SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

[greatbeyond]

It looks like things went well Blubmuz. It is too bad the RNG took out some of our Maces.
I see WT's thinking about the Super Medic not being a stack defender. It seems the best unit for the SM is either a chariot or Warrior. Unfortunately we didn't have Horses before this TS so a Warrior would have been the best choice.(hindsight is always 20/20). I wouldn't have even thought about this and I'm glad someone else did.

As for the war starting earlier, it was simply not possible. We didn't have enough units and Shaka had too many, even if they were inferior. This is a case of decisions we make now affecting what we can do later. We made the decision to hold off on military and have to deal with things as they are now.

I too think revolting now is not a bad choice. We can whip in our two new cities to get a Courthouse.
I am not too concerned about cottages as long as we have lots of coastal tiles we are working at 3 gold each. Not that we shouldn't build some, but our Workers have been busy with other things. Cottage spamming Ulundi does seem like a good idea as long as it has some bonus food tiles to grow quickly. We will need more Workers to grow fast.

As for new contacts, we'll need to think about what we are going to trade, if at all.

At this point our strategy needs to be goal oriented with method guidelines, not minutely detailed as we could spend days hammering out each turn and going one turn at a time. I am confident that if anyone of us runs into something important, we will stop and seek advice.

 

[BLubmuz]

It looks like things went well Blubmuz. It is too bad the RNG took out some of our Maces.
OTOH, i won some fight at 27% or so
I see WT's thinking about the Super Medic not being a stack defender. It seems the best unit for the SM is either a chariot or Warrior. Unfortunately we didn't have Horses before this TS so a Warrior would have been the best choice.(hindsight is always 20/20). I wouldn't have even thought about this and I'm glad someone else did.
Warrior is a good idea, but the starting XP can give the spear the chance to be promoted in fight: if he find some damaged mounted unit, or very damaged other unit, he can fight, and gain the few XP to have the Morale promotion

As for the war starting earlier, it was simply not possible. We didn't have enough units and Shaka had too many, even if they were inferior. This is a case of decisions we make now affecting what we can do later. We made the decision to hold off on military and have to deal with things as they are now.
No, i think WT said "if only Shaka attacked 10 turns later"
I too think revolting now is not a bad choice. We can whip in our two new cities to get a Courthouse.
Yes, but we loose the specialists. Anyway, with our situation on happiness, i guess HR is a forced choice.
I am not too concerned about cottages as long as we have lots of coastal tiles we are working at 3 gold each. Not that we shouldn't build some, but our Workers have been busy with other things. Cottage spamming Ulundi does seem like a good idea as long as it has some bonus food tiles to grow quickly. We will need more Workers to grow fast.

As for new contacts, we'll need to think about what we are going to trade, if at all.
Yes, i don't wanna trade with only one AI: we desperately need the techs i obtained, the others can wait 'til we meet some other AI

At this point our strategy needs to be goal oriented with method guidelines, not minutely detailed as we could spend days hammering out each turn and going one turn at a time. I am confident that if anyone of us runs into something important, we will stop and seek advice.

Yes, in any case we have to face any sort of event.
Pointless to be very detailed in plan, we must be very focused when we play.

 

[Sweetacshon]

Nice battling, Blubmuz! It shouldn't take long to finish him off now. I notice SoZ (as well as Hagia S) went to the wonder hog out there. I wonder () who it is? Someone different than that which built the mids, or just in a different city?

Ulundi looks nice, but let's raze that one on the copper to the north, it is useless. Maybe the one to the west as well. Horse is a keeper, of course. For trades... I'm not sure, do we hold off until we find others? Calendar is en route to Astro, but not immediately necessary. Med would be good for monasteries and sending missionaries, and mono for OR if we want a building phase (+confu).
edit: Yes, I'm still for the civics switch.

What's the plan Berserks?

ahem
approved plan? with the RNG involved? fight, that's all
of course i made some MM here and there, and now we need a galley to take back the Stone worker to the mainland, he's building roads, nothing better to do.

Yes, in any case we have to face any sort of event.
Pointless to be very detailed in plan, we must be very focused when we play.

No, I can't agree. This sets a bad precedent. Obviously it is hard to give a detailed plan about what battles take place, as we're unsure what the enemy will do, but builds, techs, workers, etc should still be discussed as normal. What is different about this particular TS compared to the previous ones?

I didn't have much time at all in the end of this week, but surely others would've wanted to comment on (at least) cities, builds, and workers for the TS. For example, we're still crazily mixing GMan points, some city tile use is suboptimal (Parma is working an unimproved gl, etc), we should have been working toward a galley and probably another caravel, espionage points are still skewed to Shaka, what happened to sending missionaries abroad, etc. Granted, some things are not foreseeable, again due to AI, but I don't see any reason to discard the plan, discuss, play method that has worked so far.

 

[berserks01]

Well done, Blub. Excellent warring there

I do have a couple of minor gripes though, which will be fixed as part of my TS as well.

