SGOTM 04 - Gypsy Kings

Conquistador 63 · Apr 9, 2007

Coming back from Easter holidays, I was posting a somewhat long reply last night in the middle of a thunderstorm...of course a power shortage happened before I could send it. :mad:

Let's see if I can still remember its main points (if it is not too late :mischief:

):
- i vote for waiting for Optics
- i vote for keeping K's cities -

wait... there is a new save available! I'll go check it before continuing... :scan:

Ronnie1 · Apr 9, 2007

Very Eventful final 6 turns!!

I played 1 extra so I could pound on Kahn for 1 turn. :blush:

I declared on the turn before and moved into his territory. He brought his first attack stack (the Keshik/Archer stack) right next to Old Sarai. I was able to raze Old Sarai and put a pretty good hurt on the counter. He only has the 2 archers left and they are injured from collateral damage. We really didn't get very lucky with the RNG this go round. None of the cats withdrew form combat, we have 4 left, 2 are injured. All of the non cat attackers won. I probably should have gotten 1 more defender onto the captured workers, that was a mistake. :sad:

I traded Lit to Kahn for all of his gold, about 300iirc before I declared on him, so we can run 100% Science until Machinery is done.

All that was after Gandhi landed 3 Longbows and a Sword @ OZ! I was able to hold it, but it wasn't pretty.

And you will see that Gandhi has founded a new city on our continent on the peninsula.

I believe that we are in for some serious fighting for the next few turnsets!

The roster order is:

da_Vinci - UP NOW
Jon Shaw - on deck
Conquistador 63 - in the hole
g_storrow - waiting
Ronnie1 - just played

Immaculate - in reserve until further notice

The Autolog

Spoiler :

EDIT: Sorry about razing Old Sarai, I thought that the 1 good city argument was the one we had agreed on.
@dV, There is a Keshik in the fog headed for the Marble.

Conquistador 63 · Apr 9, 2007

Well done, R1!

Random thoughts time then:

Now that the city is razed, when/where should we resettle? I favored keeping it (had a religion for culture generation) but won't discuss over past issues.
Also, if possible upgrade the spears to combat2, which opens up formation (anti mounted promotion).
We might want to scout W of Ferrous - maybe a new G's city up there too?
And to dV: please don't stop troop production in Nidaros for any stinking harbor - not until we find a bunch of reasonable leaders to trade with!

g_storrow · Apr 9, 2007

I think we shoudl have kept old sarai.

but never mind.

Everything seems fine. but I dont understand why we keep building trimremes gandhi has too many for us to beat and I think we need to get rid of the mongols if we lose the work boats it is bad news but I think a small price to pay for getting rid of khan.

I agree with C63 the more troops we have eth better.

Get that settler in place asap.
That is te problem with new cities is that they take ages to build up to get to working.

da_Vinci · Apr 9, 2007

Ronnie1 said:
All that was after Gandhi landed 3 Longbows and a Sword @ OZ! I was able to hold it, but it wasn't pretty. And you will see that Gandhi has founded a new city on our continent on the peninsula.

I hope you knew that was coming ... as the divining da_Vinci predicted the attack in # 320 (but not that it would be longbows! Is the AI that smart, to realize that our axe defense could be attacked with LB?)

What is the counter to OFFENSIVE LB? Horse archers? Maybe cover promoted swords? I guess we'll have berserkers before the iron is on line though.

Ronnie1 said:
EDIT: Sorry about razing Old Sarai, I thought that the 1 good city argument was the one we had agreed on.

I think that choices are either not so clear cut, or we are changing our minds more often in this game than usual. I recall we had what looked like a 1 good city consensus in the north (which I figured Ferrous would be), but after G founded there, the consensus became don't bother (which surprised me).

I know I was waffling between raze, and later moving toward keep.

Now that it is razed, only way to make that make sense is to found to get the gold and the corn both I would think.

Ronnie1 said:
@dV, There is a Keshik in the fog headed for the Marble.

Thanks for the heads up! :goodjob:

Conquistador 63 said:
Now that the city is razed, when/where should we resettle? I favored keeping it (had a religion for culture generation) but won't discuss over past issues.

Also, if possible upgrade the spears to combat2, which opens up formation (anti mounted promotion).

We might want to scout W of Ferrous - maybe a new G's city up there too?

And to dV: please don't stop troop production in Nidaros for any stinking harbor - not until we find a bunch of reasonable leaders to trade with!

Anyone NOT in favor of settling to get corn and gold both?

