SGOTM 04 - Gypsy Kings

da_Vinci · Apr 1, 2007

Ronnie1 said:
So dV and I seem to be disagreeing often lately. And I must say, I disagree completely with the move to capture Ferrous. I don't see how this helps speed Gandhi into space at all.

As I mentioned above, I think it helps us kill Khan faster, (swords, stable rear border), which lets us help G faster.

Ronnie1 said:
We can win a laurel with 1 city. This game is not about us. We need to build our forces and move south, away from Gandhi.

Agree with moving south, but I think we need a good base, the iron, and a secure northern border to do it.

The game is not about us at the end, and we can win a laurel with 1 city AT THE END. But it IS about us in the middle: if some civ is beating G to space, we need to go put a stop to that. We may need to be his enforcer. So it is about our power at this stage of the game.

I don't think we want to make this a one city challenge. Do people ever do that in permanent war?

Ronnie1 said:
I may be missing something, but I just don't feel like we want to fight Gandhi at all.

This one confuses me a bit ... do you mean not confront the two swords at Cibola? Let him take the city, or at least pillge all the mines? I can't see how that is not a recipe for disaster!

The rationale for saving Cibola is the same rationale for taking Ferrous: we need to thrive too! A small, temporary ding to G in exchange for a big boost to us is worth it, IMO.

Going forward, we are currently researching CS. Bureaucracy in Niaros would be a nice boost. Machinery next and we have our berserkers. If we run scientists in Cibola, we can bulb compass, then its on to Optics and caravels.

Once we road the gold again, happiness is OK. Cibola, Nidaros, and Florence can go whole hog on troop production (maybe another worker or two in between). OZ is coming on line, mostly commerce or GPers I think. Ferrous eventually produces troops as well. But as an early giveaway, no HE there, rather in Florence.

With this approach, maybe we kill off Khan, get caravels out, and even give G Cibola, Oz and Ferrous (and even Niaros?) by 1000 AD?

We might need to whip the cities down to 1 pop before giveaway, or G will have horrific motherland yearning problems. May need to simulate whether the whip unhappiness goes away with a new owner.

dV

da_Vinci · Apr 1, 2007

Conquistador 63 said:
IMHO we should focus on 2 points:
1. Forget about infrastructure in our cities, amass troops to get Khan's cities instead. Cats, cats, cats and a few spears might do the trick. Chariots to pillage metals/horses.

Agree that Nidaros, Florence and Cibola have all the infrastructure they need (well, maybe forge in Florence). OZ and Ferrous have some infrastructure needs, of course.

Khan has iron now, or will soon, as he took that barb city in the east. We may want a mixed army ... axes, spears and cats (and eventualy swords?)

Conquistador 63 said:
2. Research the seafaring techs, we might get on the move, as G looks a lot more uppity than we would expect.

Before CS? I think bureacracy would be a huge help (faster techs, faster troops), and since Mach is needed for caravels anyway, then we get our berserkers.

It will be a while before we get to astronomy. Sooner or later we have to hold the line on G and fight him defensively (Ferrous was a defensive move IMO) until we can migrate.

And we can't effectively colonize unless we can build FP there right away. That means 8 cities and 6 courthouses. Mother country must be strong to colonize, until the colonies are strong.

So we have to defend a core empire of 8 cities in the current landmass until we have say 6 developed cities somewhere else. Maybe that means we hold the line at Florence, Old Sarai, and everything south, as the most aggressive giveaway strategy eventually.

Which means sooner or later, we have to defend against G in ernest while we migrate. It is a delicate balance.

dV

Ronnie1 · Apr 1, 2007

da_Vinci said:
I think it would be dangerous to discuss anything related to an ongoing GOTM outside of the official spoiler threads. Of course, it appears that AlanH is not going to be around to police that ... but I'm sure someone would object.

Perhaps more to the point would be the WOTM 7 experience with Ragnar ... I suffered in that game from too much delay in founding cities, and too much delay in going to war with Catherine (if memory serves).

dV

I was pretty successful in that game. I tried to be very directed in my approach. This was after I had lost my second city to the barbs and took 2 tries to get it back.

Ronnie1 · Apr 1, 2007

da_Vinci said:
This one confuses me a bit ... do you mean not confront the two swords at Cibola? Let him take the city, or at least pillge all the mines? I can't see how that is not a recipe for disaster!