We are sorely lacking in workers, 3 workers for 7 cities (including Shaka's 2 that we captured). I'm suprised that we didn't capture any workers during the war.

The worker at Stones will chop those 2 forests towards finishing the forge and lighthouse next, and he'll cottage those 2 tiles before being carted off to the mainland since there won't be anything left to improve for that city.

The worker at 5th is mining a forested grasshill. I always chop before improving. In this case, chopping first would finish the mace and overflow some into the second mace and would be building a third mace by the time he finishes mining that hill. But just mining a forested hill you will only get 2 maces when he's done. After mining that hill, he'll work on chopping and cottaging 5th (no cottages yet WT).

The worker at Parma will cottage the 3 grassland before mining that plains hill, and chopping and cottage the forested grass there. While at it, I'll switch 5th from the west plains hill to work the mined grass hill, leaving that plains hill to Parma to work.

I'll also change 5th from the shared fish with Marbles to a coastal tile, and have Marbles spit out at least one (maybe 2) workers while working that fish before giving it back.
First worker out will work on improving Engineering tiles, and if a second worker comes out he will help improve Engineering or whichever requires his attention first.

On the war front, that stack forming at Shaka's ex-rice city will head towards horse and joined by the 3 healthy maces at Ulundi. The rest will heal and MP Ulundi. After horse city, the stack will head up towards Shaka's remaining copper city. This city will be tough since it's on a hill and will be guarded by axes and archers. I want to leave his west city last to keep Joao separated by it and since it isn't much of a threat. I'm almost positive Shaka's workers are at these 2 cities, but we'll see.

Our next Great Person is in 12 turns at 5th, so he won't pop during my TS. But the stats are 9% GS, 67% GM, and 24% GE. Let's cross our fingers and hope for a GE.

I'm thinking revolt to HR and Slavery on my inherited turn, what do you guys think?

Well, that's my plan even though I won't get nearly that much done during my TS.

 

[berserks01]

I am not too concerned about cottages as long as we have lots of coastal tiles we are working at 3 gold each

The problem is that working coastal won't provide enough food unless we get a lighthouse out, and only 2 cities have lighthouses at the moment. And cottages need time to grow, so building them sooner rather than later is better.

 

[berserks01]

Of topic for a minute here, but I just noticed that it's my 1500th post All 2 of them

 

[Mesix]

Whatever GP type pops out of 5th, we should seriously think about saving it for one of the Corporations. We need to ensure that we have the required (2 GM, 2 GE, 2 GS, and 1 GA) corporate HQ peeps before we go joining a city or bulbing a tech.

Corporate HQ count as wonders.

 

[WastinTime]

I looked at the save. Blub, your caravel piloting is not well thought out. Assuming the land mass is circular or egg-shaped, you should have headed east at the equator. Not toward the north pole. Certainly, when you saw the fish, you should have turned toward land there. Then, when you saw the barbarians, you should have gone the other way. We could have met 3 AI by now if we sailed properly. If we find the north pole is completely blocked by ice, then we've got another huge set-back.

Did you consider trading for Perc's map? That could instantly give us the circumnav bonus.

OMG, I just now checked the tech. He'll trade calendar! and Meditation (and his map). With calendar, we could be researching Astron now instead of edu. I'm not sayin that's for sure what we want, but we should consider it. Astronomy opens up huge gains on trade routes. We will FOR SURE want it before we attack Joao (which is soon in my book.)

Economy: I'm shocked to see us at 50% and bleeding. In my tests, I was doing 220 beakers/turn at this time. We're at ~65 beakers if you tune our cashflow to 0. Somehow, in the past 35 turns, we've set ourselves back 25+ turns in tech. My tests finished astronomy now. I don't see astronomy coming for 25 turns. This SG is officially in the crapper. Good God, it's 500 AD and we don't have one single cottage! I would have put them in way back when we were working on the GLighthouse. They'd be villages by now. What's the point of an early academy? If we don't focus that city on research?

I hope no one gets too offended by my truthiness. (I've been drinking tequila.) I tried not to blame anyone (ok, i did pick on Blub for his sailing skills). I'm not sayin' the people who played the last 40 turns are to blame either. Somehow, as a team, we just got WAY off track. Lost sight of our goal.

 

[WastinTime]

berserk: Don't forget the happiness coming from HR. The capitol will want to grow, so keep on the fish. Also, Joao is somehow in the trade network?! So watch him for resource trades. I see we are not getting trade route income from him though. Not sure why resource trades are on, but not the other income. Our goal in the Shaka war should be to get Joao's trade route income turned on ASAP. I'm not sure if getting rid of the copper city will re-connect us, but I'm quite sure the horse city will not.

 

[BLubmuz]

The reason why i didn't posted a plan before play, it's simple: we already has a plan. I explain:
5burg and Parma have to build miitary units
Engineering the forge, now 1 turn left, 'cause i has to build the WB to avoid lost 1 pop.
Marble the Moai and stone the forge.

