SGOTM 04 - Gypsy Kings

da_Vinci · Jun 19, 2007

Conquistador 63 said:
For every 10% culture, you gain 1 happiness.
+1 more with a theatre
+1 more with a broadcast tower
+1/2 more with a colosseum (you need 20% culture for 1 happiness with the colosseum).

Thus, the buildings help the slider to be more cost-effective but they are not strictly required. I hope I have understood (and addressed) your question correctly.

Here's a good research source on happiness issues.

Very useful information as always :goodjob:

. I had thought that buildings were required, glad to see that they are not, and that 10% can buy 2 happy with a theatre, and 20% can buy 5 happy with a theatre and a colos.

So have you used the culture slider in your games, and do you think it is a good tradeoff? Or are you so peaceful that happiness is rarely an issue for you?

I am begining to think that adding the culture slider to my mid and late game warring may be just the thing to get me my first emperor win ... WW in the late game always drags me down.

dV

Jon Shaw · Jun 19, 2007

Great to see lots of posting again.

Our CR3 infantry have about 90% odds vs H's CG2 infantry...but this will decrease as they fortify

I think H is pretty weak now, I doubt he'll be able to counter attack any more. I think we should raze kerkouance but keep his other 2 cities to keep us strong as we move out of our old continent.

I suspect that H would bypass ny troops we leave outside hippo and go straight for the city each time, so I think this is unlikely to help (indeed, it'll just spread our troops even thinner). I don't expect his attacks to be strong though, just the odd artillery unit, probably on its own.

I quite like using culture to quell unhappiness, it also helps the borders of newly captured cities expand. At the same time, we're going to struggle to attack H until we have some suicide artillery to use- I don't think we should attack with our precious CR3 infantry unless the odds are 90-95% or above.

After artillery it is a long way to tanks. At least with everyone at war the AI research rate will slow, giving us a chance to catch up. Bad for early space race victories, but then I think we're agreed that we're only hoping to win it before the game ends rather than early.

Still it is looking good: H is going to fall, it is just a matter of time, and once he's gone, we'll be much better off for war weariness.

da_Vinci · Jun 19, 2007

Jon Shaw said:
Great to see lots of posting again.

Our CR3 infantry have about 90% odds vs H's CG2 infantry...but this will decrease as they fortify

Maybe one cannon attack (not our precious one, but another one) and a green infantry to soften up the Carthage troops and the odds are good again? I worry that H might make infantry at one every 2-4 turns, or worse, draft them.

Jon Shaw said:
I think H is pretty weak now, I doubt he'll be able to counter attack any more. I think we should raze kerkouance but keep his other 2 cities to keep us strong as we move out of our old continent.

Why not keep all three? If we give G cities, our total city count will be pretty stable.

Jon Shaw said:
I suspect that H would bypass ny troops we leave outside hippo and go straight for the city each time, so I think this is unlikely to help (indeed, it'll just spread our troops even thinner). I don't expect his attacks to be strong though, just the odd artillery unit, probably on its own.

Only 4 land routes to Hippo, and all have a defensive bonus. I think we should occupy them, or at least be ready to if H moves troops. Plus, if Hippo revolts, won't troops inside take a health hit?

It is like the troops on the hills near Cibola.

Jon Shaw said:
I quite like using culture to quell unhappiness, it also helps the borders of newly captured cities expand. At the same time, we're going to struggle to attack H until we have some suicide artillery to use- I don't think we should attack with our precious CR3 infantry unless the odds are 90-95% or above.

I can agree with that ... maybe I can sac some less precious infantry though ...

Jon Shaw said:
After artillery it is a long way to tanks. At least with everyone at war the AI research rate will slow, giving us a chance to catch up. Bad for early space race victories, but then I think we're agreed that we're only hoping to win it before the game ends rather than early.

I forgot to look at who is at war with whom.

Culture slider might save Hippo ... I do have this wild idea of sending troops to H's northern city and pillaging it to death, if I don't have to attack Carthage right away.

What do you think about retreating from Ferrous? I think this might just be the time.

I think we are getting somewhat close to a consensus ... I might play 3-5 turns tonight and upload a mid-turn save ... it may make decisions on attacking issues more clear ... then I can finish the turnset tomorrow. What I really need before proceeding tonight is what everyone thinks about retreating from Ferrous. But maybe happiness from the culture slider makes that a decision that can wait a few turns?

dV

Conquistador 63 · Jun 19, 2007

@dV: When I can't get the needed happiness from luxury resources and/or buildings, I do use the culture slider. Even better if you can whip theaters in the most troublesome cities before doing so.

