SGOTM 08 - Gypsy Kings

Munro · Jan 24, 2009

Thanks for the comments so far. Here's the rest of my PPP... I plan to play tomorrow lunchtime (about 20 hours from now) unless there are any really strong objections, and I'll play as many turns as seems sensible. (Maybe 20-30 depending on what if anything comes up) - again, unless anyone voices strong objections.

General thoughts and overall strategy

Since all the AI are on one big continent, should have no real problem capturing easily whichever cities we need to get the wonders.
And since we want to maximise chance of AI building a shrine, might as well let the AI found islam.
Note that GS currently gives 1959 beakers (compared to 2990 required for Astro) so no risk of 'wasting' beakers - we can bulb anytime if we want to.
Agree with hw that we need to focus on our military now, since otherwise we risk this being the limiting factor
That means maces, trebs, cats, galleons against joao (get started ASAP)
+ Muskets and currasiers (and maybe the first airships) against the first continental AI
Cottage economy as argued earlier

So with that in mind...

Techs

I think we will want state property quite soon after starting the continental invasion (due to overseas maintenance costs - and maintenance from joao's cities). But it would be good to take state property and the liberalism civics in the same golden age, which means we will probably want to use liberalism to take physics.

Waiting to use liberalism for radio will save us about 3000 beakers, but getting earlier physics gives other benefits (much earlier state property, earlier airships) and allows us to leave radio for later, and focus instead on teching towards earlier rifles / cavalary / cannons / iron works etc. Whereas getting earlier radio doesn't really help much except save us 3000 beakers (which would be spent very late in the game anyway).

So with that in mind, tech order would be:

Astro (galleons + overseas routes + resources)
Gunpowder > Military Tradition (to kick off continental military campaign)
Sci method > Communism & Liberalism & Physics (golden age, state property etc)
Chemistry > Steel & Military Science / Replaceable parts > Rifling

Diplomacy
No obvious incentive to trade much at this point, since I don't think tech rate will be the limiting factor for us, and keeping the AI backwards allows us to beat them with fewer resources... (Can pick up feudalism later once we have a chance to get guilds and maybe banking from trade).

DOW on Joao as soon as we have enough galleons / cats / trebs / maces to get going. (I think trebs will do just fine against the 'top defender' longbow in each city - certainly no need for airships).

Other

Use one of our GE on SoL as per my previous post
Use a GS to help bulb Astro as per my previous post
Ulundi is going to go all out working priests until we have Iron Works and / or at least 2-3 of the required 3-4 Prophets
It wouldn't hurt to spread confuciansim a little more, since we do have the shrine. Lower priority though behind military production.
I'm not planning to post detail city MM plans due to time constraints (and the number of cities we have)! But if anyone has any particular input just say.

Conquistador 63 · Jan 24, 2009

Thanks for rescuing us, Munro!

Everything in your PPP makes perfect sense to me. On tech trade, we could get Feud+70g+map from Joao for Philo/Lit. I don't believe these techs would help him much if we're about to declare on him anyways. But if it doesn't look a wise move, never mind - we can't afford to debate the little details right now.

Ronnie1 · Jan 24, 2009

Conquistador 63 said:
Thanks for rescuing us, Munro!
Everything in your PPP makes perfect sense to me. On tech trade, we could get Feud+70g+map from Joao for Philo/Lit. I don't believe these techs would help him much if we're about to declare on him anyways. But if it doesn't look a wise move, never mind - we can't afford to debate the little details right now.

But we might as well get what we can from him before we DoW, at least that part makes sense to me....

And YES, THANK YOU MUNRO, for taking charge of this turnset!!!!!!!!!!!

Munro · Jan 24, 2009

Yes, good point about Joao - I'll see what techs I can get from him before we DOW.

oyzar · Jan 24, 2009

Great seing this finally going active again.

adrianj · Jan 25, 2009

Yay, Action!

About Ulundi - could throw in a temple in its build queue for the extra priest. Maybe followed by a confucian academy for an extra 2...

Ideally Ulundi would run only engineers and priests.

