 

[Ronald]

got the save, will play this evening or tomorrow morning.

 

[juballs2001]

Looks like quite a start there juballs!

I think Mysticism is a great second choice. As far as a diplo chance is concerned a religion shouldn't be a problem right? By that time we should have had "Free Religion" for quite some time right? Plus it should help us economically as well. If I'm wrong then please tell me.

yes and no.... hopefully by the time we get free religion we can use it to its full potential...
i would like to stay away from religions for the most part...

i highly suggest going the masonry route next, that way we get stone quarries and then bronze working. then bee lining to math asap.
if it is possible to get the pyramids it could really help us out as i suspect an early war with russia is imminant. thinking about it as im talking thouhg, maybe thats more of a reason to avoid the pyramids... use those turns to build a rax and units.
best way to win an early close war... horse archers, we have horses in our future... lets use them

my tech path...
finish myst.
masonry.
suggest pottery
horseback riding... we need those archers.

 

[Ronald]

I had a look at the save:

I will switch to warrior untill we grow to size two, this will give the settler at the same time as now.

I hate the choice of mysticism. It does nothing for our development. We will be beaten to early religions and we don't need it at all. There are only two reasons to for mysticism. Either go for it first for an early religion or if you want to build stonehenge. Since we did not strat with mysticism, we have only a very slight chance for an early religion and since we are creative we don't need stonehenge to let our cities grow.

We never talked about mysticism as the second tech. Any other choice (mining, hunting, pottery, even writing) would have been better!
I have no clue why you started to research it.

For next developments, I thing we need to go mining, fishing, pottery, masonry and BW I don't know in which order.

Any suggestions? I will play tomorrow morning.

 

[The-Hawk]

I've take a look at the save as well. Had a heart attack when I saw us at war with Inca, forgot we were locked at war !

Thebes is gonna rock as a capital! Any thoughts on how we should build it out? I'm thinking we might want to make it a science center. If so, we might want to get to writing quickly so we can build a library and get a GS started.

Juballs2001, I agree on the chokepoint to the SW. I think we should send our first settler to the hill just south of the cows on the choke point (or the hill SW of the cows, depends on what we find when we open up the FOW down there). If we keep borders closed, then we can settle the area around Thebes at our leisure. Closed borders will affect diplomacy, but I'm assuming we can open them up after we get our initial cities built and not hurt ourselves too bad.

I tend to agree with Ronald on mysticism. I'm not sure that would have been my next tech. If we want to go for an Oracle slingshot, we'll need it, but not right away. No big deal though...

If we want to start a science center in Thebes, and are willing to take a chance on barbs, my suggestions on tech order... Finish Myst, Pottery, Writing, Masonry, Mining, BW. Pottery first to get some cottages going on the FP, Writing next to start our science center going, Masonry before Mining so we can use the stone tile for hammers.

If we decide we don't want a science center, or are nervous about barb archers knocking on our door... then I would think Mining and BW should be first so we can spin up some axes. However, I personally think we should agressively go for a science center... I think this will be a long game and we will need to invest in strong science. If we get several cottages up in Thebes, along with an academy, we will start to zoom on techs. Guess it all depends on how much risk we are willing to take!

I'm thinking our third city is up by the horsies. I marked a couple of spots, I personally like the red dot better than the blue. With the FP's up there, this also is a candidate for a science center or GP factory.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Like Ronald I am somewhat disapointed at the choice of Mysticism for the second tech. However I notice that according to the chart Mysticism is cheaper than Mining if you want to go for Masonry as third tech. Perhaps juballs2001 could share his thinking on the choice of this tech? I would still have preferred Mining instead. On a positive note we certainly know a lot more about the world.

I have made an attempt at a dot map, shaky lines and all, for the team's consideration. Feel free to criticise. I have already noticed that blue dot should probably move one tile NE to make the desert tile do some thing useful.

I am not sure that we can get to blue dot to close the choke point before Cathy.

EDIT: Can someone tell me how to get the picture inline rather than added as an attachment.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I see The-Hawk snuck in a post with another dot map whilst I was writing my previous post

 

[Ronald]

I see The-Hawk snuck in a post with another dot map whilst I was writing my previous post

I like your blue dot as next city. Hopefully we can get there before Cathy. Red dot after that, unless we find something great to the East (5 East of Thebes).

I think I will go pottery first, then masonry, then fishing; Thebes should become our commercial powerhouse. (first build one more settler, then I would try for the pyramids)
Red dot could be our production city, so we need one more as GL factory.
Having said that, floodplains near Thebes should build cottages.

