culdeus
Emperor
I just don't think our CE will get up to speed in time to support the needs of this VC for a variety of reasons. Conquest is still on the table the way I see it.
SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I just don't think our CE will get up to speed in time to support the needs of this VC for a variety of reasons. Conquest is still on the table the way I see it.
But won't we just vassalize Gandhi and Augustus around t200-t230? Maybe settle a couple of the bigger islands if we think we need more land. Our economy can support that. How close would we be to dom. then?
Again if our land is short, we could figure out how to drop Joao as a vassal and take his land. Or just never take him as vassal in the first place.
(If anyone doesn't know....vassal land only counts 50% for domination)
Anyone want to count tiles?
Again if our land is short, we could figure out how to drop Joao as a vassal and take his land. Or just never take him as vassal in the first place.
(If anyone doesn't know....vassal land only counts 50% for domination)
Anyone want to count tiles?
culdeus
Emperor
I'll count the tiles next time I'm up. We are probably missing a few islands in the fog anyways at this point. I haven't ever done a dom with vassals. Takes too long. Though I can see how this might work in this format with the whole wonder thing.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
If we are going to vassalize AI players, we need to be sure that we have captured all the wonders and crippled them enough so they will not build any that remain (either lack techs or lack production). It would be a shame to vassalize Ghandi and then watch him pump out 2-3 more wonders after that.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
Checking in. I had a busy weekend, hence the lack of posts.
I didn't realise that Gandhi was on 10 in the "iWonderConstructRand" stakes. It's funny that he's building them alot of them. Why is this, I wonder, just because he had a tech lead? Anyway, we have Augustus and Pericles with scores of 40. I am still of a mind to keep one (or both) of these friendly, giving them a hand with techs that will help him/ them build wonders while we beat on the remaining AI. What does everyone think about this? Obviously Gandhi would be easiest to take down, being a whimp, but will he build all the wonders for us?
On this point, I don't mind too much about trading away techs, as it's not just how quickly we can eek out a win, but about the total wonders in our sphere as well. For this reason, isn't global tech pace the crux of the matter? So now that we have more map info, perhaps we'll be able to work out who will be our wonder friends (until we stab them in the back). I am happy to go with a vassal aided dom win... if the numbers (=tiles) check out ok.
All this is generalised, as I haven't checked the most recent save yet, which I'll most likely do in a few hours.
I didn't realise that Gandhi was on 10 in the "iWonderConstructRand" stakes. It's funny that he's building them alot of them. Why is this, I wonder, just because he had a tech lead? Anyway, we have Augustus and Pericles with scores of 40. I am still of a mind to keep one (or both) of these friendly, giving them a hand with techs that will help him/ them build wonders while we beat on the remaining AI. What does everyone think about this? Obviously Gandhi would be easiest to take down, being a whimp, but will he build all the wonders for us?
On this point, I don't mind too much about trading away techs, as it's not just how quickly we can eek out a win, but about the total wonders in our sphere as well. For this reason, isn't global tech pace the crux of the matter? So now that we have more map info, perhaps we'll be able to work out who will be our wonder friends (until we stab them in the back). I am happy to go with a vassal aided dom win... if the numbers (=tiles) check out ok.
All this is generalised, as I haven't checked the most recent save yet, which I'll most likely do in a few hours.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
And we already have it, the Spear.
berserks01
Obviously Very Confused
Just looked it up, it's actually a level 5 that we need
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/#Wonders
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Well, when that spear will be a rifleman it would be easy to gain a few missing points. Fact is that WP is a very expensive NW.Just looked it up, it's actually a level 5 that we need
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/#Wonders
BTW, since WT wanna play, if it's OK for Sweeta they can swap.
I'm out for 24 hours, so either Sweeta can play, or I'll post a plan on Tuesday.
Just looked it up, it's actually a level 5 that we need
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/#Wonders
That guide might be old, or not BTS. I'm still convinced it's level 6.
culdeus
Emperor
Interesting thought do you take out the guys that are building the wonders or instead take out the guys that aren't? I mean you can raze the cities that have no wonders and not take on the cost of it while building a huge economy up back home to get to the corporations. Then slam the door on ghandi and take his 5-7 wonders.