Munro · Jan 26, 2009

I've started, but only played a few turns so far (some interruptions) so I'll finish the turnset tomorrow eve unless anyone objects. In the meantime, I've uploaded a mid-point save in case anyone wants to take a look.

Main points of interest so far:

played 7 turns so far
Ulundi popped a GS (unfortunate; we were about 55% for a prophet)
bulbed / researched Astro; researched gunpowder; built oxford uni
Ulundi built a temple (good suggestion aj) and now is working on SoL; needs about 9-10 turns of hammers before we can GE rush it
gandhi and augustus so far have ALMOST ALL the wonders between them - and they're close to where our troops will be in portugal - so they're natural targets
pericles and boudacia have no wonders at all yet
therefore I've OB'd (and traded) with boudacia, charlemagne, augustus and ghandi; we have some healthy trade routes and lots of resources
high level plan is to bribe charlemagne into war with augustus and / or gandhi when the time comes to make things even easier
our military capacity was really poor (and our teching very fast); I've whipped quite heavily in some cities and built some mines.. now the troops are coming but we already have gunpowder (after 7 turns of playing) and currassiers will be in another 3 turns... so the war against joao will be on horseback after all
we lost a caravel defending with 97% odds, to a barb galley... !

Basically all going to plan though. More detailed updates after I finish the turnset tomorrow (if that's still ok with everyone).

Spoiler :

adrianj · Jan 26, 2009

Cool

Is now a good time to launch a GAge? We have an extra scientist - so perhaps the future 3 person golden age is on the cards.

Eg, trigger one off right now (scientist + artist) - revolution to emancipation + theocracy.
Trigger the next after communism (spy + merchant + scientist) - revolution to State Property.

I think right now is an excellent time since
1) speeds up the war effort
2) Pacifism will start to cost us soon, and +2 exp from theocracy is nice
3) we have a lot of cottages ready to grow under emancipation
4) Ulundi will build SoL faster

To control which great people are used up, have the two meet in uMgung.

Munro · Jan 26, 2009

No, I already used a GS for bulbing astro, so we're at least one great person short for an extra golden age (and maybe two, if the AI builds no more shrines for us).

However, it may be best to trigger the golden age soon anyway, as we are not at all far from communism, and maintenance is already costing us quite a lot (-10 :gold:

in many cities, plus inflation), plus all the other reasons you list above.

Obviously we can trigger it a bit before we get communism - just need to make sure we are still in a GA when we finish researching it, so we can end up in state property at the end.

I will be playing more tonight and should post with a final update on the turnset later this evening.

Ronnie1 · Jan 26, 2009

Nice job Munro....keep it going!

oyzar · Jan 27, 2009

We need to trade more for gold, leting ghandi have 160 gold without trading for it seems rather useless... The AI can't keep up with our tech pace anyways, so better to have them feeding us gold...

Munro · Jan 27, 2009

Yes, good point about the gold. I've finished my turnset now and did take that on board during the second half.

Final save is here: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm8/Gypsy_Kings_SG008_AD1480_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

HOF autolog (1 of 3):

Spoiler :

Munro · Jan 27, 2009

HOF autolog (2 of 3)

Spoiler :

Munro · Jan 27, 2009

HOF autolog (3 of 3)

Spoiler :

Ronnie1 · Jan 27, 2009

Great set Munro!!!

Who can play next??????

adrianj · Jan 27, 2009

I *can* play next... if I can be trusted :mischief:

Edit: In all honesty - I think the team could do better than me playing at such a crucial time. I have very very little experience at intercontinental wars. I usually shoot for peaceful diplo/cultural/space victories in my games.

Munro · Jan 27, 2009

Well, I played about 25 turns up until the end of the Joao war. (I haven't actually ended the war yet but he is ready to capitulate and give us his his last remaining extra city).

All went more or less according to plan, with the main exception being that our military production was so slow at the beginning that by the time I had built some barracks and mine improvements, and started to crank out units, we already had muskets and currassiers, so that's mostly what the war was fought with (with some cannons and cavalary towards the very end).

In total, we popped one Great Prophet and two (unwanted) Great Scientists (bulbed on Astro and Sci. Method) but Gandhi also built the christrian shrine for us, so we're still just about on track. We also got all the free great people (Physics GS, Communism GSpy - used on Golden Age with our extra Great Artist, and Economics GM).