The rationale for saving Cibola is the same rationale for taking Ferrous: we need to thrive too! A small, temporary ding to G in exchange for a big boost to us is worth it, IMO.

With this approach, maybe we kill off Khan, get caravels out, and even give G Cibola, Oz and Ferrous (and even Niaros?) by 1000 AD?

We might need to whip the cities down to 1 pop before giveaway, or G will have horrific motherland yearning problems. May need to simulate whether the whip unhappiness goes away with a new owner.

dV

da_Vinci said:
Agree that Nidaros, Florence and Cibola have all the infrastructure they need (well, maybe forge in Florence). OZ and Ferrous have some infrastructure needs, of course.

Khan has iron now, or will soon, as he took that barb city in the east. We may want a mixed army ... axes, spears and cats (and eventualy swords?)

Before CS? I think bureacracy would be a huge help (faster techs, faster troops), and since Mach is needed for caravels anyway, then we get our berserkers.

It will be a while before we get to astronomy. Sooner or later we have to hold the line on G and fight him defensively (Ferrous was a defensive move IMO) until we can migrate.

And we can't effectively colonize unless we can build FP there right away. That means 8 cities and 6 courthouses. Mother country must be strong to colonize, until the colonies are strong.

So we have to defend a core empire of 8 cities in the current landmass until we have say 6 developed cities somewhere else. Maybe that means we hold the line at Florence, Old Sarai, and everything south, as the most aggressive giveaway strategy eventually.

Which means sooner or later, we have to defend against G in ernest while we migrate. It is a delicate balance.

dV

Of course we defend our core cities and resources, I just don't think we should try to hamper G's development. The faster we get off of this rock the better. I think we can build new Palace faster in the new world, maybe FP in Kahn's land to help balance commerce as we pull out. Right now I agree with C63 that we need to produce troops, and lots of them! Start working our way south.
On the subject of whipping down cities before give away. That is probably the best thing to do, unless we think that G would be smart enough to whip off angry pop for his own cultural buildings.

da_Vinci · Apr 1, 2007

Ronnie1 said:
Of course we defend our core cities and resources, I just don't think we should try to hamper G's development. The faster we get off of this rock the better. I think we can build new Palace faster in the new world, maybe FP in Kahn's land to help balance commerce as we pull out. Right now I agree with C63 that we need to produce troops, and lots of them! Start working our way south.

I agree with all of the above. Ferrous was not done to slow G's development (I suspect it was a trivial loss for him) but to secure us a resource (the iron) and some breathing room while we head south. If the iron were not there, I might well have left it alone.

I am curious what you would have suggested if we had founded Ferrous first, then G landed troops there. Abandon it, or defend it? Not a moot point, as this decision may face us in the near future!

Once we get it running, Ferrous could build troops for northern defense, while our other cities build the Khan assault. When we get a new source of iron, I'm happy to give G Ferrous back, and OZ too pretty early.

Palace automatically rebuilds in most populous city when capital falls, right? So maybe we get if for free in the New World. But I wonder if maint will just be too horrific in New World without FP there early. Shades of SGOTM 2?

Ronnie1 said:
On the subject of whipping down cities before give away. That is probably the best thing to do, unless we think that G would be smart enough to whip off angry pop for his own cultural buildings.

That could probably be simulated: set it up in WB, play some turns, and go back to WB to see what G did!

In any case, using the pop to whip troops for us may be more useful that letting G use them, if we are still warring with others

dV

Ronnie1 · Apr 1, 2007

I am curious what you would have suggested if we had founded Ferrous first, then G landed troops there. Abandon it, or defend it? Not a moot point, as this decision may face us in the near future!

This will probably be the first city we give up, the only question will be when?

Palace automatically rebuilds in most populous city when capital falls, right? So maybe we get if for free in the New World. But I wonder if maint will just be too horrific in New World without FP there early. Shades of SGOTM 2?

What if we sail directly to an established capitol city. Capture it! Pop rush culture buildings to balance starvation and then build Palace right away.

Once we get it running, Ferrous could build troops for northern defense, while our other cities build the Khan assault. When we get a new source of iron, I'm happy to give G Ferrous back, and OZ too pretty early.

