SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[MacBalt]

Okay, my head still hurts, but I found an interesting article for those of us who remain "corporation challenged."

You can find the whole article in the War Academy or here: The Power of Sushi

Here is another one from the War Academy that looks good, but which makes my head hurt too much to tackle right now : Corporate Maintenance Explained

You'll find an interesting excerpt from the Sushi article under the spoiler tag below. I think the bottom line is that even under the best conditions corporations don't make money (except perhaps by spreading them in foreign civs). Instead, they are a mechanism for converting gold into other resources. One of the most powerful of these conversions is Sushi's gold to food conversion, but if we want to make use of it, we'll need to be able to put the extra food to very good use in a very limited number of turns. The food for extra specialists argument sounds great, but, like WT, I'm worried about the happy cap/war weariness problem that could put a low ceiling on any "food from Sushi" benefit and the reduced research rate problem that is sure to come from switching out of State Property and the maintenance costs associated with corporation branches (not to mention the gold it costs to establish new branches). I'm not saying I understand this well enough to be certain, but so far I think that jumping to a new civic to try to wring a rather uncertain (and complicated) benefit out of Sushi and Mining in a few cities for maybe 10-20 turns is taking a lot of risk to try for a rather uncertain (and complicated) benefit. I'm leaning toward sticking with State Property.

The idea of making money by spreading weak corporations to foreign civs is an intriguing one though. We don't have time, but it might be fun to try in another game sometime.

WT, do you think these articles are reliable? Ever since you caught the issues in that OCC article from the last SG, I don't trust the War Academy so much anymore.

Excerpt from Sushi Article:

Spoiler :

Domestic Corporation Spread

First we need to get one point clear: Domestic corporation spread does not make money. With a lot of fine tuning you might scrape up a few gold per turn overall, but only by crippling the corporation by starving it of resources, or by restricting it to small cities. Domestic corporation spread is a tool for converting gold into something more useful; food, production, culture, science or some combination of these.

Now there already exist tools for three of these conversions:
to is available with hurry production.
to is available through the culture slider.
to is available through deficit research.

Now, depending on conditions, corporations can provide better conversion rates than the existing mechanisms, and the existing mechanisms may not always be available. However the to conversion is unique to corporations, and is easily the most powerful ability. This article will therefore focus on one of the food generating corporations; Sid's Sushi.

Now the common complaint is that the expense is simply too high for the quantity of food given, but as I will show this is not the case. I'll draw on an example from the last game I played. Thanks to a lot of trading, I had enough resources for each Sid’s Sushi branch to be producing 20 food per turn, and a load of culture which for simplicity I’ll ignore. Depending on city size, it was costing between 15 (in a size 1 city) and 60gpt (In a size 40+ city). For a fairly standard late game city at size 25, each branch was costing about 35gpt overall (with near maximum inflation).

Now comparing the value of food to gold is a little tricky, since aside from corporation, there's only the old reverse conversion tool; merchants. 20 food per turn is 10 merchants, and hence 30gpt, so we seem to be struggling to break even. However, that is 30gpt pre-modifiers. With banks and so on, this can be pushed up to 60gpt, a clear 25gpt per branch profit.


Fact is though, converting gold to gold by using a corporation to get extra food to run merchants doesn't give the best possible rate. It just gives the easiest comparison to illustrate you are coming out ahead. Consider some of the other possibilities; 10 extra specialists in your GP farm translates to a very nice boost in GPP. What about a commerce city that needs a mixture of farms and cottages to work all the tiles? Suppose I haven’t been so lucky on resources, and I’ve only got 16. 8 extra food still means 8 plains tiles cottageable without needing balancing farms. I can rip out 4 farms and replace them with cottages - looking at a boost of 28 commerce, and hence at least 56 gold's worth. A very clear profit, especially as maintenance costs would be much lower with fewer resources (even if the corporation is foreign, which ideally won’t be the case).

Now one thing you need to be careful about is just spamming corporations everywhere. The AI may do it, but it's not always a good idea. In earlier patches, spamming corporations to your own cities was economic suicide. With the reduced costs of patch 3.13, this isn’t really the case. I would still advise against indiscriminate spam if you’re running Environmentalism though, and I’d be wary of spreading foreign corporations in your own territory. A city that's using 20 cottages and just breaking even on food might not gain that much by throwing a few specialists on the top (at least in a CE). Pick your specialist cities, your high production cities (it's always worth slinging in a few extra engineers or priests), cities without food resources, or surrounded by hilly terrain which are stuck with tiles unused if you’re running environmentalism. Any city which is newly founded, or has been reduced to a husk by warfare will also benefit greatly from corporations. Nothing gives quite as spectacular growth as dropping Sushi and Mining into a size 1 city to give an extra 20 food and production per turn.