GL in your turnset.

Jon Shaw · Jun 19, 2007

What about if we finish H before letting G take cities. I'm not sure, but I think that losing cities will generate a lot of WW, so maybe best to get rid of H (and his WW) before we ramp it up from G.

I agree we should start to look at giving G land soon though- he's quite behind and needs to catch up and then take the lead, so a long way to go.

We could do with getting Mehmed involved against brennus, otherwise it'll be the americans against the celts and spanish.

I was suggesting to raze kerkouane because it overlaps so much with the other cities. I don't mind too much though, there are probably enough squares to work if the cities aren't too large

da_Vinci · Jun 19, 2007

Conquistador 63 said:
@dV: When I can't get the needed happiness from luxury resources and/or buildings, I do use the culture slider. Even better if you can whip theaters in the most troublesome cities before doing so.

Makes good sense!

Conquistador 63 said:
GL in your turnset.

Hmm ... didn't we already build Great Library months ago ... and someone else has Great Lighthouse (or did we capture it?) ... oh ... wait ... Good Luck! Yes!, thanks! :lol:

(I just couldn't resist ...)

dV

da_Vinci · Jun 19, 2007

Jon Shaw said:
What about if we finish H before letting G take cities. I'm not sure, but I think that losing cities will generate a lot of WW, so maybe best to get rid of H (and his WW) before we ramp it up from G.

Excellent point, :goodjob:

I had not thought of that! We will hold Ferrous for now.

Jon Shaw said:
We could do with getting Mehmed involved against brennus, otherwise it'll be the americans against the celts and spanish.

Or, if we can finish off H soon, maybe we can get some pickings from Washington as well?

Jon Shaw said:
I was suggesting to raze kerkouane because it overlaps so much with the other cities. I don't mind too much though, there are probably enough squares to work if the cities aren't too large

Or one can always run specialists ... probably won't be an issue this turnset, but I will look again at the overlap.

dV

Jon Shaw · Jun 20, 2007

I'm a little troubled by the idea of ending up taking on isabella and brennus on our own! I think we should consider joining forces with the americans.

One other item: now we're fighting on the big continent, we can manipulate the WW clcultor: if you fight battles on land that has your culture in majority, you dont get WW. therefore, if we let whoever we're attacking come into our lands on the continent (once H is gone and we have some culture in place), then we can counter atack them in ourown land for no WW.

Artillery are good for enemy SoDs. Just a thought, the time is some way off yet

da_Vinci · Jun 20, 2007

Prince da_Vinci sits up suddenly out of bed ... what a dream! A glorious assault on the City of Carthage with no losses, and an equally glorious defense of Hippo, also with no losses. His real life campaign should go so well.

He hears the noises of factory work outside, and goes to the window. There he sees a modern artillery under construction. But this city seems strangely unfamiliar. Then, in the sunrise on the horizon, Prince da_Vinci sees the Great Wall, the Taj Mahal, Chichen Itza, and the Hanging Gardens. This IS Carthage! It was not a dream!

Played 16 turns to complete a complex military operation culminating in the capture of the city of Carthage. We also just learned artillery.

See autolog (and upload log for turn 411) for the list of whips (it was a da_Vinci turnset, after all! :lol:

). Whipping got rid of red face issues for now, and I went 3 turns 0% sci to upgrade our most highly promoted rifles and grens to infantry and sent them to Carthage. Made 3 or so cannons and sent them as well.

Mehmed would not declare on Brennus. I did not want a third war with Brennus just now. Good news is Izzy broke free of Brennus and is a free state now.

I stopped the conversion of a lumbermill in Thapsus to a cottage ... I thought we needed the hammers there. I think I stopped one other tile conversion. Several factories will be done next turnset. In a few low hammer cities, I skipped factories for science buildings. I am really liking those harbors! :goodjob:

I recall C63 advising aganst them early in SGOTM 3 ... they do look pretty good at this stage in this game!

