Harbourboy
Deity
Why not scout to gold hill first then?
SGOTM 08 - Geezers
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
erikthecelt
Old, Geezer, Unoriginal
Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
That's what erik & AgedOne suggested. Now that I understand erik's reasoning I agree with sending the scout tothe gold hill initially.
EDIT: 2000 posts
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Harbourboy
Deity
Is that an agreed first move for now then?
Misotu
King
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2006
- Messages
- 934
Hi, just checking in again. I have had a chance to play a couple of times on the test game so I just wanted to post some initial, maybe not helpful thoughts. I played two games, neither to conclusion, taking two different strategies.
On the first game, I went for wonders and managed to build a whole load pretty easily, including the Pyramids, the Oracle which gave me bureaucracy and the Parthenon plus six others and a couple of national items, all before around 100BC. I was playing casually just to get a feel, so it could have been done much better, but the indication is that wonders are easy to build at this level. GPs are significant in this game, and you get lots of them if you build loads of wonders in the capital - engineers are great for obvious reasons and then priests for the shrines, extra techs and income. But on the Wonder route I had no clear victory option other than diplomatic, religious or space. To achieve space would require a short war to gain extra cities simply to build space-ship parts, since the wonder path penalised expansion. I don't know whether the diplomatic victory would be possible, as we don't know the opponents and their civic preferences, but a diplo victory can be achieved relatively early, with relatively few cities which means that the capital and maybe one or two others could be devoted to wonders while researching as long as the power graph and good relations were maintained. The AI researches slowly. I'm just, er, Wondering about that. Conquest/dom as an approach has many advantages but I'm not good enough at it to maintain research and alternative production eg wonders if they are not capturable, so I can't comment on that.
On the second game, I went for conquest. This went well, but I built no wonders and the AI was *very* slow to build any wonders, so no wonders captured. Those that were built were far away and the dates were rubbish ... by 1AD the AIs between them had built only 4 wonders, despite having the necessary techs well in advance. It wasn't obvious to me how to encourage them to build more wonders, but maybe other people with more experience of BtS might have suggestions?
Almost every AI city was built on a hill, which was very expensive in terms of units - pretty much 2 for 1 on every conquest, averaged out, and some were much worse. I had iron, copper and horse and a good range of units. Nevertheless, the result was that all production was required for units, nothing left to sneak in a few wonders. And then, of course, my research was so slow because of the unit support costs. Aaargh. Catapults, for starters, and preferably trebuchet, seemed to me to be a requirement for this game. On the other hand, I'm a rubbish militarist so take that with a pinch of salt
I would recommend against settling on the gold, because my very early experiments indicate, I think, that working the gold is a requirement for this game, no matter which route is chosen. But I might be totally wrong about that
The initial scout move is important but I think, before playing a single turn, we should consider the long-term strategy and play a few more practice games. Strategically, this is a very complicated game and the first 30 turns are critical. We shouldn't start before we know where we're going! Building wonders and conquest are diametrically opposed in terms of resource, so it's a real challenge to work out how to tackle this. Frankly, I have no idea at all, at the moment, as to how I would tackle this most effectively as a single player. I think I need to play a few more practice games to see how things pan out - it's a really knotty problem!
Anyway, you know, this is just my first succession game so I don't have your experience. :humble:
On the first game, I went for wonders and managed to build a whole load pretty easily, including the Pyramids, the Oracle which gave me bureaucracy and the Parthenon plus six others and a couple of national items, all before around 100BC. I was playing casually just to get a feel, so it could have been done much better, but the indication is that wonders are easy to build at this level. GPs are significant in this game, and you get lots of them if you build loads of wonders in the capital - engineers are great for obvious reasons and then priests for the shrines, extra techs and income. But on the Wonder route I had no clear victory option other than diplomatic, religious or space. To achieve space would require a short war to gain extra cities simply to build space-ship parts, since the wonder path penalised expansion. I don't know whether the diplomatic victory would be possible, as we don't know the opponents and their civic preferences, but a diplo victory can be achieved relatively early, with relatively few cities which means that the capital and maybe one or two others could be devoted to wonders while researching as long as the power graph and good relations were maintained. The AI researches slowly. I'm just, er, Wondering about that. Conquest/dom as an approach has many advantages but I'm not good enough at it to maintain research and alternative production eg wonders if they are not capturable, so I can't comment on that.
On the second game, I went for conquest. This went well, but I built no wonders and the AI was *very* slow to build any wonders, so no wonders captured. Those that were built were far away and the dates were rubbish ... by 1AD the AIs between them had built only 4 wonders, despite having the necessary techs well in advance. It wasn't obvious to me how to encourage them to build more wonders, but maybe other people with more experience of BtS might have suggestions?