The final point which makes domestic corporation spread so useful, is that if you are running 100% science (or some combination of science, espionage and culture that comes to 100%) and still making a profit, you have are building up gold reserves which are of minimal use. Hurry production is fine, but you're stuck with universal sufferage (and the conversion rate is much poorer than Mining Inc). Deficit research however can no longer convert this surplus gold into research - you've hit a hard limit on your research speed. Corporations provide a way to convert that surplus gold back into science, and push your research speed still higher. You can do this directly using Standard Ethanol, or indirectly with Sushi to run scientists.

Now it would be a valid point that in vanilla and Warlords, running at 100% science and turning a profit, while possible, was relatively unusual. This is no longer the case in BtS, thanks to the other facet of corporation use; foreign corporation spread,

Foreign Corporation Spread

The maths of spreading a corporation you own to foreign cities is far simpler. You get 12gpt from the HQ. The AI pays maintenance, and may or may not get a lot of benefit from resources. Here you can spam the corporation like a religion - the maintenance costs aren't your problem, and every extra city gives you a tidy amount of cash. Prior to 3.13, corporations would act like a weapon, draining the AI economy to feed your own. With the lower maintenance costs of 3.13, this is no longer really the case. Generally the AI will get some net benefit from foreign corporations unless under Environmentalism, so the trick is to give them the weaker corporations, and starve them of resources. You get the same 12gpt, regardless of how many resources the AI has, so you may a well minimise their benefit. Try to spam to the weaker AIs, or your allies, who it either doesn’t matter, or is desirable to strengthen. It is trivially easy to push your Wall Street city up to producing 1500+ gold from foreign corporate branches alone, and so more than pay your domestic corporation expenses.

 

[WastinTime]

I used the Corp Maint. Explained article you linked to for the numbers in my post and I double checked their accuracy. So I do trust that article. I've also read some of the Sushi article in the past and think it's also accurate, but I haven't studied it in detail.

Your post reflects exactly my feelings on corporations. Well said.

As for the plan to get GMen. I was thinking we'd try Caste after CristoR came in. We may have too much unhappy from Emancip. for this to work, but probably not. Worth a try for 1 turn and we can always switch back. We're a little late on the caste switch, but it still looks like Ulundi and Engineering can pop a GMan out in around 12 turns. That means we might even squeeze a 3rd one out. If caste works out, I'm sure we can. We should probably try to rush one out before the one in Engineering if possible. Even delay the Engineer until the end since it will be used with the other GE to get started on 3GD. Realize that 3GD will still take a turn or 2 to finish after rushing with 2 GEs. I think 820 hammers per GE...so 1640...and 3GD is more than that IIRC.

 

[WastinTime]

A few details we've overlooked in the corp discussion.

Merc means no foreign trade routes too.

No SP means starvation in the workshop cities.

No SP means -10% hammers in all cities.

Caste gives a nice boost to our workshop cities (1 hammer/wrkshop)

If we vassal HRE and trade for gems. That should be enough happy to handle caste. We could probably handle it anyway, but those are 2 nice happy boosters.

 

[BLubmuz]

PC restored, all the programs for work installed.
Tomorrow i'll probably finish the bigger job, meaning Civ will be up and running.

I agree with WT: without SP we probably loose some specialist, mainly in Engineering and in the other "workshopped" cities.

The greater income of trade routes will largerly compensate the beakers from the free specialists in Merc.
Not to mention the huge distant-from-palace costs, even with FP and Versailles.
Also Corps will have no effects in SP, but also they costs nothing.

So, we'll found the Corps HQs only to gain the Wonder points.

WT, please specify: 22 or 30 turns?
If we can plan (and actually manage) to finish in 22 turns from now, better go for Rocketry: a GS is enough for a wonder, and we don't need more GPs.

To be honest, i'll try to finish faster than in 22 turns, say when we'll hit Rocketry.
Railroads before Fascism to speed the troops to the front, Fascism to build MtR.

 

[WastinTime]

We have a GS.

If we get another, we go for both Rocketry and Plastics...end in 30 turns.