Is combat II avail right after combat I? If so, could promote to that at birth (if we make any more spears). After we can make berserkers, I assume spear production stops? Also, do we agree no sense making archers as they don't get the free promotion? Or do we like them because they are cheap?

Yes, not enough trade route income for 50% increase to mean much yet from harbors, so I agree.

Not at the save now ... more shortly when I am

Is there that much to discuss, or should I play tonight? 10 turns max it would seem.

dV

Ronnie1 · Apr 9, 2007

Thanks for the heads up!

The reason for the new Spear in Florence. I figured the other 2 with the Axe will be moving towards the new city on the coast.

Anyone NOT in favor of settling to get corn and gold both?

I favor the forest spot W of the city ruins getting both resources and the already improved tiles.

I favor lots more troops, Cats and Berserkers!

We will need 2-4 Caravels when available.

Is there that much to discuss, or should I play tonight? 10 turns max it would seem.

@dV,
I don't see much discussion necessary.
The GS is waiting in Nidaros to bulb Optics as soon as Machinery comes in. Good Luck!

Conquistador 63 · Apr 9, 2007

da_Vinci said:
What is the counter to OFFENSIVE LB? Horse archers? Maybe cover promoted swords? I guess we'll have berserkers before the iron is on line though.

If we had HBRiding, I'd say yes as HA are immune to LB's 1st strikes. But we don't, and berserkers are just around the corner, so...

da_Vinci said:
Is combat II avail right after combat I? If so, could promote to that at birth (if we make any more spears). After we can make berserkers, I assume spear production stops? Also, do we agree no sense making archers as they don't get the free promotion? Or do we like them because they are cheap?

I meant the existing spears, some of them have pending promotions, others might gain a few ones in the next war. Now that we're at war I think we must promote every troop on the front we can. Too risky to "wait and see the best promotion...", as counterattacks are most likely.

da_Vinci · Apr 9, 2007

Actually, we have some questions for discussion.

It's baaaaaack! Kolhapur ... if it is a threat, we could take it out with ease. One cover promoted axe ought to do it ... before G lands reinforcements. But you know I am not doing that again without discussion! :mischief:

I think that the G border at Ferous is just Bangalore, but I'll have a look.

In Ferrous, if I work the grass, pop grows in 5 at which time I can whip the Library for 3 pop and get that fat cross coming. 2 motherland red faces (Hmm ... only had pop 1 when I took it ... are we breeding Indians or Vikings there?). Chop a forge after lib, and get some of Khan's workers up to road Nidaros to Ferrous.

Nidaros ... I get an axe in 1 turn, which I need in Cibola. No trireme for now (no hammers invested). If we lose the clams, so be it. I guess HE works for the ships as well as land troops.

After we bulb optics, caravels should hold off G's Triremes :goodjob:

Cibola: The axe in the city is going to the north hill. Which is why I need the Nidaros axe for the city. The axe south of Nidaros goes west too ... border with G must be secure! Florence is going to spit out a spear and an axe in the next two turns.

I am going to station a spear on the marble, and move one north of Khan's archers.

Tabriz ... I assume we raze it? If it was just south of the horses, one might consider keeping it (could farm 3 tiles), but were it is there is no food, not worth keeping (what was Khan thinking?).

So the two big questions are: Raze Kolhapur? Raze Tabriz? I think yes to both ... If G builds an SOD in Kolhapur, it will be a big threat to our NW border before we are done with Khan. He is showing enough aggression (see what hunger does to the psyche? :lol:

) that I am sure he will be back again soon. And Tabriz is in a useless location.

But I await some discussion before proceeding.

Edit: I think I will play about 5 turns or so and upload before a final move on either city.

Well, maybe not ... played to turn 225, see next post.

dV

Ronnie1 · Apr 9, 2007

Tabriz ... I assume we raze it?

I say yes!

Well, maybe not ... played to turn 225, see next post.

I don't see a next post?

Raze Kolhapur?

I say no! I wouldn't go near it.

da_Vinci · Apr 9, 2007

Played to turn 225.

Highlights:

Did everything I planned turn 211. interturn, G attacks NW hill in Cibola with sword and cat, both die. :goodjob:

(Go Atlantic Wall!!). G kills our trireme :cry:

Khan cats our chariot on the workers and kills it :cry:

all gone!

212: I kill his two archers and that damn cat !! :mad:

interturn G pillages our clams. :sad:

Spend time building troops, founding New Sarai where it belongs, keeping our defenses up.

Turn 217 Mach comes in. Bulb optics. Research drama for fast culture in conquered cities (theatres). Whip a berserker in Cibola to rid unhappiness. :goodjob:

interturn G impales an axe and a cat on NW tile of the Atlantic Wall.

