SGOTM 07 - iWarbadly (Mac)

dr_s · May 18, 2008

I agree that we should not trade Alpha now under any circumstances, but not for the reasons Peter outlines (though they're valid), but because we need to make sure that we're first to Literature and the Great Library. Whatever :science:

we could get now for Alpha will be dwarfed by the :science:

we will get from the GL directly and from the GPP it generates.

I think we should beeline the GL ASAP. That means teching Myst next, trading writing for Poly if at all possible, then teching Literature. Also, once the silver is hooked up, our next worker action has to be hooking up the marble.

I'm not worried about not getting anything for Alpha. I bet that we'll still have a monopoly on Alpha even after we've gotten to Literature and are working on the GL. We'll be able to trade it around then, no problem. Even if we don't have a monopoly, the first AI to self-research it won't immediately trade it around. We definitely shouldn't trade Alpha until the GL is well in hand. The only way we can miss out on the GL at this point is by trading Alpha.

Oh, we're three turns from our first GP. It looks like it will be an engineer, in which case we should settle him. If we get lucky and it's a GS, we should build an academy. Building an academy will give us an extra 15 :science:

per turn.

mikeyredk · May 18, 2008

Will play on Tuesday

lazarillo · May 19, 2008

I will look Tues (tomorrow) or Wed morning for the most recent save. Just wanted to chime in since I was flaky last time.

mikeyredk · May 20, 2008

Save

Spoiler :

Silver finished, road finished thats about it. Asoka and elizabeth know alphabet. We can trade Poly around to fredrick or alexander for either Meditation, priesthood or archery did not make the trade since i got it in my last turn so after we discuss the next person can do the durty work

BTW whale is plentiful and there is another marble to the east of washington beyond the mountains and elizabeth doesn't know fredrick yet

dr_s · May 20, 2008

I'm surprised we don't have a monopoly on Alpha. That's too bad. Since we don't, maybe we should trade.

We can get IW + Med + Priesthood from Alex for Alpha + Poly and Math + Sailing from Fred for the same. Worth it?

We should finish the marble then chop the riverside hill for the Great Library. Once we have marble hooked up we'll know who else has marble. But we're industrious, so I think we should still be able to get the GL.

dojoboy · May 20, 2008

I had a bad feeling about the Alphabet-monopoly idea. We should definitely get what we can for it ASAP.

Order of Play:

dr_s - on deck
peter grimes - warming up
dojoboy
mikeyredk
lazarillo - Up

mikeyredk · May 20, 2008

Frederick offers meditation, priesthood, sailing, archery. We can also get math and sailing(archery); IW, archery, sailing;

Washington is less generous giving mono and sailing; IW, archery; or he can give us math straight up

Capac if you just ask he will give us meditation, priesthood and sailing push him and you get IW and archery(meditation)

Alexander we get Priesthood, archery, IW if you push him for both poly and alpha

The combos are important; also note we don't get the tech ahead of these so if we do trade for priesthood we can't get monarchy the same goes for the others

On another note we should change the agreement with asoka to grab his incense right now before we get anywhere near the cathedrals

+1 happiness and we don't have to build a forge but we should for the +1 from silver

dr_s · May 21, 2008

We don't need to worry about happiness, so trading for incense isn't necessary. Once we get Lit, we can tech Drama and build a theater + Globe Theater, then we will have unlimited happiness for the entire game. So if we build a forge, we should do it for the hammers, not the happiness. I'm not convinced it's worth the extra unhealthiness, though.

As for trades, we should trade for the things we need right now. Sailing to build a lighthouse. Math to increase hammers from chops. Meditation to open up a Philosophy lightbulb. Priesthood to open up the path to COL. IW for extra hammers if we have iron. We shouldn't trade for cheap useless techs like archery because they count against the trade limits and will lead to WFYABTA down the road. Fred's the only one who will give us Math, so we should do Math+Sailing from him, and take the other techs from Alex. Once we have these, we can see who will trade follow-on techs (if anyone will).