If we don't get a GS next, we need go to either Rocketry or Plastics, but not both.
This is why we need to delay Industrialism as long as possible. Once we research that, it's too late to go for Rocketry. The path to Plastics is on.

Option A: Rocketry
This is a shorter tech path, we skip Industrial and Plastics....end in 18 turns..or19?

Option B: Plastics
Tech path is slightly longer...end in 22 turns. (skipping Art/Rocket)

We need the 2nd GE, but should get it...meaning we can use 2 GE on 3GD.
That makes Plastics a better target than Rocketry because we get an extra wonder (3GD) in only 3-4 extra turns.

It also gives us a bit more room to finish conquest with these extra turns.

Given we failed to pop a GS next, we can still try for a GS as our 3rd Gman. If we can pop it before we finish Plastics and the 3GD, then we can go on to Rocketry and we're back to a 30 turn finish.

Did that all make sense?

 

[Sweetacshon]

Yep, the tech plan sounds fine (although the idea about doing fascism first is also good- I could go either), as does the GP rush. Corps/SP... I'm still undecided, to tell the truth. I think corps would work nicely, but am unsure about the short amount of time left and the risk of leaving the trail that seems straight forward. That is probably a conservative view, but I'm not sure we should experimenting (well, I'D be experimenting) at this stage, considering all the elements that have to gel for us to win well. I suppose I'm just not feeling adventurous.

I would be interested to come back to this point and try the other route and compare finishes after the game, for sure.

 

[BLubmuz]

We have a GS.
(...)
Given we failed to pop a GS next, we can still try for a GS as our 3rd Gman. If we can pop it before we finish Plastics and the 3GD, then we can go on to Rocketry and we're back to a 30 turn finish.

Did that all make sense?

No!
We already have a GS and we can use him for Aluminum Co.
Railroad - Mining = GE due in 4 turns, start turn 247, now turn 250
Fascism - mount Rushmore 1+3
Combustion -(forget) = GE 3
Refrigeration - (Cereals?) = GM 4
Artillery - Rocketry (Aluminum) = GS 7-8

Thus we need 19 turns from now for Aluminum, more if we go for Plastics instead, even more to build the 3GD.

I can't post a PPP yet, i need to open the save, but: if we think our conquest will be done in 20 turns from now, this is the best choice.

I can add that, since we don't need more GPs, we can switch to FR and gain a 10% research, to shorten those 20 turns to 18.
The war is the bottleneck, now!!!

Probably this game will be won on the 2nd or even 3rd decimal, counting the turns/wonders rate. 1-2 turns can be enough to win or not a medal.

I took a look at the graphs and i can bet OSS is trying a cultural win.
It's close to impossible they can own all the wonders we own, but they can finish before us.
Not much to say about the others... some high mid-game score seem to match ours later.
Surely we're high on power, but CRC is ramping vertical... but 2 factors will determine the winner this time, i hope we're on the right path.
Anyway, we must do our best to optimize our game, now it's too late for regrets and complaints.

 

[WastinTime]

We could get a better score by going 22 turns to plastics, use the GS there and build 3GD.

If we get the 2nd GS, 30 turns to plastics, then rocketry is also better if that 3rd Gman is a prophet, then we get the shrine too.

However, If you're tell me we can conquer in ~16 turns, then the Rocketry plan is probably best. No gambling on Gmen. And we can spark up a golden age to finish in 16-17.

We need to stay in Pacifism I think. At least until the next Gman is out. We might even be able to get a 4th Gman if we starve a city properly.

The point is we need a real plan for the next TS, not just a war plan. Don't expect to post a plan draft and play in 24-48 hours. All hospitals/wonders, etc need to be planned. All Gmen cities identified. I'm sure we'll go for Caste as a minimum civic change. That means a ton of specialist management.

The team keeps mentioning Railroad before Fascism. I'm OK with that, but I don't like the reasoning. I keep seeing "Mining Inc" mentioned. That's not the reason to go to railroad. It's to build railroads. And I've also heard railroads mentioned as a means to transport troops. This is also not the primary reason. First, we'd want to get rails on our mines for the hammers (and lumbermills, but we shouldn't have any of those). Then connect the rails in a minimal pattern. Not railroads to nowhere like our roads tended to be. I still vote for Facsism first. It's only 2 turns. Don't we get a free general for that? I wish generals could be used for golden ages.