Almost every AI city was built on a hill, which was very expensive in terms of units - pretty much 2 for 1 on every conquest, averaged out, and some were much worse. I had iron, copper and horse and a good range of units. Nevertheless, the result was that all production was required for units, nothing left to sneak in a few wonders. And then, of course, my research was so slow because of the unit support costs. Aaargh. Catapults, for starters, and preferably trebuchet, seemed to me to be a requirement for this game. On the other hand, I'm a rubbish militarist so take that with a pinch of salt
I would recommend against settling on the gold, because my very early experiments indicate, I think, that working the gold is a requirement for this game, no matter which route is chosen. But I might be totally wrong about that
The initial scout move is important but I think, before playing a single turn, we should consider the long-term strategy and play a few more practice games. Strategically, this is a very complicated game and the first 30 turns are critical. We shouldn't start before we know where we're going! Building wonders and conquest are diametrically opposed in terms of resource, so it's a real challenge to work out how to tackle this. Frankly, I have no idea at all, at the moment, as to how I would tackle this most effectively as a single player. I think I need to play a few more practice games to see how things pan out - it's a really knotty problem!
Anyway, you know, this is just my first succession game so I don't have your experience. :humble:
Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
Only of some of the team. I think we really want agreement from the entire team before we start moving units. It's interesting to note that no other team has posted a save to the progress website so we don't need to hurry for the sake of it.
Don't worry about that, your suggestions are as valid as the rest of ours.
erikthecelt
Old, Geezer, Unoriginal
All very good points Misotu 
, I have been having second thoughts about the victory condition as well. Religious does seem to be a good choice for VC in this set up. I have also noted the slow build of wonders by the AI in BTS compared to prior versions. The opponents will make a difference though, there are some keen builders with IND. Scouting early will help make the decision for us on the VC a little easier. I expect a mix of PROT and IND leaders to keep things interesting.
The early game for me is all about developing the capital and getting out a couple of cities. I generally don't worry about the VC until I've settled and know a little about what I'm up against. We also tend to take longer on a game so we can't afford too many delays, the Geezers can only move slowly, what with our collective age and all
. We also don't generally play a lot of practise games which may be why we our results aren't the best
I am thinking that an early religious path generating a G. Prophet or two will probably be the leading strategy (except for Murky who just love to war
).
We need to hear from The-Hawk and markh on this topic
.
, I have been having second thoughts about the victory condition as well. Religious does seem to be a good choice for VC in this set up. I have also noted the slow build of wonders by the AI in BTS compared to prior versions. The opponents will make a difference though, there are some keen builders with IND. Scouting early will help make the decision for us on the VC a little easier. I expect a mix of PROT and IND leaders to keep things interesting.The early game for me is all about developing the capital and getting out a couple of cities. I generally don't worry about the VC until I've settled and know a little about what I'm up against. We also tend to take longer on a game so we can't afford too many delays, the Geezers can only move slowly, what with our collective age and all
. We also don't generally play a lot of practise games which may be why we our results aren't the best I am thinking that an early religious path generating a G. Prophet or two will probably be the leading strategy (except for Murky who just love to war
).We need to hear from The-Hawk and markh on this topic
.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
OK, had some network problems today, but Im back in the saddle. Ive been thinking about this a bit, here is a list of some decisions we will need to make:
1) The laurels go to the team with the best wonder-to-turns ratio. Im not sure if we should focus on increasing the numerator or decreasing the denominator. We need to do some analysis of availability and potential timing of wonders to find the optimum target end date. For example, a very fast win (say conquest) with a decent number of early wonders might beat a slow win with a large number of wonders. We need to see if there a natural gap in the timeline of wonder building where the next available wonder is not worth the turns to research and build it.
2) Which victory condition? My initial reaction was definitely dom or conquest. Two reasons: they are the fastest victories and we can steal wonders. However, based on Misotus test and the fact this is big-and-small, maybe this is not so definite. Actually finishing a military conquest might take a long time (AIs building cities on small islands). I suspect the answer to this question will depend on the answer to the first question. Our ultimate victory condition may depend on our target end date.
3) Do we build wonders, or let AIs build them. My first reaction was the latter, but again based on Misotus test, maybe this is wrong. It may be that Monarch is too low level to get enough help from the AIs. If we want AIs to build them, we should be gifting techs to get them started sooner.
4) Do we go for early religions? Im not sure about this one. If we found the religions, we will need to spawn enough GPs to build the shrines. We might be better off letting the AIs build the religions and shrines. This would let us go for GSs for faster tech. If we go for early religions, will that stifle our tech pace?