Military ops:

Killed G's navy on our west coast, as I needed unencumbered troop shipping. G does have clads now. Sent two, and later two more infantry (new ones) to Utica to join the hill troops in bringing scorched earth policy there. Pillaged hammers and food (can rebuild with one build) but saved the suburbs for our future use. Utica is down to 17 from 18, so H is feeling the pain! :evil:

Sent frigates to monitor the Washington battle ... he has lost Boston and Seattle. That located a Hannibal stack of a few art and a lot of Cav in that theatre ... they would come back our way.

Pillage the two hill windmills near Carthage, then set up the assualt. Then the art-cav stack appeared at Hippo. I hit it with a new cannon with double collat damage promotion, which delayed his attack long enough to dig in my infantry and promote the axe to a gren.

Turn 425 launched the attack on Carthage. One cannon killed an inf, another withdrew (attacks from the coast hill). Then one land inf and two amphib inf took out the last three inf in Carthage. Then I killed a nearby SAM inf.

H launched his attack on Hippo that turn as well. He lost 8 units to our none in that fiasco. I killed a weak cav that had withdrawn in T 426, and H lost a unit attacking Carthage. So a net 15-0 kill ratio in those two operations! :goodjob:

Overall I lost one inf and one clad the whole turnset.

Next I think we take Kerkouane. Might raze it as it overlaps both Carthage and Utica (Utica has Notre Dame, so keep that), and culture press from Olmec might be severe. On the other had, as we give cites to G, maybe every city matters, so we keep it?

Then maybe extort tech from H? I'd like to get railroads, for the extra hammer per mine and the defensive mobility. Might even get two rounds of extortion: take Utica next war, then extort once more (H built Thaenae west of Carthage).

Only issue is will H vassalize to someone else? Maybe just kill him now? Or leave him with just Thaenae and extort once? Or kill H outright and then we can gift to G? Might be best as time is running out.

Brennus does not have art, but wont trade with us (WFYABTA). Izzy will give us liberalism and mil trad for it ... I think we should take it as she is annoyed with Brennus. Then see what we can extort from H after we take Kerkouane And lets get this big empire teching! Oxford is done, so rebuiding the pop for the commerece (Turfan). Also, I know that Karakorum is a troop city, but don't neglect the towns as it also has big science multiples.

Hmm ... could we trade art for Izzy to declare on Brennus? Or would he just kill her?

I think we are back in the game! :goodjob:

dV

Spoiler :

da_Vinci · Jun 20, 2007

The upload log:

Spoiler :

Ronnie1 · Jun 20, 2007

I stopped the conversion of a lumbermill in Thapsus to a cottage ... I thought we needed the hammers there. I think I stopped one other tile conversion.

We must have had some workers set to automation. I didn't knowingly alter any previous improvements in the last turnset.

Nice going dV!

The Roster order is

da_Vinci - just played
Jon Shaw - UP NOW
Ronnie1 - on deck
g_storrow - skipped by request

Immaculate -in reserve until further notice
Conquistador 63 - in reserve until further notice, it's getting fun again!!!!

I'll have a look at the save later today and post some thoughts.

da_Vinci · Jun 20, 2007

Ronnie1 said:
Immaculate -in reserve until further notice
Conquistador 63 - in reserve until further notice, it's getting fun again!!!!

Yes ... can we tempt you back?

Good thing that no one else likes to whip the way I do ... the unhappiness has worn off by the time it gets back to me!

Which inspired the following:

The outlook wasn't brilliant for the Gypsy Kings that day:
Theyd lost their troops in Hippo, and with Hannibal on the way.
So when the troops limped to the coast and shipped of in retreat,
The people of Gypsalia feared their country had been beat.

Some subjects let out a groan of deep despair. The rest
Clung to that hope which springs eternal in the human breast;
They thought, if only Vinci could come and steer the ship -
We'd put up even money, now, with Vinci at the WHIP!

With apologies to Ernest Lawrence Thayer (author of Casey at the Bat) :lol:

dV

Jon Shaw · Jun 20, 2007

Great work dV, it is sounding very positive.

I'll capture Kerkouane and then see if Hannibal will give up rocketry- its the only thing he's got that we might be able to trade. Failing that I'll see if we can at least get a few older techs out of him. If we can't i'll just stay at war with him.

Who votes for keeping Kerouance and hwo votes for razing it? I vote for razing it, but will wait to see others' thoughts on this.