By the way, as soon as we can't run 100% science the whole time, please don't set the science rate to anything other than either 0 or 100. Everything in between is a waste (because of rounding)! Micromanaging is not dead in Civ4!

There is a great thread about MM in the strategy article section. Please read it.

 

[The-Hawk]

Ronald, three questions:

- Why fishing? This seems like a lower priority to me. Even in cases where we have plans to build a city on the coast, there are bonus tiles for the first couple of pop to work. I think it will be a while before we need to work ocean tiles.

- It sounds like there is agreement on founding the second city at the choke point. I'm not sure I like where Sam_Yeager has his red dot for our 3rd city. I see where it brings the fish in, but I'm not a huge fan of ocean resources... barb galleys always seem to unhook them. I'd rather be futher east, and get a bunch of those FP into the cross.

- Your thoughts on a science center? Sounds like you don't think we need one?

 

[Ronald]

Ronald, three questions:
- Why fishing? This seems like a lower priority to me. Even in cases where we have plans to build a city on the coast, there are bonus tiles for the first couple of pop to work. I think it will be a while before we need to work ocean tiles.

Yes, fishing is not a real priority, but we will need the health resources sooner or later. So my first research will be masonry, hook up the stones, let Thebes grow to 3, start building a settler. After masonry pottery. Then it is way beyond my turns and we can decide wht's best next. Mining, BW and writing will be needed for instance.

- It sounds like there is agreement on founding the second city at the choke point. I'm not sure I like where Sam_Yeager has his red dot for our 3rd city. I see where it brings the fish in, but I'm not a huge fan of ocean resources... barb galleys always seem to unhook them. I'd rather be futher east, and get a bunch of those FP into the cross.

I will explore futher with our warrior. I can only get one settler in my turns. Then we know more about the map and can decide about the third city.

- Your thoughts on a science center? Sounds like you don't think we need one?

Actually commerce = science in the beginning. So Theben is a science city at 100% science and a commerce city at 0 science. Only when we start to build specialised buildings such as libraries or markets, the city tends more to science or to commerce.

 

[Mauer]

Dang, I'll be sure and post my every turn so that I don't get criticized the same way. Remember "have fun"! If you're expecting for everyone to play at the same level as you, well....that's just ridiculous.

 

[Ronald]

Dang, I'll be sure and post my every turn so that I don't get criticized the same way. Remember "have fun"! If you're expecting for everyone to play at the same level as you, well....that's just ridiculous.

Sorry, I did not want to be harsh, but if we don't point out what we think is a mistake, we won't be able to learn. So please don't take my cricism personally. I am far from being good in civ4, I learn in every game and I have not played many. If I do something you don't agree with, please say so. I am a strong believer that only with open discussion we can become better.
If I have hurt anybodies feelings, please accept my apology.

 

[The-Hawk]

Remember "have fun"!

Well said...

It's possible that none of us have been teammates on an SG team before. Probably worth a little discussion to make sure we are all on the same page philosophically.

In my initial post in the sign-in thread, I said: "Prefer not to play on an extremely competitive team. I'm looking for a team that is willing to relax and learn from mistakes (and share a few chuckles in the process)." Several of you seemed to gravitate to that idea.

I'm prepared to accept as a foregone conclusion that we will not win this competition... there are some teams in place with outstanding civ'ers who have played together in the past and are well aligned in style and thought process. The nice thing is, if you accept we probably won't win, then there is no pressure to play "the perfect game"!

As such, I would like to propose that our "mission" in priority order is:

1) Have fun.
2) Learn how to play civ better.
3) Do as well as we can versus the other teams.

Part of learning is making mistakes, I think a groundrule should be "mistakes are expected". As Ronald points out, we will only learn from mistakes through discussion, let's just keep it all in the context of our main objective of having fun.

 

[juballs2001]

I hate the choice of mysticism. It does nothing for our development. We will be beaten to early religions and we don't need it at all. There are only two reasons to for mysticism. Either go for it first for an early religion or if you want to build stonehenge. Since we did not strat with mysticism, we have only a very slight chance for an early religion and since we are creative we don't need stonehenge to let our cities grow.

how about next time we discuss the situation then...

the save was thrown my way... i offered to go first..

the only thing we talked about was first tech and opening moves... well once we got AH. i just went for another tech.

so how about next time we further discuss and outline the sequence for the turnset... that way we dont b1tch and complain after words

 

[Ronald]

Well said...
It's possible that none of us have been teammates on an SG team before. Probably worth a little discussion to make sure we are all on the same page philosophically.

