Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
Something I forgot to mention. HRE is barely hindu,at least it was when our map was made, I wonder if he'll switch back?
SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Something I forgot to mention. HRE is barely hindu,at least it was when our map was made, I wonder if he'll switch back?
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Don't vassalize Shaka.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
Why (not)?
I learned that vassals do not work like Perm Alliances regarding the BFC of each city. PA's let you keep your BFC no matter what culture borders. A vassal like gandhi would completely overwhelm our captured wonder cities with his culture (and probably flip them back to him.) Solution: raze all of his cities except the wonder cities. His cities seem positioned well for this kind of takeover. I like him as a first target. His wonder cities should not get a lot of culture pressure from the surrounding AI, so I think we can stablize that territory.
Agree. Trade routes will be re-instated as soon as you declare peace (in 2 turns) taking Shaka's city in the deal. No vassal. No trade for feudal. We don't need it and we want to keep the AI as backward as possible. CS/bureau is a huge boost.
Can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe Eng doesn't need so many cottages. Leave the jungle for a while and we'll do mostly workshops, but not right now.
Captiol needs more cottages.
Ulundi needs COTTAGES--Remember, it has an academy!
No temples. No coloseums. We're going to get a ton of happy in 10 turns (astron = resource trades) Maybe some courthouses in Shaka's cities, but not our cities close to the capitol.
Stop the harbor in Marbles. (Gran, lighthouse instead) Whip that forge!
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Finally, me and WT agree on something after the CS sling.
I agree on every word he posted.
Usually my play style is "take no prisoners" no vassals, maybe we can consider in the end, to quickly reach the dom or conquest.
I agree on every word he posted.
Usually my play style is "take no prisoners" no vassals, maybe we can consider in the end, to quickly reach the dom or conquest.
berserks01
Obviously Very Confused
I'm sure the worker I have there is cottaging, and whatever is farmed is left over from Shaka.
Harbor give 50% trade yield, which should be quite hefty in all our coastal cities once trade routes are opened up .... delaying it is ok, but I'm against stopping it.
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
Agree. Trade routes will be re-instated as soon as you declare peace (in 2 turns) taking Shaka's city in the deal. No vassal. No trade for feudal. We don't need it and we want to keep the AI as backward as possible. CS/bureau is a huge boost.
As I said, building that 1 piece of road will reconnect us to Joao. On top of that, I suppose I need 2 things explained to me:Can't believe I'm saying this, but maybe Eng doesn't need so many cottages. Leave the jungle for a while and we'll do mostly workshops, but not right now.
- Why don't we want to give a whimp like Gandhi extra techs, in this case machinery? Won't he build wonders for us? When has he ever been hard to take out, especially on monarch? Or are we planning to conquer the world with maces?
- Why not vassalise Shaka? Are we going to settle his land? Is the plan then to raze copper city, take his city gift for peace, and then clean him up in another 10 turns (with cats)?
Not that it'd get many this TS, but you might be right. With Ulundi and uMg bearing cottages, we could afford it, I think.
No temples. No coloseums. We're going to get a ton of happy in 10 turns (astron = resource trades) Maybe some courthouses in Shaka's cities, but not our cities close to the capitol.
Hmmm.... if you are sure... I actually forgot to have a good look at the resource distribution over there.It's a valid point, so it'll be food and econ buildings instead.
Stop the harbor in Marbles. (Gran, lighthouse instead) Whip that forge!
Harbour only has a few turns left, but it can wait 'til after forge, no doubt.
OK, I can accept not vassalising Shaka if we will take his land, and I can play this TS if that is the case (I'd like to hear from everyone else, also), but I admit that I am confused as to the best (=highest wonder score) way to win this. WT, your idea seems to be to take out the guy who has been building the most wonders, whereas it seems intuitive to me to help him with tech so he will build them for us. How do you see us keeping up a good (or at least better) tech pace with him dead or exiled? Should we encourage any AI to build wonders? Pericles and Augustus, iirc had 40 modifiers, and I haven't checked if either of them has a great capital or primary city, but would that be an option?
I will play in about 20-24 hrs, so there is a little more time to discuss things.
culdeus
Emperor
I thought at one time the plan would devlop to kill the low wonder modified AI in lieu of letting the high wonder modified AI run wild and build some for us. However, it looks like the low wonder modified AI (ghandi) is building all the wonders. It would be good to have a code reader to figure out if that modifier later goes on to effect the tendency to build additional wonders if he already has a bunch.
My general inclination is to just take out Shaka all the way and Ghandi all the way then see if we can get the 40s up to speed to start building stuff for us. G as we all know is not exactly inclined to build up a massive stack of defenders. JC would then be the next target.
My general inclination is to just take out Shaka all the way and Ghandi all the way then see if we can get the 40s up to speed to start building stuff for us. G as we all know is not exactly inclined to build up a massive stack of defenders. JC would then be the next target.
Let's delay the discussion on whom to attack on the other side of th world for a while. The army might as well cruise thru half of Joao's land, heading west. That puts them 1 short boat ride to Ghandi or Rome. (Someone mentioned Perc. Why? 1) He's so far away. 2) He has no wonders and could be our friend to the end.