1) The laurels go to the team with the best wonder-to-turns ratio. Im not sure if we should focus on increasing the numerator or decreasing the denominator. We need to do some analysis of availability and potential timing of wonders to find the optimum target end date. For example, a very fast win (say conquest) with a decent number of early wonders might beat a slow win with a large number of wonders. We need to see if there a natural gap in the timeline of wonder building where the next available wonder is not worth the turns to research and build it.
2) Which victory condition? My initial reaction was definitely dom or conquest. Two reasons: they are the fastest victories and we can steal wonders. However, based on Misotus test and the fact this is big-and-small, maybe this is not so definite. Actually finishing a military conquest might take a long time (AIs building cities on small islands). I suspect the answer to this question will depend on the answer to the first question. Our ultimate victory condition may depend on our target end date.
3) Do we build wonders, or let AIs build them. My first reaction was the latter, but again based on Misotus test, maybe this is wrong. It may be that Monarch is too low level to get enough help from the AIs. If we want AIs to build them, we should be gifting techs to get them started sooner.
4) Do we go for early religions? Im not sure about this one. If we found the religions, we will need to spawn enough GPs to build the shrines. We might be better off letting the AIs build the religions and shrines. This would let us go for GSs for faster tech. If we go for early religions, will that stifle our tech pace?
Harbourboy
Deity
Nice analysis, Misotu.
We probably need to get some views from Thrallia if we are choosing diplomacy, as that is an area he has done a lot of work on in the past.
Religious is an option, but it does require some precision and early focus, given the earliness of this victory condition. You really need to decide which religion you're going to target because this condition is impossibly difficult if you choose the wrong religion and time its spread incorrectly. So if we're going to go for that, we need to decide early.
We probably need to do some simple maths on wonder points divided by finishing time to assess the likely outcomes of various approaches generally.
We probably need to get some views from Thrallia if we are choosing diplomacy, as that is an area he has done a lot of work on in the past.
Religious is an option, but it does require some precision and early focus, given the earliness of this victory condition. You really need to decide which religion you're going to target because this condition is impossibly difficult if you choose the wrong religion and time its spread incorrectly. So if we're going to go for that, we need to decide early.
We probably need to do some simple maths on wonder points divided by finishing time to assess the likely outcomes of various approaches generally.
erikthecelt
Old, Geezer, Unoriginal
Sample Table (I am working on this now - any comments on other info to include?)
Wonder Tech
resource
Stonehenge Myst 120 stone
GreatLighthouse Sailing 200
Moai Statues Sailing 250 stone
Temple of Artemis Poly 350 marble
Did a little test - settling on the cows produces a WB and worker by turn 17 vs turn 25 settling in place or on the other side of the cows. It also allows quick access to both clams and fish.
Wonder Tech
resource Stonehenge Myst 120 stone
GreatLighthouse Sailing 200
Moai Statues Sailing 250 stone
Temple of Artemis Poly 350 marble
Did a little test - settling on the cows produces a WB and worker by turn 17 vs turn 25 settling in place or on the other side of the cows. It also allows quick access to both clams and fish.
AgedOne
Emperor
A bit more research to add to the pot.
I played a few test games (all on the same map, so some things may be skewed)
Here's when the wonders tended to go if I let the AI build them:
Stonehenge: T40, T65
Gt Wall: T66, T77
Gt Lighthouse: T80, T113
Pyramids: No-one else built it by 0AD!! I managed it comfortably on T85.
Oracle: T77, T87
Temple of Artemis: T101
All confirms what Misotu has reported from her tests: the AI are very sluggish at getting those Wonders built.
We're just going to have to build a lot of the things ourselves, it seems, and then get the game finished as early as possible, to improve our wonder-to-turns ratio, as The-Hawk was saying.
A couple of other timings I noted:
First animals appeared: T10
First barbarians spotted: T54
Buddhism went T16, T17
Hinduism went T19, T23
Judaism went T56, T73
I played a few test games (all on the same map, so some things may be skewed)
Here's when the wonders tended to go if I let the AI build them:
Stonehenge: T40, T65
Gt Wall: T66, T77
Gt Lighthouse: T80, T113
Pyramids: No-one else built it by 0AD!! I managed it comfortably on T85.
Oracle: T77, T87
Temple of Artemis: T101
All confirms what Misotu has reported from her tests: the AI are very sluggish at getting those Wonders built.
We're just going to have to build a lot of the things ourselves, it seems, and then get the game finished as early as possible, to improve our wonder-to-turns ratio, as The-Hawk was saying.