We need Galleons and Berserkers/Trebs/Pikes and then go go go! So I think we need to take Kahn out now. That is my concern about Ferrous, it is a long way to the front and getting longer with every victory. And we have to hold it and the resources around it from the attack that you and I both know Gandhi is already building troops for.

da_Vinci · Apr 1, 2007

Ronnie1 said:
This will probably be the first city we give up, the only question will be when?

I would say not until we have at least two of Khan's cities ... if we can hold it that long. If G brings such an overhwhelming horde that we can't hold Ferrous (they will have to come by boat), then you will be happy that Ferrous is the target and not Nidaros! That is part of the buying us time argument for taking Kolhapur.

If G does not attack well, then we hold it until we have made some iron troops, or even until we have iron elsewhere (in the southeast?)

Ronnie1 said:
What if we sail directly to an established capitol city. Capture it! Pop rush culture buildings to balance starvation and then build Palace right away.

That could work, but I would still want to have 6 good cities in the motherland at that time ... give one away for each good city we establish in the New World ... and maybe six is too small? We do have to survive! The world will have mature civs when we arrive!

We could take a big city, whip all our other cities below the new world city size, let Nidaros fall, and bingo ... Palace in new world (unless it won't jump continents except as a last resort). Need FP in the homeland for that, as you suggested.

Ronnie1 said:
We need Galleons and Berserkers/Trebs/Pikes and then go go go! So I think we need to take Kahn out now. That is my concern about Ferrous, it is a long way to the front and getting longer with every victory. And we have to hold it and the resources around it from the attack that you and I both know Gandhi is already building troops for.

Those troops are coming whether we own Ferrous or not. If they come for Ferrous, its a diversion and buys time for our core cities. We can always withdraw from Ferrous if that seems best.

If they come straight for Cibola, then Ferrous can build the defenders for the northwest frontier, we will need them!

Ferrous is all about helping us hold G at bay while we go for Khan. It is either a diversion or a source of troops. It frees up other cities to make troops for the south in the event G does come on strong.

And if G never comes, then troops from Ferrous can help in the south by two considerations: the trickle train, or the relay.

Trickle train: say Ferrous builds a unit evey 6 turns. Start marching to Florence. With each build, repeat. Once the first unit arrives in Florence, then evey 6 turns a Ferrous unit shows up in Florence. After the inital time for the first one to arrive, it is as if Ferrous was in Florence!

Relay: Unit in Ferrous marches to Nidaros. When it arrives a Nidaros unit moves south. When it gets to Florence, a Florence unit moves south. This effectively doubles unit movement on each city arrival.

Or we could research HBride and build Horse Archers in Ferrous, for a fast ride to the front.

I think that Ferrous will prove very useful to us ... one way or the other. We will see if the way things play out convinces you too!

dV

g_storrow · Apr 2, 2007

I think R1 is right now is the time to strike at Khan. I agree with conq I reckon spearman and catapults with ocasional axeman should be fine.
For ferrous are we building HE there? If so we don't need to bother with library but if we are giving it soon lets put the HE somewhere else. I personally think put the HE in Nidaros and lets egt those cats out now! None of this forge lets get troops out now.
My only other thought is to attack S first then go E leave his W city as a buffer to hopefully get Judaism.

Are we teching for caravels? Or for berserkers?

Questions for DV: HOw come all the axeman were promoted to cover?
I personally find a mixture of shock, cover and CR are the best way to go (even put shock and cover on the same unit works well), all of them seemed to get cover. CR is the most powerful promotion as 3 CR berserker will be very tough to beat. Just my thoughts.

da_Vinci · Apr 2, 2007

g_storrow said:
I think R1 is right now is the time to strike at Khan. I agree with conq I reckon spearman and catapults with ocasional axeman should be fine.
For ferrous are we building HE there? If so we don't need to bother with library but if we are giving it soon lets put the HE somewhere else. I personally think put the HE in Nidaros and lets egt those cats out now! None of this forge lets get troops out now.
My only other thought is to attack S first then go E leave his W city as a buffer to hopefully get Judaism.

Attack Khan next is fine with me. Likely we give away Ferrous soon, so no HE there I think. Library lets us work the iron after fat cross, but if early giveaway, then maybe Forge first. I we do hold it, it is a good production site.

I think HE in Florence. Good production potential, and we will give it away later than even Nidaros I think.

g_storrow said:
Are we teching for caravels? Or for berserkers?