I will try to keep the other sides at war with each other as much as possible. If w can make it as easy as possible for us to expand on this continent, we can go full steam ahead with letting gandhi take our old continent.

I'm a bit worried H will become a vassal of someone else soon- that is one thing I hate about warlords- you rarely get a clean kill, they always go to some other player.

da_Vinci · Jun 20, 2007

Jon Shaw said:
Great work dV, it is sounding very positive.

I'll capture Kerkouane and then see if Hannibal will give up rocketry- its the only thing he's got that we might be able to trade. Failing that I'll see if we can at least get a few older techs out of him. If we can't i'll just stay at war with him.

What is your plan for trading with Izzy ... she will give us liberalism (free religion!) and mil trad (west point) and some cash for artillery. I think yes to that deal, as she is annoyed with Brennus, so let's strengthen his enemy.

Jon Shaw said:
Who votes for keeping Kerouance and hwo votes for razing it? I vote for razing it, but will wait to see others' thoughts on this.

I can go either way ... but if we are giving up our old cities rapidly, maybe we keep it? If we work specialists in Carthage (it has four wonders ... GP farm?), maybe the overlap is not such an issue? I will have to look more closely at this.

Jon Shaw said:
I will try to keep the other sides at war with each other as much as possible. If w can make it as easy as possible for us to expand on this continent, we can go full steam ahead with letting gandhi take our old continent.

Do we want to overrun Washington right away if we can? What is his navy like (destroyers?), and can we use our amphibious tactic?

Do we ultimately want to strenghten G and then have G war with Brennus? If a developed G and us war on Brennus, we could perhaps take him down.

Or do we strive to keep G and B at peace, and we pick away at B when we can?

Jon Shaw said:
I'm a bit worried H will become a vassal of someone else soon- that is one thing I hate about warlords- you rarely get a clean kill, they always go to some other player.

Yes, that could be a pain.

dV

Ronnie1 · Jun 20, 2007

Will H capitulate to us? I haven't had a chance to look at the save yet, will get to that in about an hour or so. I would make the deal with Izzy before any offers are entertained from H. Although, I don't believe off the top of my head that Mil Trad and Liberalism lead to any other techs, I'll check that out also.

I don't think drawing G into war with Brennus would do G any good. Why would we consider that? I feel like I'm missing something.

da_Vinci · Jun 20, 2007

Ronnie1 said:
Will H capitulate to us? I haven't had a chance to look at the save yet, will get to that in about an hour or so. I would make the deal with Izzy before any offers are entertained from H. Although, I don't believe off the top of my head that Mil Trad and Liberalism lead to any other techs, I'll check that out also.

Free religion from liberalism might be useful, and West Point from Mil Trad. That is all she is willing to give us when I checked. And does liberalism help us to emancipation? (That would be dV's least favorite civic :lol:

)

If we make H a vassal, is there still motherland yearning unhappiness in his cities that we own?

Ronnie1 said:
I don't think drawing G into war with Brennus would do G any good. Why would we consider that? I feel like I'm missing something.

It was one of those raw brainstorming ideas, unrefined. The idea was that maybe the only way to stop Brennus will be for G and us to go get him together (once we get G big). If we can contain Brennus on our own, then of course that is preferable.

Not something to do now by any means ... I should have specified this as one of those musings for the distant future (although the future is not so distant in this game anymore, is it?)

dV

Ronnie1 · Jun 20, 2007

I think we should keep the 2 bigger cities from H.

We need to see what else we can get from Izzy. She is offering 6036 beakers and 1060G up front. We already have a few turns invested Mil Trad and it is only 4 turns away if we have to do it ourselves. I would start with trying to get Railroad, then Biology and down from there. Basically, I do the math and try to get as many beakers as I can.

I think we should move the Ironclad away from G's Clams at Kolhapur so he can use them.

I think we should Mine the Uranium in the south as our only source, and to provide a few hammers for the city, it will still provide some commerce as well.

I think we need to try and use the tiles west of Karakorum for that city, freeing up the eastern floodplain towns for Turfan.

I see Brennus has Tanks, so we either need Gunships or Mech Infantry next.

I am comfortable giving up Ferrous, Cibola , and OZ at any point now!

Those are my thoughts right now.

da_Vinci · Jun 21, 2007

Ronnie1 said:
I think we should keep the 2 bigger cities from H.