Capturing usefull wonders is another way to look at that choice, but again, let's hold on that. Good discussion so far.
Sweeta, How about an updated PPP and another round of discussion.
Berserks: I saw the cottage goin in at Ulundi, nice (wasn't saying you did anything wrong, just correcting Sweeta's plan to mine Ulundi). I also agree with you that the harbor can come some day.
I'm not sure about that 1 road connecting us to Joao. You're assuming there's more road between J and Shaka's old city. I bet not. Either way the peace will do it in 2 turns.
Not sure uMG should bother with more cottages either. For now, concentrate on capitol and Ulundi.
Don't forget there are 2 workers on our galley. How'd that happen? Stone's worker is wasting time too, let's move him back. No more workers for a while.
Capturing usefull wonders is another way to look at that choice, but again, let's hold on that. Good discussion so far.
Sweeta, How about an updated PPP and another round of discussion.
Berserks: I saw the cottage goin in at Ulundi, nice (wasn't saying you did anything wrong, just correcting Sweeta's plan to mine Ulundi). I also agree with you that the harbor can come some day.
I'm not sure about that 1 road connecting us to Joao. You're assuming there's more road between J and Shaka's old city. I bet not. Either way the peace will do it in 2 turns.
Not sure uMG should bother with more cottages either. For now, concentrate on capitol and Ulundi.
Don't forget there are 2 workers on our galley. How'd that happen? Stone's worker is wasting time too, let's move him back. No more workers for a while.
berserks01
Obviously Very Confused
That was from my set. The second worker of the two just finished when the galley that popped out of Stone made it's way there, and they were loaded onto the galley that same turn (which just happens to be the last turn of my set).
The worker at Stone also happen to finish the cottage that very same turn, so he's waiting for the other 2 to disembark and the galley can come back for him.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
If we farm W of uMmung, the rice will be irrigated... can be another GP procuder.
berserks01
Obviously Very Confused
Right. But do we want or need another GP farm or spam cottages for more coins.
Mesix
Obergruppenführer
I like the idea to finish Shaka off. Vassalizing gains us nothing and I don't really want to sue for peace while he is on the ropes.
I'd like to make a comment about Engineering. Once we research Steel we will be able to get the Ironworks and run 3 more engineers. At that time we will want to have farms to produce the food for specialists. That is a more long term plan and we can run cottages or workshops in the near term. I do think that we should make the research for Steel a priority as it will give us more GE to found corps and rush wonders.
I'd like to make a comment about Engineering. Once we research Steel we will be able to get the Ironworks and run 3 more engineers. At that time we will want to have farms to produce the food for specialists. That is a more long term plan and we can run cottages or workshops in the near term. I do think that we should make the research for Steel a priority as it will give us more GE to found corps and rush wonders.
We need peace badly (probably as soon as we took the horse city we should have done it). We also get a free city which would take almost 10 turns to move our troops in and take anyway. At normal speed, we need to consider our movement costs more. We also get free HorseBR, right?
Sweeta: your plan doesn't say what the army is going to do after 2 turns (raze copper city, peace). Are we all agreed that the army goes to J's border and attacks after Astronomy is in? Maybe leave a couple macemen that need to heal back for shaka cleanup?
Next turn we get horses. And with free HBR, we get a stable. How about a couple chariots for police duty? They can move in quickly are relieve the spear/axes so they can move to the front for police duty in J's cities.
What about the GG: let's for sure not settle it in the capitol. The capitol should not build miliitary. It will not build the heroic epic. Maybe something closer to the front, like Ulundi. Or how about a 2nd super medic (with 2 movement). Our chariots (w/stable) will be 5 exp. Win one battle, and they're 6 exp. If we put GG on it, it will get 3 movement. Which reminds me. If there is ever a heavily damaged unit we should attack with our super-medic/spearman. He's almost ready for the +movement promotion.
@Mesix: Engineering has plenty of food to run 4 engineers without farms.
We should consider the rush to Astronomy like the early race to alphabet. Every turn counts. Let's burn some cash. Go at least 60% research. In 2 turns (peace), I'd bet you can go 70%. MM our cities to work some water tiles before we lose Colossus. Astro in 10.
Don't you mean East?
Sweetacshon
In the foetal position
PPP v2.0
Play until astro.
cities:
5th - (market) granary, baray, (colosseum - they are so cheap for us, I'll decide ingame if it'd be useful for another happy right away) (spy, missionary) research,
Parma - (lh) forge, cats
Marbles - forge (whip), (harbour),lh
Eng - (lh) (colosseum, monastery, temple, market) It depends on what whether we want workshops - I suppose a baray would be useful. Any other suggestions?
Stoney - (lh) granary, court
uMgu... to be renamed! - (lib) granary - this place has NO production. Perhaps just slow build/whip for cash buildings ie market, harbour.