My idea is CS next for both a step toward berserkers and run Bureaucracy (hammer and commerce boost in Nidaros). Then everything else goes faster.

g_storrow said:
Questions for DV: HOw come all the axeman were promoted to cover?
I personally find a mixture of shock, cover and CR are the best way to go (even put shock and cover on the same unit works well), all of them seemed to get cover. CR is the most powerful promotion as 3 CR berserker will be very tough to beat. Just my thoughts.

I think only two axemen in Ferrous have cover, and I goofed a bit as it should only be one. I so much expected to lose the first to the archer on a hill that I promoted two right off, should have promoted one and attacked. The third axe in Ferrous should be unpromoted, I think, as are the two entrenched in the Cibola hills (or maybe have shock?).

I normally put CR on axes for city assault, or shock to kill melee troops on defense of city or stack. But I have tried to follow Immac's advice in the old Flying V thread to leave things unpromoted until needed.

dV

Ronnie1 · Apr 3, 2007

The roster order is:

da_Vinci - just played
Jon Shaw - skipped
Conquistador 63 - UP NOW
g_storrow - on deck
Ronnie1 - in the hole
Immaculate - waiting

da_Vinci · Apr 3, 2007

OK C63 ... do something good with Ferrous so I can be da_vindicated! :lol:

Might skip the library and chop a forge first ... then barrack and troops? But the iron has to be in our border to mine it, right?

I think we want to stay entrenched on the Cibola gold hills ... If G had landed 4 swords instead of two, he would own it now!

Be sure to re-road gold in Cibola ... that is why we have red faces (I knew I didn't whip THAT much! :lol:

) Worker on pigs gets back fast, and I think g_s invested some turns in a road due W, so might finish in 1 or 2. Might make troops rather than the worker up now (was due to red face).

Khan has iron now ... took the east barb city.

Might whip a forge in Florence when pop is big enough ... build troops until then.

There is a Khan stack south of Florence ... seems to be moving east, but that is why the spear is moving from Nidaros to Florence.

Also, G has two triremes and a galley east of Ferrous (the galley is the one that dropped of the settler and the archer, so is empty I think).

We do have a settler available, so if you take Old Sarai, you could raze it and found 1 West to get the gold too (and no motherland yearning). Or keep it for its infrastructure ... are you familiar with how to see what is built in Khan's cities?

Research ... continue CS, or something else?

This is perhaps the critical point in the game ... we are fighting a two-front war. Defensive in the north, offensive in the south. With only a five city empire (only four without Ferrous), it could be a challenge. Chokonuts may have fallen victim to that challenge, so we must tread with care!

dV

Conquistador 63 · Apr 3, 2007

I gave a look at the game, and I have to admit the situation does not look good. I don't see much to do in a 10 turns set.
I understand your concerns about G setting a foothold in the north, but now our troops are spread too thinly, and it is hard to defend north and attack south at the same time. Our hammer output is too low, troops take way too long to build. :/

I'd like to hear some input from R1 and the other teammates before moving on. g_s suggests HE in Nidaros, that might make sense, although it will delay the start of troop production for some time there.

I don't see the advantage of settling another city right now, we don't have sufficient workers to develop it neither enough troops to defend it. What should we do with the settler? Also, if we manage to capture cities, I tend to keep them. We will want to eliminate K, so the motherland whining won't happen in the future. But then again, this is beginning to sound like just wishful thinking.

Tech: CS is 20something turns away, I tend to continue on it as we lack other good options. p.s. just for the record I wouldn't have lightbulbed currency - too cheap and rather useless at this point. In those ocasions I tend to save the GP for later use.

da_Vinci · Apr 3, 2007

Conquistador 63 said:
I gave a look at the game, and I have to admit the situation does not look good. I don't see much to do in a 10 turns set.
I understand your concerns about G setting a foothold in the north, but now our troops are spread too thinly, and it is hard to defend north and attack south at the same time. Our hammer output is too low, troops take way too long to build. :/

It seems we are changing our minds pretty fast in this game. Looking back at posts 251, 254 adn 255 (page 13) and then 265 and 269 it would appear that there was a consensus for at least one city in the north. Now we have it, but wish we didn't? :confused:

Or maybe not everyone weighed in on that?

I think we are faced with defending north with or without Ferrous (G has his eye on Cibola).

I suppose one option is to leave one defender in Ferrous (or none), and not worry if we lose it. That would solve the troops spread too thin issue.