Just to be clear, you mean keep both Kerkouane and Utica, each with pop 18? I agree with that. On review, Carthage has pop 14 and 14 workable tiles that do not overlap Kerkouane, many are farms, two are seafood allowing a specialist center there, which is perfect for the 4 wonders in the city. Which solves the tile overlap problem in Kerkouane.

Kerkouane already has a bank, courthouse, conf monastery, observatory, library that I can identify in the city, so that is a lot of infrasturcture to give up if we raze it. Those two big cities will replace OZ and Cibola. If we keep the pop big in at least one, and then give up Nidaros, will the palace automatically rebuild on the new continent in the largest pop city? Maybe the give up order should be Ferrous, Nidaros, then OZ and Cibola?

Only because we may need whipping to adjust pop to put palace where we want it, so maybe that needs to be sooner rather than later, since we may need emancipation in the future.

Ronnie1 said:
We need to see what else we can get from Izzy. She is offering 6036 beakers and 1060G up front. We already have a few turns invested Mil Trad and it is only 4 turns away if we have to do it ourselves. I would start with trying to get Railroad, then Biology and down from there. Basically, I do the math and try to get as many beakers as I can.

We are making an estimated 720 BPT now at 60%, 840 at 70%. Free religion would add 10% and a bunch of happiness ... so don't sell liberalism short. If we wait to trade later, if Izzy is researching art herself, won't she offer less the closer she gets to it herself? Or get it from someone else? I think we strike while the iron is hot on this trade, or we might lose the chance altogether?

She won't trade rail or elec (2000 or so more beakers than art), will trade bio (8073) or democracy (6279) or the lib MT cash combo.

At 60% sci, cash is +63. At 70%, it is -18. So 10% more sci costs 81 per turn. The 1060 gold funds 13 turns of the extra 10% which is 120 more BPT, or 1570 extra beakers from the cash. And after Free rel, add 10% again, so the 1570 becomes 1720. So the trade is 6036 + 1720 beakers = 7756, almost as good as the 8073 of biology. And that does not count the 10% boost to science in all cities, an extra 72 or 84 BPT (60 or 70 sci rate), and the happiness from Free Religion. So I think the lib MT cash combo is the better deal for us (don't see bio as that high a prioriy for us).

Ronnie1 said:
I think we should move the Ironclad away from G's Clams at Kolhapur so he can use them.

Good point, I didn't think of that.

Ronnie1 said:
I think we should Mine the Uranium in the south as our only source, and to provide a few hammers for the city, it will still provide some commerce as well.

Agree here also.

Ronnie1 said:
I think we need to try and use the tiles west of Karakorum for that city, freeing up the eastern floodplain towns for Turfan.

Yes, a third thing that I missed! :blush:

I assume you would keep the east horse in Karak for the hammers (troop center)?

Ronnie1 said:
I see Brennus has Tanks, so we either need Gunships or Mech Infantry next.

Gunships are four techs away (rail, commbust, flight, rocket), Mech inf is 8 techs away. Our own tanks are only two techs away, so I suggest we go that route.

I have successfully used tanks + art to take on Mech Inf, so I'm happy to go tank vs tank. After we get tanks we will need SAM inf because enemy gunships will be coming next. In modern warfare, the right combined arms is even more important that in ancient warfare, IMHO.

Ronnie1 said:
I am comfortable giving up Ferrous, Cibola , and OZ at any point now!

We are just about to finish factory in Ferrous, so maybe get a few inf out of it before we give it away? Also, lets give one away first and see what we learn from that ... for example, will G have cultural problems, and do we need to pre-build culture buildings (by whipping perhaps) before the giveaway? I think we want to whip to low pop before the giveaways, so less disorder time for G (and maybe less motherland yearning issues?). Maybe we start with OZ? Whip the grocer in 1 turn, then make the temple, then retreat to give it up?

On second thought, OZ is only 250 away from either a GE or GS ... maybe spam specialists there to complete that before the giveaway? In which case maybe we hand over Ferrous first (after a few infantry from it)?

If we get free religion, then religion spread is a way to add happiness. We have Bud, Jud and Conf monasteries (but just one conf in cibola, so a good reason to keep Kerkouane which also has one) as souces of missionaries to put all three religions in all cities if needed.