The worker should hook up marble ASAP. We should whip a building into the great library when Literature comes in. If we trade for Sailing, we could almost complete a lighthouse and then whip it for one pop so that the overflow goes into the GL. Because we'll have marble and we're industrious, our overflow hammers get increases 150%. Same for the chop. Once we have marble hooked up and if we trade for Math, each chop will be worth 75 hammers.

dojoboy · May 21, 2008

dr_s said:
We don't need to worry about happiness, so trading for incense isn't necessary. Once we get Lit, we can tech Drama and build a theater + Globe Theater, then we will have unlimited happiness for the entire game. So if we build a forge, we should do it for the hammers, not the happiness. I'm not convinced it's worth the extra unhealthiness, though.

As for trades, we should trade for the things we need right now. Sailing to build a lighthouse. Math to increase hammers from chops. Meditation to open up a Philosophy lightbulb. Priesthood to open up the path to COL. IW for extra hammers if we have iron. We shouldn't trade for cheap useless techs like archery because they count against the trade limits and will lead to WFYABTA down the road. Fred's the only one who will give us Math, so we should do Math+Sailing from him, and take the other techs from Alex. Once we have these, we can see who will trade follow-on techs (if anyone will).

The worker should hook up marble ASAP. We should whip a building into the great library when Literature comes in. If we trade for Sailing, we could almost complete a lighthouse and then whip it for one pop so that the overflow goes into the GL. Because we'll have marble and we're industrious, our overflow hammers get increases 150%. Same for the chop. Once we have marble hooked up and if we trade for Math, each chop will be worth 75 hammers.

Sounds good. Btw, what is WFYABTA?

dr_s · May 21, 2008

"We fear you are becoming too advanced." Each AI keeps track of how many techs you receive in trade. Each AI also has a limit---when it sees you have received more techs than its limit, it won't trade with you; the message it gives in the trade screen is WFYABTA.

There are some exceptions, I'm not sure what they all are. I think Friendly AIs will ignore the limit. If both you and the AI in question are in the bottom half of the scoreboard, the AI also ignores the limit. There might be other exceptions. (If you search for WFYABTA, there are lots of threads that discuss this.) But if you notice in the latter half of your games that lots of AIs that are pleased or cautious with you won't trade anything, it's usually because of this.

AIs forget things over time, but it can take a while for this to wear off.

lazarillo · May 21, 2008

OK, so I will summarize what I read above & take action:

o trade techs to get: (1) Math & Sailing from Fred, (2) IW & Med & Priest from Alex, (3) whatever else further along the tech trade list if any remaining.

o finish hooking up marble. Once done, start chopping the riverside hill-forest square. (Ideally once we have math. And ensure it is finished once we are working on GL, yes??)

o build lighthouse & when it is nearly complete, whip it to sacrifice pop for hammers into GL.
- How do I ensure I am putting the most hammers into the GL? Can I assume that it is best to wait until it is nearly done, then whip? This will only whip 1 person, but guarantees max. I dunno how to guess when a 2 pop whip is near changing to a 1 person whip.

lazarillo · May 21, 2008

Oh, and don't focus too much on happiness because of global theatre.

dr_s · May 21, 2008

lazarillo said:
- How do I ensure I am putting the most hammers into the GL? Can I assume that it is best to wait until it is nearly done, then whip? This will only whip 1 person, but guarantees max. I dunno how to guess when a 2 pop whip is near changing to a 1 person whip.

I wouldn't recommend delaying too long if it delays the final completion of the GL. Our goal should be to minimize number of turns to completion, not necessarily to maximize the number of hammers.

Each whip produces 30 hammers before modifiers. Potential modifiers include things like stone, marble, a forge, Org. Rel., being expansive or spiritual or industrious, or whatever. The modifiers can be different for different buildings, of course. For us, for a lighthouse or a unit like an axeman, I don't think we currently have any modifiers. So if we want to whip for two pop, I think the best time to whip a lighthouse would be when it is exactly 31 hammers from completion. That would produce 60 hammers. 31 would go into the lighthouse, 29 into overflow. Those 29 would benefit from the modifiers for the GL,+100% for marble and +50% for industrious, so they would become 29 x 2.5 = 72 hammers.