Our end game choice can wait a few turns. Let's get Fasc/Rail....in whatever order. And run caste to pop gman asap.

 

[BLubmuz]

I can be wrong, but i can't see how a GS can help on the path to plastics.
Industrialism-plastics is almost twice as long as artillery-rocketry.
Railroad is due in 1 turn (need to verify, but it seems what Mesix's Autolog says), then fascism.

Sure, i'll post a draft PPP which needs to be discussed and revised.
In the meantime, what about some highlights by you on a PPP? possibly with variations?
About the GPr/Shrine in Rhodes if we can win without fight for Rhodes, better.
And as you said, no need to gamble and hope.
I'll evaluate also the possible change to Caste, but we'll probably have to face an high in the largest cities.

 

[Mesix]

Sorry that I have been AWOL for a few days. I was in bed with a high fever. It doesn't look like we have gotten much further on our game plan.

This late in the game, the corp/sp argument is probably a moot point. A differnece of a turn or two either way so it is probably better to play it safe and stay under sp. It would especially take its tole on our workshop cities (at least until Sushi is spread to them, but then Sushi is funding production rather than research).

Our specialist cities should be Engineering, Ulundi, and Delhi. If we switch to CS and run specialist properly we have a good chance to pop a GE, GS, and GP from each of them respectively. We may want to send some of our idle workers to build a few more farms near these three cities so that they can run more specialists.

I look forward to reading your detailed plan.

 

[BLubmuz]

First, the war:
Charlie is ready to capitulate.
If we think that the cultural pressure in Aachen can be sustainable, maybe is better accept.
Otherwise, we must defend Ulm with our Medic GG, since there's a cuirassier approaching.
Vienne can be conquered in 2 turns, lot of cats there.
We need at least 3 turns, probably 4 to take Prague.
We got some ships in Navajo, better move them.
We can use our airships to soften the cuirassier and some LB in Prague.

Former India/Celtia:
With a better MM Dehli can build WS in 10 and Verlamion is LH in 5.

Research:
We have 3021g in Bank, and we can research Railroad -GE- in 3 turns @80% +79gpt.
at this rate we can research
Fascism in 2t
Combustion -GE- in 4t (3)
Refrigeration -GM- in 4t (3)
Artillery in 4t (3)
Rocketry -GS- in 5t
for total 22 turns.
In parenthesis @90% -83gpt, for total 19 turns
I wrote the GPs for the Corps linked to the Techs, and we already have also the GA and GM necessary for Sushi and Jewels.
We also have a 3rd GE: we need to decide how use him.
Next GP will come from Ulundi in 9t and the probabilities he can be a GE are very low. Then Dehli (15) and Engineering (16).
Of course with some MM Eng can pop the GP before Dehli and the chances to pop a GE are almost 80%.

FYI the path to plastics is 5+6=11 turns @90%.
The longest wonder needs 10 turns to complete.

Hospitals:
Eng - Ulundi - Santarem - Nongoma - Marbles - Evora
those cities are now producing Wonders or wealth and we can start the hospitals to be completed in 13 turns Eng (10+3).
Leiria can build the NP in 6 turns, after Hollywood (9)
Probably Nongoma is the best candidate for the RC.
Santarem can build MtRush

We need more troops to win the Roman war, so i propose to build some instead of wealth.

If we manage to win in 22 turns, we don't need more GPs, so we can switch to FR and gain a 10% in research and a cultural boost in the new continent.

Our present WS is: turn 250, wonders 180
we're building 5WW and 1NW for 30
we're planning 3 more NW for 15 and 5 corps for 25
total 250 in 14 turns, maybe 12.
250/262=0.9541
If we manage to take the 5 roman wonders by then, we can have 275/262=1.0496
Thebes is easily reachable and this can add another wonder, or let us renounce to a roman one.
We can probably try a Diplo, once we vassallize Charlie and Caesar.
If we manage to win by conquest on turn 272, with all the possible wonders, our ratio will be: 285(SM+Aluminum)/272=1.0477.

The cities need a big MM on my inherited turn.
Let me know if i have to produce more units for the war.
I think we have enough gold to upgrade all our units to the front, so we can afford to run in deficit.

 

[WastinTime]

Get Vienne free with peace deal.

Trade for Gems

No lighthouses anywhere.

We should consider a golden age for sure. Probably burn the GE. Use the next GE on RedCross.

Be sure to switch to caste before to MM all the cities.