Maybe we should take out H ASAP and then see if we can take LA, Atlanta and Washington? That would make a nice empire on the new continent, allowing faster gifting to G. Or do we want to keep W alive and fight Brennus with him? Depends on whether we think we can catch up in tech or not. This is a pretty key strategic decision that needs to be made now.

H has capitulation in white ... how does that affect motherland yearning? It adds maint to us IIRC, but also adds happiness ... are we better off just to conquer him?

Another reason to get the cash from Izzy is we can upgrade the cannons to art for a faster kill of Hannibal.

I think Thapsus is making a university (I never took it out of the queue), maybe making infantry is its best use.

We have six workers in Ning-Hsia waiting to ship to Carthage to rebuild what I pillaged after we own it.

dV

Jon Shaw · Jun 21, 2007

A few points:

The 10% sci boost from free religion: is this additive rather than multiplacative (if thats a word) like most bonuses? If so, we would not get an effective 10% bost from science. Please note I am still very much in favour of free religion though- hapiness plus some sci boost with no downside: can't complain!

If H capitulates to us, I fear we might get culture flipping, though I dunno if that's something that can happen to vassal states. One "trick" I've tried with vassal states (would the americans become our vassal yet?) is that you can engineer them to be in the front line in future wars. If H and Wash were vassals to us and we declared on brennus, he would have tp attack through them. Great for mopping up his loose troops while our army waits in the wings for the counter attack. Aslo, we could be fightin outside our territory (in Wash's), but not getting WW penalties cos he's our vassal. We also see all the land (and so enemy troops movements), and don't have to worry about our terrain improvements being destroyed and cities starved or captured.

It is a somewhat machiavellian plan, but it really does work (I've used it on inland sea maps to great effect; there agin you have essentially one long land mass and capitulated vassals end up in the firing line of the next civ along).

<evil laugh>

da_Vinci · Jun 21, 2007

Jon Shaw said:
A few points:

The 10% sci boost from free religion: is this additive rather than multiplacative (if thats a word) like most bonuses? If so, we would not get an effective 10% bost from science. Please note I am still very much in favour of free religion though- hapiness plus some sci boost with no downside: can't complain!

Good point. I assume it must be 10% of the base science, not 10% of the net science. If we assume that our base is perhaps half of our net, then maybe we gain 5% of the net from the 10% of the base? So I have probably overestimated the Free Religion benefit by a factor of 2 or so.

Still, given permanent war, not sure that Bio is that useful, unless we use the food to run specialists?

Jon Shaw said:
If H capitulates to us, I fear we might get culture flipping, though I dunno if that's something that can happen to vassal states. One "trick" I've tried with vassal states (would the americans become our vassal yet?) is that you can engineer them to be in the front line in future wars. If H and Wash were vassals to us and we declared on brennus, he would have tp attack through them. Great for mopping up his loose troops while our army waits in the wings for the counter attack. Aslo, we could be fightin outside our territory (in Wash's), but not getting WW penalties cos he's our vassal. We also see all the land (and so enemy troops movements), and don't have to worry about our terrain improvements being destroyed and cities starved or captured.

It is a somewhat machiavellian plan, but it really does work (I've used it on inland sea maps to great effect; there agin you have essentially one long land mass and capitulated vassals end up in the firing line of the next civ along).

<evil laugh>

That is what the Warsaw Pact was for, wasn't it? :lol:

I have never taken on a vassal in my limited warlords career (limited to WOTM 5 - 10, and this game). I think I would want both of H's big cities (and keep them) before we take him on as a vassal. He can keep Thaenae (not a culture problem I would assume!). If we vassalize him while he still has Utica and Kerkouane, I agree that we might face big cultureal pressure in Carthage.

How does vassalization affect motherland yearning in, say, Hippo and Carthage?

I might agree with vassalizing Washington, but we would need to take some of his cities before he would agree to that, don't you think? In which case maybe he is too small to be a useful vassal?

On the other hand, If vassalizing Washington is a way to have a more advanced army on the frontier (we are behind in tech), maybe that is a good thing regardless of his size.

If we vassalize him, do we learn his techs? Would be nice, but I don't think that is the case.

dV

SGOTM 04 - Gypsy Kings

Gypsy Prince

Prince

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Prince

Gypsy Prince

Gypsy Prince

Prince

Gypsy Prince

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Prince

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Deity

Gypsy Prince

Prince

Gypsy Prince

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