OK, one 'philosophical' remark: I enjoy the discussion before the turns. Everybody should contribute there. After the discussion it's somebodies turns and he should play along the lines of the previos discussion. Everybody makes mistakes and nobody plays a perfect game. But I really do expect to play as discussed beforehand. Whenever something unexpected comes up or the player has all of a sudden a complete different idea, he should interrupt the turns and bring his new idea up for discussion. This was the reason why I was so disappointed. I hope we agree along this line.

I'm prepared to accept as a foregone conclusion that we will not win this competition... there are some teams in place with outstanding civ'ers who have played together in the past and are well aligned in style and thought process. The nice thing is, if you accept we probably won't win, then there is no pressure to play "the perfect game"!

I don't expect to win either. Nevertheless I will play as best as I can.

As such, I would like to propose that our "mission" in priority order is:

1) Have fun.
2) Learn how to play civ better.
3) Do as well as we can versus the other teams.

Completely agree.

 

[juballs2001]

the reason this team was brought together was to learn... not to win.

so learning comes out of discussion.
so maybe that discussion should not be
"i disagree with choosing mysticism, it was a terrible mistake"
because basically that is what you said.

as opposed to constructive criticism such as.
"why did we choose mysticism, we possibly should have discussed where we were going after AH in tech research"
any constructive criticism on a team that is here only to learn would really help the players that maybe dont have all the great tactics and shortcuts known in civ4


my 2 cents

 

[Ronald]

the reason this team was brought together was to learn... not to win.
"i disagree with choosing mysticism, it was a terrible mistake"
because basically that is what you said.

as opposed to constructive criticism such as.
"why did we choose mysticism, we possibly should have discussed where we were going after AH in tech research"

my 2 cents

Point well taken - sorry

 

[markh]

If you look at the chart we are 3rd at 3190BC, so keep it on guys. I think there will not be one team that has only experts in it. We will keep it relaxed and see what we can achieve.
Discussion is the best indicator whether a team will do good or not. Of course there will be differences in opinions. Actually many times my suggestions in teams were not taken, but I never took them personal. This is the key. Sometimes it is difficult to express your opinion in writing, so criticism gets over much harsher, but actually it is not meant that way. Especially for me as a non English it is sometimes difficult to find the right words.

 

[Ronald]

Turn 0 (3190 BC): Change settler to warrior, move warrior SW, move worker to rice, start farm

Turn 1 (3160 BC): warrior SW

Turn 2 (3130 BC): warrior SW

Turn 3 (3100 BC): discover mysticsim, start masonry, Thebes grow two size 2, switch to settler, worker SW

Turn 4 (3070 BC): warrior defeats lion, warrior in Thebes is healed, send him exploring to the East

Turn 5 (3040 BC): move warriors

Turn 6 (3010 BC): move warriors, hinduism has been found

Turn 7 (2980 BC): warrior defeats lion, gets first promotion. I leave it open so far

Turn 9 (2950 BC): see perfect site for GL factory: fish clams and 6 floodplains; worker finished farm, start road

Turn 10 (2920 BC): move warrior

Turn 11 (2890 BC): reach Cathies borders. She is very close to us. There would be a perfect spot for a city: Cows, horses and 2 gems!

Turn 12 (2860 BC): road finished, worker NE

Turn 13 (2830 BC): borders in Thebes expand, worker starts road

Turn 14 (2800 BC): send warrior back to Thebes in case barbarians start to show up

Turn 15 (2770 BC): nothing

Turn 16 (2740 BC): worker finishes road, connects rice with Thebes, move NW

Turn 17 (2710 BC): discover masonry, start pottery, move worker on stone; Cathis comes with two archers + settler towards choke point, not good

Turn 18 (2680 BC): start build quarry

Turn 19 (2650 BC): nothing

Turn 20 (2620 BC): Buddhism is found, Thebes builds settler, Cathy found city at choke point, that's bad now, in the long run one more city at an excellent spot for us.
Now it is decision time:

We have three city sites to discuss:

Blue dot: to stop Cathy from futher expansion. The site is not as good as the original choke point, but still it has clams and cow.
Since we are creative we should be able to keep the cow. It is a not too bad production city.

Red or pink dot: Excellent city with two cows, horses and (pink) with fish or (red) without fish.
Pink hs the disadvantage of some overlap with Thebes, red has no fish. Both possibilities are great.

Green dot: GL farm with fish, clams and floodplains.

I would settle: blue, pink, green

The reason for that:
1) I would like to stop Cathy.
2) Production of pink (red) is ecellent
3) GL factory is only running with civil service (some time to go)

juballs2001
Ronald just played
markh up
Mauer on deck
Sam_Yeager
The-Hawk