A couple of other timings I noted:
First animals appeared: T10
First barbarians spotted: T54
Buddhism went T16, T17
Hinduism went T19, T23
Judaism went T56, T73
erikthecelt
Old, Geezer, Unoriginal
Harbourboy
Deity
OK, so if we build lots of wonders, won't that give us lots of:
- wonder benefits;
- GP points; and
- culture?
Does any of that point us toward likely victory conditions?
- wonder benefits;
- GP points; and
- culture?
Does any of that point us toward likely victory conditions?
Sam_Yeager
Another Original Geezer
Thanks for this erik. However the spreadsheet does not include National Wonders.
Your spreadsheet has 55 wonders (275 points) whereas 62 wonders are required for 310 points.
I think it is a given that we'll need astro for any victory condition.
I forgot this is BtS as well, I think that Religious Victories might be the best shot for an early victory condition.
@Hawk: The best gap I can think of is the gap between Medieval and Industrial wonders...Medieval wonders still use marble/stone/gold/copper and rarely cost more than 400-600 hammers, while Industrial ones often do not have resources for double speed, and usually cost 800+.
Conveniently enough, that gap is right around the point we'll likely be when we are able to get Astro and start working on winning the game, rather than just wonder-building.
Stonehenge__________Myst ______120__stone
Great Lighthouse _____Sailing_____200
Moai Statues_________Sailing_____250__stone
Temple of Artemis ____Poly ______350__marble
Pyramids ____________Masonry ___500__stone
Great Wall ___________Masonry ___250__stone
Oracle ______________Priesthood _150__marble
Colossus ____________MetalC ____250__copper
Pathenon ____________Aesthetics _400__marble
Statue of Zeus _______Aesthetics _300__ivory
Swedagon Paya _______Aesthetics _450__gold
Hanging Gardens ______Math _____300__stone
Heroic Epic __________Literature __200__marble
National Epic _________Literature __250__marble
Great Library _________Literature __350__marble
Mausoleum of Massolos Calendar ___450__marble
Globe Theatre ________Drama _____300
Notre Dame __________Engineering 550__stone
Chichen Itza _________CoL _______500__stone
Sistine Chapel ________Music _____600__marble
Angkor Wat __________Philosophy__500__stone
Hagia Sophia _________Theology___500__marble
Apostolic Palace ______Theology___400
Spiral Minaret ________Divine Right 500__stone
U of Sankore _________Paper_____ 550__stone
Hermitage ___________Nationalism_300__marble
Oxford ______________Education__400__stone
that list right there gives us 27 easy ones, I think going any farther in the tech tree, while helpful for winning the game, should be done as quickly as possible, as the wonders past these all take more than 2x as long to build.
I forgot this is BtS as well, I think that Religious Victories might be the best shot for an early victory condition.
@Hawk: The best gap I can think of is the gap between Medieval and Industrial wonders...Medieval wonders still use marble/stone/gold/copper and rarely cost more than 400-600 hammers, while Industrial ones often do not have resources for double speed, and usually cost 800+.
Conveniently enough, that gap is right around the point we'll likely be when we are able to get Astro and start working on winning the game, rather than just wonder-building.
Stonehenge__________Myst ______120__stone
Great Lighthouse _____Sailing_____200
Moai Statues_________Sailing_____250__stone
Temple of Artemis ____Poly ______350__marble
Pyramids ____________Masonry ___500__stone
Great Wall ___________Masonry ___250__stone
Oracle ______________Priesthood _150__marble
Colossus ____________MetalC ____250__copper
Pathenon ____________Aesthetics _400__marble
Statue of Zeus _______Aesthetics _300__ivory
Swedagon Paya _______Aesthetics _450__gold
Hanging Gardens ______Math _____300__stone
Heroic Epic __________Literature __200__marble
National Epic _________Literature __250__marble
Great Library _________Literature __350__marble
Mausoleum of Massolos Calendar ___450__marble
Globe Theatre ________Drama _____300
Notre Dame __________Engineering 550__stone
Chichen Itza _________CoL _______500__stone
Sistine Chapel ________Music _____600__marble
Angkor Wat __________Philosophy__500__stone
Hagia Sophia _________Theology___500__marble
Apostolic Palace ______Theology___400
Spiral Minaret ________Divine Right 500__stone
U of Sankore _________Paper_____ 550__stone
Hermitage ___________Nationalism_300__marble
Oxford ______________Education__400__stone
that list right there gives us 27 easy ones, I think going any farther in the tech tree, while helpful for winning the game, should be done as quickly as possible, as the wonders past these all take more than 2x as long to build.