Of course, timing things perfectly so that you get the maximum benefit for the minimum cost (in terms of pop and unhappiness) is difficult. In my regular games I often goof up and forget I have a forge or am in Org. Rel., so I miss the switch from 2 pop to 1 pop. (Or I forget to check the city on the right turn.)

In any case, I'm not sure it's worth it for us to try to whip 2 pop. If we're far enough under our current happiness cap, we don't really gain anything by saving on unhappiness. In that case it's probably better to only whip one pop, keeping the other pop around to work a good tile. We could then get the same overflow as above by whipping when there's just one hammer to go in the lighthouse. But if the timing doesn't work out simply it's not worth worrying about getting it exactly right.

If we have math, the chop will give us 75 hammers after modifiers (30x2.5). The cost of the GL is 350 hammers, so between the chop and the whip we get almost half the hammers we need. Of course we should also work maximum hammer tiles. If we can get 11 hammers per turn, that would mean we should finish the GL in about 7 turns.

Oh, this is probably one situation where we should just build a mine on the forest hill rather than chop first, then build the mine. Often you want to separate the two to get the hammers from the chop faster, but assuming we can finish the mine before the GL finishes, doing the chop+mine in a single go means we won't have a few turns with just a bare hill.

lazarillo · May 21, 2008

All,

I have finished my turn, so now Dr S is up.

Here is the link:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm7/iWarbadly_SG007_BC0900_01.Civ4SavedGame

Details:

o I started recording all trivialities, like great people born in other countries, but then skipped because there was a lot of stuff & it is all in the "notes". But here are some important highlights that other folks did:
- Asoka built the Hanging Gardens
- Asoka ALSO already had literature by the time I got it (see below). Ack! GL might be tough!
- Huayna Capac demanded that I cancel deals with America -- I refused

OK, onto my actions:
o I traded IW + Med + Priest for Alpha + Poly with Alex, just as group decided
o I traded Math + Sail for Alpha + Poly with Fred, just as group suggested
o I also traded Monotheism + Archery for Alpha with Washington. (I thought Mono would be important, and Archery was a freebie along with it.)
- I did NOT change to organized religion since we don't yet have Judaism (or whatever, but Judaism is most likely) and I didn't want to lose a turn of $$.
o I placed a quarry on the marble.
o I opened borders with Frederick & Alexander. I saw no harm in it (not like our territory is so secret) & it helps our trade + our ability to wander.
o I sent the one soldier & the workboat wandering around further.
o I started the lighthouse. It is nearly done & will be able to whip with good timing in 1 turn.
o I placed worker on riverside hill for chop, but didn't have chance to chop yet.
o After completing literature, I chose Drama.
- I could not trade literature for anything. I wasn't going to anyway, but it is perhaps a sign that no one thinks it is worth much??

Next steps that I know for sure:
o sacrifice pop for lighthouse, switch to GL. (Marble quarry already in place.)
o begin chop on riverside hill & then on next riverside hill.

I wanted to paste a screen capture, but it seems there is no easy way to paste an image without putting it in its own url.

Lazarillo

mikeyredk · May 21, 2008

Use the starve method that i employed earlier to the GL we can cut down construction time from 9 turns without scientist to 7 turns not including doing any chops or any integration of whipping.

For techs after drama dont go for music go after Metal casting and machinery those will bring us lots of techs also compass for harbors for health

dr_s · May 21, 2008

Looking at the save now.

Wow, Bombay is a monster production city with mega culture. It's the holy city for Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism and Taoism. That means that Asoka already has Philosophy

.

We can complete the GL in 6 turns without whipping or chopping if we turn off all scientists and starve at -4 :food:

. In that configuration we are producing 24 base :hammers:

for 60

per turn after modifiers. If I whipped the lighthouse right now we would produce 24 overflow :hammers:

, so that's exactly one turn of production. But we lose one pop which moves us down to 52 :hammers:

per turn in starvation mode. Doesn't seem worth it to whip after all.