But if we aren't defending Ferrous, then we are then probably defending Nidaros, so the troops are still not in Mongolia.

Ferrous may be our best hammer location eventually. So keeping it may be the answer to our hammer shortage. My thought is that eventually, Ferrous helps defend the North, and other cities produce troops for the south. It has lots of forest to chop!

So I guess one key question is "Ferrous: use it or lose it?"

Conquistador 63 said:
I'd like to hear some input from R1 and the other teammates before moving on. g_s suggests HE in Nidaros, that might make sense, although it will delay the start of troop production for some time there.

As we eventually fall back from G, Nidaros may go before Florence. And eventually, more hammers in Florence? Why not HE there? There are three forests that chop into Florence, I think. I can live with it in Nidaros though.

Conquistador 63 said:
I don't see the advantage of settling another city right now, we don't have sufficient workers to develop it neither enough troops to defend it. What should we do with the settler? Also, if we manage to capture cities, I tend to keep them. We will want to eliminate K, so the motherland whining won't happen in the future. But then again, this is beginning to sound like just wishful thinking.

The settler was part of the settle 1 in the north idea, became superfluous when we captured one there. Only use in near term is resettling Old Sarai to get gold and food both. But maybe we'd rather keep Old Sarai, as you say.

With forests to chop in Ferrous and Florence, maybe one more pair of workers is a good idea (if we follow the patience plan below).

Conquistador 63 said:
Tech: CS is 20something turns away, I tend to continue on it as we lack other good options. p.s. just for the record I wouldn't have lightbulbed currency - too cheap and rather useless at this point. In those ocasions I tend to save the GP for later use.

Well, R1 had mentioned that in 263, but maybe after preisthood to open up CoL, didn't need it. I did not see another use for GM in near term (were we thinking of using 2 on a GAge?), figured the extra trade routes would be a help.

Research will be better after we road the gold and get rid of red faces in Nidaros and Cibola.

Here is a thought ... let's be just a bit patient ... research CS, run bureacracy. Get GS in Cibola to bulb machinery. With the iron in Ferrous, now we can go after Khan with berserkers. Build our cat army while we wait. Put a forge in Ferrous and Florence when we can whip or chop them. Mine hills in Ferrous, and now we have hammers. Hold off on Khan while we build some power.

Or go for Khan with less power ... depends a lot on how offensive G is in the next say 20 turns.

In either case, the next 10 or so turns may run the same ... and if we are mostly in a buildup mode, why just 10 at a time? We need to move this along a bit faster, so maybe more per set for a while? I think the last two have run 15 anyway (last one shouldn't have :sad:

)

As potentially bleak as this might look, are we that far away from where other teams are? In power and score? I don't think so ... so let's not despair too soon!

I follow CRC, Peanut, Xteam, Murky Waters, and One Short Straw on the charts. Scorewise, we are near Xteam and Peanut. Powerwise we are right with CRC and One Short Straw. CRC and Xteam have gone on to do well. Maybe that means G is not so much of a pest as we fear right now.

So, if we can get both CS (res) and Mach (bulb) in 20 turns, lets make two more workers, build cats (after finishing current foot), build HE, bring OZ and Ferrous online and mine Florence, then a berserker/cat assault on Kahn in about 25 to 30 turns? HE in Florence is nice as it is closer to the front.

dV

g_storrow · Apr 4, 2007

The wage war in 25 turns after cat buildup and getting berserkers sounds . Good but we need to build noting but troops and HE.

DV why mention building another 2 workers? I am assumnig we will betaking some of Khans workers. I think we either take the mongols or we struggle big time.

da_Vinci · Apr 4, 2007

g_storrow said:
The wage war in 25 turns after cat buildup and getting berserkers sounds . Good but we need to build noting but troops and HE.

DV why mention building another 2 workers? I am assumnig we will betaking some of Khans workers. I think we either take the mongols or we struggle big time.

Thought is that if we are going wait to build to berserkers and then attack, we have sugar to farm in OZ, five or more forests to chop and five or so hills to mine in Ferrous (if we keep it), three forests to chop for Florence, with a hill to mine and another sugar to farm, and three or four forests to chop in Nidaros, and some gold roads and a mine to build in Cibola.

If we have a plan to do all of that without more workers, that is fine, but seems that the sooner we can chop forges and HE, the faster we make troops in the long run, and worth the investment. We need all this done BEFORE we attack Khan.