219 Mehmed II sails up in a trireme ... willing to trade, and I worry that if I don't, he'll trade with K and we lose the chance. I get Med, Monoth, Monarchy, HBriding and 30 gold for CS.

220 Tabriz had a longbow and 3 keshiks a few turns back ... two came out and I ate them with spears. Spent a cat on Tabriz, killed the third Keshik last turn. This turn killed the wounded LB and razed the city: secures the flank for moving on Karakorum. Have left Kolhapur intact, but troops ready to take if needed.

Somewhere here I make two caravels and attack G's two triremes ... lose both Caravels! :cry:

Bad RNG luck there! But they are almost dead, so I make two more and kill the triremes. One caravel is heading NE, and one is healing in Nidaros.

Army converging on Karakorum ... have had one turn of bombarding defenses.

Florence has forge and trading post done ... can make ships here to free Nidaros for berserker production. OZ has granary and library now. Ferrous has library, chopping forge. Roaded to Nidaros. New Sarai working on Library.

pre 225: G lands two war elephants NW of Cibola attacking the axe ... one dies, but axe dies to second eleph. Our other axe comes west to kill it on our turn. Atlantic wall needs to be berserkers now.

If we take Karakorum and then Turfan, Khan will be gutted! :goodjob:

I hope this time, it meets with everyone's approval :eek:

dV

Upload log:

Spoiler :

da_Vinci · Apr 10, 2007

Autolog:

Spoiler :

Thoughts for next turns: I think that the berserker between OZ and Cibola, and the one being made in Nidaros, need to take positions on the Atlantic Wall. Then G's elephants are not a problem.

I am not worried about Kolhapur now, as our defenses are good I think. If everyone agrees, there is a cat SSE of it that can go to the Khan war, along with cat finishing in Cibola. The axe is defending the worker mining the gems at OZ ... second worker on the way.

Worker pair in Ferrous chopping ... after chop, see if we can whip the forge. Then a barracks ... mine the iron when available.

That leaves third worker pair to work in New Sarai ... let's chop forest! If we switch to theatre, we can build it sooner I think for the fat cross.

We are one tile away from a southern east-west road link (3N 1W of New S) ... I'd build that before going to OZ gems (cats arrive from north faster). I think we can move the non-medic spear in New Sarai SW to join the cat and axe.

A new great general will be arriving shortly ... what do we do with him? Double train in Nidaros? Promote our SOD (and free upgrade to berserker for one axe)?

Our faster caravels should get us to circumnav first ... maybe curl second one NW and make one more fast in Nidaros to run SE. We want circumnav to harrass G's space rivals later.

Economy is getting tight ... Unit supply is a factor now ... that will improve as we take K out, but also time to think about courthouses.

One red face for WW in a few cities ... could be worse.

After we get to astronomy, we might consider giving G Cibola at that time, so he gets some use out of G Lib before Sci meth obsoletes it. We will be well established in Mongolia by then. Also Astro will obsolete Colossus, so we could even give him Nidaros soon after that (after we build our fleet).

I've been bombarding Karakorum from the safety of forest behind river. Be sure to take our SOD 1SW to attack from dry land eventually!

We finally have some production power to work with! :goodjob:

and our UU available! :goodjob:

Good hunting, Jon!! :goodjob:

Ronnie1 · Apr 10, 2007

Nice work dV! :goodjob:

The roster order is:

da_Vinci - just played
Jon Shaw - UP NOW
Conquistador 63 - on deck
g_storrow - in the hole
Ronnie1 - waiting

Immaculate - in reserve until further notice

Will look closer at the save later.

da_Vinci · Apr 10, 2007

Jon said he was away back on post 249 March 27. Anyone know if he is back yet? We have not heard from him since March 30 and perhaps he is away from internet access.

Maybe in the interest of speed of play, if we don't hear a "got it" in the 24h window, do a flip (not a skip): put C63 up and Jon "on deck"? That way we don't lose 72 hours waiting, as I think at this point major game plan is pretty clear: Kill Khan! Defend our core! Go explore!

If we don't hear from Jon after C63 plays, then skip to g_s.

@ C63: if you are the one to play on from my save, I think you will like your setup this time better than your last turnset!

G has a galley he is using to shuttle troops to attack Cibola ... and he always attacks the NW Gold hill. I'd be sure to get a berserker entrenched there, and the North hill as well, ASAP. We have one on the road and one done after end turn in Nidaros. I think the cats and axes are sufficient for the Karakorum assault, so no need to rush those two berserkers south. Needed more in the north , IMHO. It is much more fun to play with an impregnable Atlantic Wall!