Our worker is not actually on a riverside hill, so if we wanted to chop the riverside hill, it would be four turns before the chop completed; one to move and three to chop. The chop would produce 75 :hammers:

and cut the build to five turns from six. Is that worth it, or should we save the trees for something else, like the Globe Theater, the National Epic, or ???

Asoka doesn't have marble, isn't industrious, so can't produce more than 20-30 (max) :hammers:

per turn. Even with a potential two turn headstart and chopping the one forest near Bombay, he can't beat us, I don't think. So I think we're safe without whipping and chopping, at least with respect to the civs we have met so far. My inclination would be to go with mike's suggestion and just starve, not whip or chop. If I don't chop, I'll probably hook up the iron that has appeared (not in our BFC, unfortunately).

As for techs, should we tech drama next? That's reasonable, I think. We also should prioritize COL for Caste System and CS for Bureaucracy. Asoka is the only one we know right now with COL.

We will pop our borders in 3 turns and start applying cultural pressure to Nottingham and New York.

I can see Isabella's borders down in the SE, though we haven't officially met her yet. Wonder if she founded Hinduism. That would be interesting.

I'll probably play tomorrow evening, so give me some ideas and feedback in the next 24 hours. If it's alright, I'll play through one tech, so that will be about 10 turns or so. After building the GL, we can build an aqueduct or more units or ... ?

peter grimes · May 22, 2008

Plan looks good.

If we're less than a third or so below the AIs on the power graph, I'd say a unit or two after the GLib. But otherwise an aqueduct would be good. We can build the National Epic, right? That would also be good to get going soon.

You know, we could always start a unit, then leave it unfinished until we're in better civics for xp. I usually only do that when I'm spiritual, but in a OCC you need every advantage you can get! :hmm:

dr_s · May 22, 2008

Good point about the NE---forgot about that!

Played my turnset. Save here.

I ended up getting paranoid and chopped one forest for the Great Library. In the end, I didn't see a reason not to. I put the overflow from the GL into the NE. I goofed a bit; I should have immediately finished the lighthouse after one turn of :hammers:

into the NE to increase our food supply, but I forgot for a few turns.

Asoka sent a missionary our way and spread Judaism to us. I haven't converted yet---I figured we should discuss first.

Met Isabella, Caesar, Kublai Khan. Khan and Caesar are at war. On my last turn Khan asked me to join him; I declined. Opened borders with Isabella since everyone likes her. Didn't OB with either Caesar or Khan---don't want to pick sides. As a result, our WB can't progress any further.

Finished drama. Built a mine on the hill that I chopped. We still have a few turns left to finish the NE. We are growing and only working improved tiles. We are running one scientist in addition to the two free scientists from the GL.

Autolog below:

Spoiler :

peter grimes · May 22, 2008

I'm looking at the save here...

I don't think we should convert to Judaism quite yet. Washington is Buddhist, and he's right on our borders. We should wait until Civil Service comes in, then revolt to Bureaucracy and Organized Religion, send a couple of Missionaries to Washington, and get him to convert.

Or we could build a monastery - the +10% :science:

could be handy.

Why do we only have one GS from the GL?? Is that a factor of the map size? :hmm:

It doesn't seem that any whipping would be helpful, and other than managing the AIs demands, this will likely be a quiet turnset.

I'm tempted to play through the completion of Civil Service (that's what the next research goal is, right?

What are the tech trades we should shoot for? Attached is a copy of the foreign adviser's tech screen
[img=http://xs227.xs.to/xs227/08215/picture_1243.png]
[img=http://xs227.xs.to/xs227/08215/picture_2642.png]

mikeyredk · May 22, 2008

I say we get the great library situation resolved before we continue I think thats a bug…

While COL is great and so is bureaucracy. I think we should go with the south tech path… with metal castings and machinery so we can eliminate the undesirables… such as asoka and elizabeth we cannot PA them there too darn close to us. Also washington has to be offed…

We should whip the NE if we do whip it we gain 4 turns of GP points equating 13*4 points at current levels that is worth 4 population and we get our Great person 4 turns sooner

SGOTM 07 - iWarbadly (Mac)

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...

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