You're right about cottages, but now we must close the war ASAP, and mines are the best thing to do.
Usually i improve directly, especially at normal speed, it's my style and usually it's bettr than chop then improve.

Sailing: first off i lost 3 turns, maybe 4 to take the GG from Marbles (why in the hell he popped there?) and usually i go in diagonal to try to circumnavigate... not right? sometime it works sometime not.
But i can bet Pericles is alone in his landmass.

WT, in my test i was doing far better, but i has Pyramids and not the GLH.
Also i popped some silver and gem from the mines, but mainly Shaka never declared on me.
This is the key, he did in the actual game what he didn't in the tests.

Yes, we need a worker, better 2, Engineering can produce them, Marbles is busy with the forge now.
We can cottage one tile it's sharing with the Capital to have the hammers go in the forge, then the capital can work the cottage.

Astro before Edu? it can work, maybe, we can attack with maces if we manage to go fast.

As i already said, i don'd wanna trade with only one AI: you give him too much and he can trade with other. If we trade with more we can increase our knowledge, and they gain 1-2 techs each.

 

[Mesix]

We should probably crank out another caraval to go the other direction. That would help to seal the circumnavigate bonus.

We need Currency, Guilds, and Banking to rescue our economy. I would prefer to research Guilds after Education and trade for Currency before we research Banking.

I think we need to rush for Rifeling after we rescue our economy and get science output back up. We can get Astronomy with Liberalism after we research Rifeling. That will give us time to either war with Joao or build up our empire (or both) before we invade the other continent.

 

[berserks01]

berserk: Don't forget the happiness coming from HR. The capitol will want to grow, so keep on the fish. Also, Joao is somehow in the trade network?! So watch him for resource trades. I see we are not getting trade route income from him though. Not sure why resource trades are on, but not the other income. Our goal in the Shaka war should be to get Joao's trade route income turned on ASAP. I'm not sure if getting rid of the copper city will re-connect us, but I'm quite sure the horse city will not.

The trade income is cut off because Shaka's 2 cities block the sea route to our cities. It need a clear sea route to our cities for the trade income to come online.

The happiness from HR is the main reason I wanted to switch to it in the first place.

So are we all for switching to HR and Slavery?

 

[WastinTime]

Here are my disagreements with the last few posts:

We can end this war without more military coming all the way from the capitol. Our army is good size---borderline getting too big ($$$).

GG: I was told he would board the boat on the end of one turn and exit the beginning of the next, no significant loss in movement.

If you take the shortest route (equator) looking for coastal water. Trade for a map + tech. Instant circumnav! ...and you know which way to sail around. The shape of Joao's land indicates that the open water is more likely around the south side. No 2nd caravel.

Pyramids isn't such a big deal. We should not be running any specialists except the engineers. If we had been running slavery for the past 30 turns, whipping out lighthouses, working water tiles to re-grow we'd be in great shape.

The war also not the end of the world. If we had continued to cottage the capitol, we'd be OK. Just a few turns behind instead of (estimated) 25 by the time we recover.

Marbles makes our workers! not Engineering. Marbles does not need a forge that badly. It should whip a lighthouse. Do NOT whip workers. Marbles can build those with food.

Stone doesn't really need a forge that urgently either.

Agree we can't give it all to Perc, but Calendar is probably worth it. I'd switch to Astron immediately.

Currency will come soon (free), but it's almost useless without Astronomy.

I have never once researched guilds in any game, ever. Probably not banking either.

Rifling is not even required to complete this whole game. I do agree we may want it (need it.). MilTrad is another, quicker, option, but I understand you want to make use of the macemen. In my tests, I traded for rifling free and got Assembly line soon after for Infantry.

 

[WastinTime]

So are we all for switching to HR and Slavery?

I am. Don't forget to have Marbles move off the workshop and into the water.

 

[WastinTime]

Do not make a forge in uMgung....
Library!

Same for Ulundi.

 

[WastinTime]

Be sure to slow all birth rates so Engineering makes a GE for our 3rd person (unless y'all want to rush out a GS for lightbulbing. I'm normally strongly against that idea, but it may help us recover.) If Engineering does not make a GE, heads will explode.

 

[WastinTime]

Our worker is mining yet another hill around the capitol. We will probably never work that tile and we just lose health. Stop him. Cottage, cottage, cottage.

Build a granary and put the next 4 citizens on cottages. (I'd probably even stop working the PH/mine) Better off in the water if cottages aren't ready.

 

[WastinTime]

Ug, Parma is working some really bad tiles. Use the Colossus before it's obsolete! Get on the water tiles. Or, use the PH/mine that the capitol is on.

 

[WastinTime]

I just checked my test game. 13 cottages at this turn#.

 

[berserks01]

WT, most of your comments are inline with my plan, so agreed.

I'll see about trading for Calendar, and take a closer look at the Caravel route.

I was gonna let the worker finish mining the hill at 5th, but you're right better to stop him now.

I would like courthouses at Shaka's ex-cities first before lib, what do you think?

I'll play tonite unless there are disagreements or if the team wants more discussion.