Harbourboy
Deity
If we're seriously thinking of going religious, then we need a very precise plan. Religious can be fast, but it can take FOREVER if you stuff up the spread of the apostolic faith and some other AI spreads it too far within itself and you lose your voting power.
Erik, are you sure about your building times ? This is normal speed. You can build a worker in 15 when settling in place and work the cows. This would match with researching BW in 15 turns. You will get the worker in 12 if settling on the cows, although I would hate to give up the cows.
It is also my experience that the AIs were slow in building wonders, but this might change if there are industrial AIs in the game. In the test save I think there were none. However we should not gamble on that. I find it difficult to set a victory condition right now. If we are on the big continent dom/conquest should be possible quite fast. If we need ships to get to it I doubt that this condition is a good choice. I have no experience in religious victories, so I will not be of much help in that department.
Playing the test save I had no problems building a lot of wonders while expanding and building up military.
Religions were not an issue in my tests and I would not focus on getting one. If we go for a religious victory this might be different. I do not know.
It is also my experience that the AIs were slow in building wonders, but this might change if there are industrial AIs in the game. In the test save I think there were none. However we should not gamble on that. I find it difficult to set a victory condition right now. If we are on the big continent dom/conquest should be possible quite fast. If we need ships to get to it I doubt that this condition is a good choice. I have no experience in religious victories, so I will not be of much help in that department.
Playing the test save I had no problems building a lot of wonders while expanding and building up military.
Religions were not an issue in my tests and I would not focus on getting one. If we go for a religious victory this might be different. I do not know.
erikthecelt
Old, Geezer, Unoriginal
@Sam - the spreadsheet contains the National wonders, but not the religious shrines which also count. I will update the sheet later.
@markh - I did a worker / wb / resume worker build using each of the 3 start positions. The cow location means being able to put a WB on the fish for +1
instead of the clams.
The tech path was fishing/BW/ although BW can be deferred for Myst as we have no immediate need for either BW or AH if we settle the cows. Tech path then goes Fish/Sail/Myst/Poly/Priest for optimum path to wonders. Wheel is a possible insert into the path to keep the worker productive.
@markh - I did a worker / wb / resume worker build using each of the 3 start positions. The cow location means being able to put a WB on the fish for +1
instead of the clams.The tech path was fishing/BW/ although BW can be deferred for Myst as we have no immediate need for either BW or AH if we settle the cows. Tech path then goes Fish/Sail/Myst/Poly/Priest for optimum path to wonders. Wheel is a possible insert into the path to keep the worker productive.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
I'm guessing Thrallia is correct about Astro. Remember, this is a SG map by Gyathaar 
. I'll bet we are isolated on a small island, probably every tile in the FOW is a desert with a lion on it. No way it is a simple Monarch level walk in the park.
If we need Astro, then isn't religion victory a very difficult task? If AI's start taking Theology, then we might not be able to spread the religion. Also, religion and diplo might be hard given we want to capture any AI built wonders. We might make war with several AIs.
Erik, this spreadsheet is a great start, thanks for pulling it together. I'm planning to spend some time looking at it today.
. I'll bet we are isolated on a small island, probably every tile in the FOW is a desert with a lion on it. No way it is a simple Monarch level walk in the park.If we need Astro, then isn't religion victory a very difficult task? If AI's start taking Theology, then we might not be able to spread the religion. Also, religion and diplo might be hard given we want to capture any AI built wonders. We might make war with several AIs.
Erik, this spreadsheet is a great start, thanks for pulling it together
. I'm planning to spend some time looking at it today.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
RE: Location for city one. Why would we move from the spot we are on? Settling on a resource wastes the hammer/gold/food bonus of the resource (e.g. lose the hammers from the cows). We are on fresh water for health. All visible resources are in our BFC.
I'm for moving the scout to gold to take a look, but we will need to find something pretty spectacular to warrant a move.
By the way, whenever we get around to sending a boat to the fish, I'd like to divert it to scout the south of the marble island before it builds nets on the fish. If there is seafood to the south of the marble, then I'd vote for settling a second (or third) city on Marble island. With the fish S of the capital and another south of the marble island, it might make for a decent GP farm and give us the marble for wonders.
I'm for moving the scout to gold to take a look, but we will need to find something pretty spectacular to warrant a move.
By the way, whenever we get around to sending a boat to the fish, I'd like to divert it to scout the south of the marble island before it builds nets on the fish. If there is seafood to the south of the marble, then I'd vote for settling a second (or third) city on Marble island. With the fish S of the capital and another south of the marble island, it might make for a decent GP farm and give us the marble for wonders.
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