In any situation we are a long way from making landfall on the other island. What is even a remotely reasonable astro date at this point?
Astron in 10 turns (12 max)
culdeus
Emperor
Well that's not so bad.
culdeus
Emperor
Thought this needed to be pushed forward again. So 3AI with no wonders. We need HRE to self build Buddist Shrine so they aren't a candidate for invasion yet.
Need to select first victim and best buddy on the island.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
I think that Ghandi is the best victim. The three shrines will really help our economy along. Delhi might be a better candidate for Wall St than Parma...we'll have to wait and see the economic impact of both. Either way, markets, banks, etc. with the shrines will be a huge benefit.
The Statue of Zues will be nice to hinder any AI that decides to DOW us before we are ready to hit them. He will probably have the AP by the time we DOW him too, so the first strike will have to be quick.
The Statue of Zues will be nice to hinder any AI that decides to DOW us before we are ready to hit them. He will probably have the AP by the time we DOW him too, so the first strike will have to be quick.
greatbeyond
King
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2002
- Messages
- 989
If we want to go for a Domination victory, I think it is easily doable and we should be able to control when we win. I saw an earlier post where someone mentioned that Vassals territory only counts as 50% of it's value toward the Dom limit (I didn't realize this). This will need some exploring to see how it would work. Should we Vassalize those civs that don't have any wonders and control what they research and produce? I'm going to run some tests on how to "get rid of" vassals, and controlling what they do.
A conquest victory may also be easy to pull of if we stay below the Dom limit until we have reached a tipping point in wonders vs turns and then attack the last AI and get them to capitulate quickly. Does anyone know for sure if this would trigger the conquest win? IE..having all AIs as our vassals and being below the Dom limit.
It seems there are two different ways to go from here. Do we: Take Gandhi's wonder cities and then vassalize him, or work on the others, leaving him for last. Letting him build all the wonders he wants, before we steal his wonders and eliminate him? I am leaning toward the last option but can't base the decision on anything solid yet. I would suggest our first target be Rome (if he doesn't have Prats yet.)
Right now there are only 75 wonderpoints (25 ours) on the map in 145 turns. If we win this turn it would give a ratio of 1.67. ((75/310)x1000)/145.
See this post for the formula: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7190693&postcount=72
Once we get closer to the win, our decisions have to based on looking ahead and seeing if getting more wonders is worth the greater number of turns.
I'm leaning toward Getting our continent filled as quickly as possible and emphasizing science and wonder builds. Things do seem to be building up rather slowly and this might not pay dividends until much later. Rushing to the quickest victory now leaves us well short of wonders
A conquest victory may also be easy to pull of if we stay below the Dom limit until we have reached a tipping point in wonders vs turns and then attack the last AI and get them to capitulate quickly. Does anyone know for sure if this would trigger the conquest win? IE..having all AIs as our vassals and being below the Dom limit.
It seems there are two different ways to go from here. Do we: Take Gandhi's wonder cities and then vassalize him, or work on the others, leaving him for last. Letting him build all the wonders he wants, before we steal his wonders and eliminate him? I am leaning toward the last option but can't base the decision on anything solid yet. I would suggest our first target be Rome (if he doesn't have Prats yet.)
Right now there are only 75 wonderpoints (25 ours) on the map in 145 turns. If we win this turn it would give a ratio of 1.67. ((75/310)x1000)/145.
See this post for the formula: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7190693&postcount=72
Once we get closer to the win, our decisions have to based on looking ahead and seeing if getting more wonders is worth the greater number of turns.
I'm leaning toward Getting our continent filled as quickly as possible and emphasizing science and wonder builds. Things do seem to be building up rather slowly and this might not pay dividends until much later. Rushing to the quickest victory now leaves us well short of wonders
culdeus
Emperor
So some of the theories being floated around are something along the lines of
1) Kill now, build later - Take Ghandi and other wonder cities and vassalize or eliminate the AI on the other continent. Build other wonders while moving towards a domination win using J and one other AI to help tech pace to corporations.
2) Tech now, kill later - Hold off on an invasion till rifles vs. longbow type mismatch and then roll the island in a conquest taking the wonders the AI builds in the meantime.
Question is what are we even setup to support given our current city development and economy?