Ulundi - (lib) granary, court
Nobamba - (lib)
workers: Who says we have too many workers? - transport all to the mainland. Concentrate on cottaging the capital and Ulundi. Secondary tasks are the farm link to the gl NW of Parma, farm to uMgu's rice, the road to Joao, the jungle.
war: Take out copper city. Half of us say peace, half say finish him. No-one is for vassalising. At least we can rule that out. After razing the copper city, The army will rally on our border with Joao, to wait for Astro and cats. As for Shaka's extra cities... I'm not sure if he'll still offer us a city for peace after we raze one. I'll see what happens.
Currently we have Mesix and culdeus for continuing the war, and WT and Blubmuz for peace. Balth, gb, and berserks, perhaps I missed your opinions. I think the idea that speeding up astro to help the economy is a good one, and so am for peace, but it would not take much to finish Shaka, imo. However, will 10 turns help him organise a good defence? I think not. It will certainly help us - 1. Concentrate on astro. 2. Get some cats in stacks. Also he won't know anyone OS (have to check this), so there should be no diplo issues, except Joao, who will be dead soon anyway.
trades: Trades for feudalism are CS+65, mach+150, compass+CoL+155. We could put a turn or 2 into it to reduce the cash component? I notice our trade routes with Joao are non existant due to the lack of 1 road to the SW of Ulundi. This will be rectified May as well.
I still am for trading to increase world tech pace, but we can hold off trades for the moment, in case we decide to attack Gandhi first. In any case feudalism is not a priority, and other AI should get it soon enough.. Trade for happy resources.
demands: No doubt we'll get some for techs. I'm not sure to approach these... we need to decide who our friends are. I'm all for letting Gandhi be our builder. We still haven't addressed this. If we're conquering right to left, it makes sense to accede to Pericles, etc, for techs, and not Gandhi, etc. Again, this hinges on our general strategy. We shouldn't get any stop tradings or start wars - no, obviously.
Play until astro.
cities:
5th - (market) granary, baray, (colosseum - they are so cheap for us, I'll decide ingame if it'd be useful for another happy right away) (spy, missionary) research,
Parma - (lh) forge, cats
Marbles - forge (whip), (harbour),lh
Eng - (lh) (colosseum, monastery, temple, market) It depends on what whether we want workshops - I suppose a baray would be useful. Any other suggestions?
Stoney - (lh) granary, court
uMgu... to be renamed! - (lib) granary - this place has NO production. Perhaps just slow build/whip for cash buildings ie market, harbour.
Ulundi - (lib) granary, court
Nobamba - (lib)
workers: Who says we have too many workers? - transport all to the mainland. Concentrate on cottaging the capital and Ulundi. Secondary tasks are the farm link to the gl NW of Parma, farm to uMgu's rice, the road to Joao, the jungle.
war: Take out copper city. Half of us say peace, half say finish him. No-one is for vassalising. At least we can rule that out. After razing the copper city, The army will rally on our border with Joao, to wait for Astro and cats. As for Shaka's extra cities... I'm not sure if he'll still offer us a city for peace after we raze one. I'll see what happens.
Currently we have Mesix and culdeus for continuing the war, and WT and Blubmuz for peace. Balth, gb, and berserks, perhaps I missed your opinions. I think the idea that speeding up astro to help the economy is a good one, and so am for peace, but it would not take much to finish Shaka, imo. However, will 10 turns help him organise a good defence? I think not. It will certainly help us - 1. Concentrate on astro. 2. Get some cats in stacks. Also he won't know anyone OS (have to check this), so there should be no diplo issues, except Joao, who will be dead soon anyway.
trades: Trades for feudalism are CS+65, mach+150, compass+CoL+155. We could put a turn or 2 into it to reduce the cash component? I notice our trade routes with Joao are non existant due to the lack of 1 road to the SW of Ulundi. This will be rectified May as well.
I still am for trading to increase world tech pace, but we can hold off trades for the moment, in case we decide to attack Gandhi first. In any case feudalism is not a priority, and other AI should get it soon enough.. Trade for happy resources.
demands: No doubt we'll get some for techs. I'm not sure to approach these... we need to decide who our friends are. I'm all for letting Gandhi be our builder. We still haven't addressed this. If we're conquering right to left, it makes sense to accede to Pericles, etc, for techs, and not Gandhi, etc. Again, this hinges on our general strategy. We shouldn't get any stop tradings or start wars - no, obviously.
MacBalt
Learnéd Fool
I agree. @WT: Why prioritize a lighthouse and granary now, 10 turns from Astro? The harbor starts paying off in 4 turns. Granary can be up in 4 turns just prior to Astro -- either interrupting the forge or following it. Is a lighthouse even worth an 8 turn investment until after these three builds? It looks to me like Marbles already has good enough growth potential to get it going after Astro.
Yes. We ought to go right at Joao as quickly as possible, IMHO.
Hmmm... I don't understand this. We've got one great medic. Do we really need to burn another Great General on this? And why shouldn't the capital be a military production city? I'd really prefer to settle that GG (but only if we know we'll be using his city for producing military units -- obviously
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