(Call me Rommel :lol:

)

dV

Conquistador 63 · Apr 10, 2007

I'll wait to hear from R1. I had a quick glance at the save earlier today. I noticed we're researching calendar then astro (which would take 50~70 turns?) :eek:

Well, Mehmet was willing to trade calendar. He had feudalism to trade aswell (not greyed out), but I couldn't find out what would be an acceptable trade for him. This happens a lot in my games, and I admit I don't understand why. He also had engineering, but that one was indeed blocked. Are we sure this is the desired research path?

da_Vinci · Apr 10, 2007

Conquistador 63 said:
I'll wait to hear from R1. I had a quick glance at the save earlier today. I noticed we're researching calendar then astro (which would take 50~70 turns?) Well, Mehmet was willing to trade calendar. He had feudalism to trade aswell (not greyed out), but I couldn't find out what would be an acceptable trade for him. This happens a lot in my games, and I admit I don't understand why. He also had engineering, but that one was indeed blocked. Are we sure this is the desired research path?

IIRC, when he initially arrived, we had two techs he did not have, he would only give gold for the one other than CS, and only the set he gave us for CS. Maybe he has changed his mind?

Now he will trade drama for calendar, but nothing for feudalism

We could research engineering for the trebs next I suppose ... I thought that calendar would let us plantation the sugars for more commerce, and center world map to get more perspective on our postion.

I thought we wanted to get to Astro ASAP to get our foothold on a new continent. But the caravels are out exploring, so maybe other things before that.

We are at 40% research now due to Unit cost and unit supply primarily ... that should improve as we take more of K's cities. Also, we need to put a citizen back on the gold where the elephant was (NW hill) ... cuts loss from -7 to -2.

dV

Ronnie1 · Apr 10, 2007

I noticed we're researching calendar then astro (which would take 50~70 turns?)

That is a best case scenario at the current science rate. We have everything else we need to get moving across the ocean. After we finish off Kahn we will have the troops and only need the Galleons. Hopefully we will be able to fund some deficit research from Kahns cities. If we don't pop rush in Cibola, we can add a Scientist for a GS in ~24 turns. That will knock about half the time off Astronomy. We may want see what Khan will give us for peace after we take Karakorum and Turfan. Give him 10 turns to move his workers back in range and go at him again.

Terrible luck with the first 2 Caravels! I'd really like to see 2 more for exploring and Gandhi patrol, and rebuild the fishing net @ Nidaros.

I don't see any feasible way to improve the economy in the short run. We will be able to build some CH's after we dismantle Kahn, but not before.

Maybe MM tile use and Specialists.

Cats and Zerks!!! Charge!!!

If no word from Jon by tomorrow AM, C63 should go ahead and play!

Ronnie1 · Apr 12, 2007

Is anyone interseted in playing this turnset?

Conquistador 63 · Apr 12, 2007

Ronnie1 said:
Is anyone interseted in playing this turnset?

Hmmm maybe I should have done it already, but I was waiting for the "C63 up now!" message. :blush:

Never mind, I'll try to do it tonight, provided I don't arrive home too late too drunk from snooker night with friends. :crazyeye:

Conquistador 63 · Apr 13, 2007

I managed to play only a short turnset. Very eventful, as we met most other civs, traded some techs. Siege to Karakorum is not going well. LB's are tough, we lost several cats trying to take them down. Too tired to write much now. More to follow later.

Upload log

Spoiler :

Autolog

Spoiler :

da_Vinci · Apr 13, 2007

Conquistador 63 said:
I managed to play only a short turnset. Very eventful, as we met most other civs, traded some techs. Siege to Karakorum is not going well. LB's are tough, we lost several cats trying to take them down. Too tired to write much now. More to follow later.

Not at the save yet, but looks like K added more LBs to Karakorum. I guess we get to decide if we make an all out attack with what is there and sue for peace and regroup, or if we wait to attack after we get some berzerkers to Karakorum. The latter decision will mean that the collateral damage by the three cats sacrificed will wear off. If we still have greater numbers, in general I'd lean to fight now and make peace if odds look good. I'd hate not to get benefit out of the collateral damage we inflicted.

We appear to have killed more of his units than he killed ours in C63's turns, so we are at least winning the war of attrition. Now that we have Feudalism, longbows with hill promotions may be the troop of choice for the Atlantic Wall?

I think we will want trebs for our overseas war adventure ... I find that they do nicely against LBs.

More comments when I get to see the save.

dV

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