1) Kill now, build later - Take Ghandi and other wonder cities and vassalize or eliminate the AI on the other continent. Build other wonders while moving towards a domination win using J and one other AI to help tech pace to corporations.
2) Tech now, kill later - Hold off on an invasion till rifles vs. longbow type mismatch and then roll the island in a conquest taking the wonders the AI builds in the meantime.
Question is what are we even setup to support given our current city development and economy?
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
Thee shrines would really change our economic outlook on the other continent.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
cities:
5th - (market) granary, baray, temple, colosseum, (spy,missionary) research, order TBD
Parma - (lh) forge, cats
Marbles - (harbour) forge
Eng - (lh) colosseum, monastery, temple, market
Stoney - (lh) granary, court
uMgu... to be renamed! - (lib) granary - this place has NO production. Perhaps just slow build/whip for cash buildings ie market, harbour.
Ulundi - (lib) granary, colosseum, (temple?) court
Nobamba - (lib)
workers: Clear the damn jungle. Cottage around Eng and uMgu and continue around the capital. What is the plan for Ulundi? In addition to a heap of food, this could be a great production city (or commerce)? I'll start with mines.
war: Take out copper city, vassalise.
trades: I'm all for vassalising Shaka. Trades for feudalism are CS+65, mach+150, compass+CoL+155. We could put a turn or 2 into it to reduce the cash component? I notice our trade routes with Joao are non existant due to the lack of 1 road to the SW of Ulundi. This will be rectified.
demands: No doubt we'll get some for techs. I'm not sure to approach these... we need to decide who our friends are. I'm all for letting Gandhi be our builder.
I've attached a map of where the wonders are (red circles). I think a valid plan would be to start in the west, vassalising Pericles, Charlie, and Boudsy. Depending on where we start, we can either gift back the cities when we vassalise, or split off a new colony in the north for greek cities, or in the south I suggest keeping the outlined cities and razing the crossed ones, vassalising as we go.This is a rough outline and will depend on dom limits/ tile counts, etc.
Meanwhile, Gandhi and Augustus build us wonders (or we do) and we can stroll to a vassal assisted dom win at leisure... after we get the corps in, I supppose.
5th - (market) granary, baray, temple, colosseum, (spy,missionary) research, order TBD
Parma - (lh) forge, cats
Marbles - (harbour) forge
Eng - (lh) colosseum, monastery, temple, market
Stoney - (lh) granary, court
uMgu... to be renamed! - (lib) granary - this place has NO production. Perhaps just slow build/whip for cash buildings ie market, harbour.
Ulundi - (lib) granary, colosseum, (temple?) court
Nobamba - (lib)
workers: Clear the damn jungle. Cottage around Eng and uMgu and continue around the capital. What is the plan for Ulundi? In addition to a heap of food, this could be a great production city (or commerce)? I'll start with mines.
war: Take out copper city, vassalise.
trades: I'm all for vassalising Shaka. Trades for feudalism are CS+65, mach+150, compass+CoL+155. We could put a turn or 2 into it to reduce the cash component? I notice our trade routes with Joao are non existant due to the lack of 1 road to the SW of Ulundi. This will be rectified.
demands: No doubt we'll get some for techs. I'm not sure to approach these... we need to decide who our friends are. I'm all for letting Gandhi be our builder.
I've attached a map of where the wonders are (red circles). I think a valid plan would be to start in the west, vassalising Pericles, Charlie, and Boudsy. Depending on where we start, we can either gift back the cities when we vassalise, or split off a new colony in the north for greek cities, or in the south I suggest keeping the outlined cities and razing the crossed ones, vassalising as we go.This is a rough outline and will depend on dom limits/ tile counts, etc.
Meanwhile, Gandhi and Augustus build us wonders (or we do) and we can stroll to a vassal assisted dom win at leisure... after we get the corps in, I supppose.
Attachments
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
Does Parma have a market already?
If not...that should be the first build there to get 25% more $$$ from the shrine.
Can we get a missionary in from 5th to take to the other continent? India and Holy Rome are both good recipients for a missionary and may spread our religion for us.
If not...that should be the first build there to get 25% more $$$ from the shrine.
Can we get a missionary in from 5th to take to the other continent? India and Holy Rome are both good recipients for a missionary and may spread our religion for us.
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