Are we going to spend a couple turns in Nationhood for drafting? If so, a good time to do that would be when you change to Caste. The extra happy from barracks will help while we try to stablize our happiness without Emancipation. But I think we have to go back to Bureaucracy so the captial can finish it's builds.

 

[MacBalt]

I demand lighthouses!

 

[BLubmuz]

I expected more useful comments.
There was a typo in my last wonder/turns ratio, now edited.
The LH is half completed and that city can't help with anything.
We don't need to burn a GE on RC, it's only 6 turns in Nongoma.
Next GP can be anything, probably not a GE, so we can start a GA in 9 turns from now, maybe less with some MM.

I realize that Nationhood can help the war, but the drafts and caste will give us serious problems of happiness.

If i've seen some comments on our strategy i could better focus. But:
If we choose the Rocketry path we don't need more GPs. If you missed it, i'm all for this choice.
If we are forced to conquest, we are plenty of time to build any wonder.
A GA can be useful now, not in 9 turns. But surely we can't gamble a GP on it now.
So i propose to stop with GP, forget Caste and switch to FR.
UN will be ready in 9 turns with Bureau and we can probably win by diplo in 12.
We can switch to NH for 1 turn, draft (mainly in former Portugal and India), then go back to bureau.
This way we don't lose too much pop (we need it for diplo) and we can have our units and the UN ready in 10 turns.
By then, we can start the Roman war in 3 turns from now, so it's almost completed in 10 turns.

Not sure we want Vienne back. More comments?

I wish some detailed confutations to the above, if any.
But you must demonstrate - with numbers - that your strategy can work better than mine.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Hmm... I really need more time to go over the plan (just been busy busy), but really, wonders/turn speaks the loudest.

Without going into MM, tho, are we sure that:
1. We will win the UN vote?
2. The win vote will come up immediately?

Furthermore, have we given up on Pericles' wonder? I'm guessing so, from the timeframe/plan. Also, if we did follow the longer pan for some reason, can you build a shrine while a city is still in revolt from conquest??

 

[greatbeyond]

Like every one else I will need another day or two to really analyze your proposal. On the surface it seems good. The question is can we fine tune it anywhere to improve our win date or the number of wonders we have.

Build Airships. They take just one turn to get to the front and the AI doesn't have any defense against them yet. With enough of them we can soften up the AI cities at no risk like there is with artillery.

 

[berserks01]

If our pop is over the threshhold, the win vote won't be triggered. I'm pretty sure of this, but someone can confirm it.

Build troops in the captured cities, leave our core cities for wonders. It too bad we're not in Slavery or Nationhood. Whipping and drafting would save many turns, and it'll help bring our pop threshhold down if it's too high.

 

[BLubmuz]

More possibilities come in mind:
If we decide to follow my strategy, we can burn the 3rd GE on Pentagon, and accelerate the RC timing.

Also, we can vassallize Charlie, let Vienne to him so we don't need troops to protect it.
Revolt immediately to NH/FR, draft the hell in the cities closest to the front, then go back to Bureau next turn.
We can even consider to revolt to NH/FR/Slavery, whip and draft, than go back to Emanc/Bureau next turn.

If you missed, i'm concerned by our need of troops.
We need no less than 13 turns to complete our wonders/corps, but by then we must have all the roman wonders.
I doubt anyone will have a wonder/turns ratio >1 like we can have if we manage a Diplo in the first or second UN vote.

Good catch about airships. I can build some before hospitals in the "hospital cities".

If we stay in SP - and i think it's the best choice - we can build the Corps anywhere, they add nor subtracts nothing to the city. Just is probably better avoid the new continent, in case of a disaster.

Xposted with Bers.
I don't think our pop is over the threshold, but surely some draf/whip will avoid this.

 

[berserks01]

You know I could be wrong, but I don't think you can build Corps in SP. Can someone confirm?

If not, I'll look into it when I have a chance.

 

[BLubmuz]

You know I could be wrong, but I don't think you can build Corps in SP. Can someone confirm?

If not, I'll look into it when I have a chance.

For what i know, in 3.17 you can build Corps under any civic. In Merc you have higher costs, in SP they have no effects.
But i need only to mouse over a GM to see if he can build Sushi.
I'll do it when i'll open the save to make adjustements to my PPP.

In case i'm wrong, i can revolt to FM in the inherited turn, then go back to SP.
Or we can just wait to have all the techs needed, revolt for 1 turn, found the 5 Corps, go back to SP.