Yes, hammers are scarce. Our hammers are in our trees, and in our whip. So we need to max food production, and go chopping, to get the hammers we need.

Addendum: With Colossus and G Lib we have created a commerce and science infrasturcture. Lets run that a few turns while we develop our military/hammer infrastructure (forges, HE, mines) in preparation for the Khan offensive. By the time berserkers are available, our troop production capacity should be looking better (HE, bureacracy). We will have a qualitative troop superiority over Khan, which will minimize our losses. We can bring local numeric superiority to the first attack, then continued production and low losses will lead to global numeric superiority against Khan.

Alternative is to go after Khan right away (or at least before berserkers). In terms of the war with Khan, does waiting help us more than him? I think waiting is better for us.

I agree that this game is playing out differently than we might typically play. Due to limited good city sites for us, and G's insane resources in Delhi. Feels like we are late going on the offensive.

But let's not war too soon here just because we would be warring sooner in another game. Let's base it on the current position of this game. We have untapped (as yet) production potential that we might want to bring online before we go after Khan. If we go later when we are more prepared, we might just end up killing him faster in the long run.

That being said, if a clear plan for war before berserkers looks feasible, I won't object.

dV

Ronnie1 · Apr 4, 2007

I believe we are on the right track in many ways. We want to leave well developed cities for Gandhi to use. We need to stay strong militarily. So we build the best troops we can at the moment to serve our long term goals. IMO those are Cats and a few Spears right now, and a huge pile of Berserkers when we can. If we still intend on leaving this entire landmass to Gandhi, then we need to beeline for Astronomy as soon as we have Berserkers. In the GOTM where we played as the Vikings, I did most of my damage with Berserkers and finished with Grenadiers and Rifles. I know we need to survive much deeper into the game than a Domination win, but I believe that this basic strategy will at least get us into the modern age.
Good Luck C63!!

Conquistador 63 · Apr 4, 2007

Shocking news! Gandhi just unloaded 4 swords next to Cibola! :eek:

We have only a couple axemen defending. :cry:

I just upgraded them to shock, but it is obviously a time for the war council to reunite, after a 12-turn session. A cat can be whipped there.

Until there this was basically a recovery/rebuild turnset. A defending trirreme was killed defending (bad luck). CS was around the corner with 100% research all the way - thanks for the gold, Khan! Enjoy Poly. Some scouting shows Khan has only keshiks/archers. No iron being worked. HE is almost ready in Nidaros. If we'll have to play OCC, should make sense building it there. :rolleyes:

Ferrous is completely passive. No way I'd risk exposing a worker there when Gandhi has 4 trirremes around and could unload a galley any moment. I regret not sending its defenders to Cibola earlier in my turn.

Upload log

Spoiler :

Autolog:

Spoiler :

Ronnie1 · Apr 4, 2007

I am away from my game computer until Sat or Sun. Could someone please upload a screenshot or 2 of our tacticle situation?

The roster order is:

da_Vinci - waiting
Jon Shaw - skipped
Conquistador 63 - just played
g_storrow - UP NOW
Ronnie1 - on deck
Immaculate - in the hole

How many and what type of troops can we get to Cibola in 1-2 turns?

da_Vinci · Apr 4, 2007

My first thought is to move the chariots in OZ and Florence to Cibola ... OZ might get there now. Whip the cat, then cat any sword stack next turn and use the axes to finish them off. By then the chariots are in the city for defense. We will lose some mines again, it seems.

I think when we clean the swords out, we will have to go back to entrenching on the two Gold hills NW and N ... doesn't attack direct from the ship incur a 50% penalty (unless amphib promotion)?

Looks like we have enough visibilty in Ferrous to see G' galley coming, so I think we could send a worker up there. At least to connect a road ... no berserkers unless we get that iron up! OZ is also going nowhere fast ... I think we need to farm the river ruins to speed pop to rush that library.

We may be coming out of the doldrums now that CS and bureaucracy are near. GS in 11 turns for machinery.

dV

Screenshot for R1

Ronnie1 · Apr 4, 2007

no berserkers unless we get that iron up!

I believe we can build Berserkers with copper!

SGOTM 04 - Gypsy Kings

Gypsy Prince

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Prince

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Prince

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Deity

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Attachments

Deity

Similar threads