All the world wonders we don't have are still in India and Rome, with the exception of 1 in the HRE, and 1 (future shrine) in Greece. Augustus is leading the AI in score and techs, and has vassalized Pericles. Gandhi is our obvious next target as he doesn't even have gunpowder yet, and is closest to us. In terms of diplomacy, I have been trading quite a lot for cash as oyzar suggested (we were able to run at 100% science almost every turn) although unfortunately both Augustus and Charlemange have adopted mercanilism (no foreign trade routes) despite my gifting them economics.

Charlemagne will be a target eventually (since he has at least one wonder, and we probably need his land as well to hit the domination target) but he's quite backward as usual, and he also will DOW on another AI when he's just pleased with us (unlike Boudica who needs to be friendly with us, for example) so I'm preparing him to be a war ally for us in the war against Gandhi. Not that we particularly need the help, but it may help things go quicker. (Do we actually want to do this or will the pillaging just be a pain)? The other alternative might be to have Charlemagne and Augustus fight each other while we take out Gandhi, to ****** them both a little bit and to let Augustus use up his huge 20 unit stack in advance of his war with us...

we popped a couple of Great Generals also. One was used for our currassier / cavalary super-medic. The other is heading to Nobamba, which I've specialized as one of several miltary cities (and the only one with a dry dock) so that's probably as good a place as any for him to settle. Since we don't have fedualism, theocracy or anything like that, the extra 2XP will be really useful for land and sea units alike.

In techs, we researched:

astro (part bulb) > gunpowder > military tradition > sci. method (part bulb) > liberalism (physics) > communism (golden age) > chemistry > steel > (trade for feud and guilds) > banking > replaceable parts > economics > rifling > steam power (2 turns)

The military campaign went fine. Galleons did speed things up (mainly moving the trebs and occasional maces and muskets about). I made a couple of unforced errors but no serious consequences. Joao spammed about 10-15 Carracks once he had optics, which were easy bait for our airships, galleons and frigates.

So... we're well placed now to
- take peace with Joao (in exchange for that city - the furs are worth good cash to trade with the AI)
- but I don't think we want capitulation; we may want to kill him at the end for the land, and in the meantime his being on 'our team' could mess up our relations with the AI
- kill Gandhi ASAP (and probably brutally fast)
- then probably move onto Augustus (a tougher fight, but probably not by much)
- finish up with HRE and Greek land as required to make up the dom. limit
- we've still only played 208 turns... and we're teching about one tech every 2-3 turns, so we're making good progress

Anyway.. take a look at the save and let's get the discussion going.

Who's up next? You've got 24 hours to post a got it!

Conquistador 63 · Jan 27, 2009

A few assorted comments from a MSN conversation for future reference...

Spoiler :

adrianj · Jan 27, 2009

I've got it. I'll post a PPP in a few hours hopefully.

Initial thoughts:

As C63 pointed out - losing to an AP vote would be amazingly bad.
Currently the only civ that doesn't have the AP religion (Hindu) is Joao. However, he is also a Confucian running Theocracy = no non-state religion spread. So for as long as that is still the case we are safe from the AP ending the game. Obviously this requires Joao to remain alive for the time being.

The only way to permanently remove the threat is to raze the AP city (Cumae). This isn't an ideal solution for this game. There are some alternatives:

* Bribe (force with spy?) everyone into some other state religion or Free Religion.
* Take the AP city ourselves as well as enough other Hindu cities to kill the vote ourselves.
* Get Ghandi to hate Augustus. Ghandi and Augustus have the most Hindu cities - so long as they are at odds the vote will never go through.
* Gift any of our own cities infected with Hinduism to someone else, eg, a vassal like Joao. Currently this is just kwadukuza, but as it spreads the problem will get worse (although we could switch back to Theocracy to prevent any more spread).
* Keep Joao as a Confucian Theocrat. Spread Confucianism to his remaining city and then keep a spy handy at all times to force him into Theocracy. Of course, the spy only gets that option if we are in Theocracy ourselves...
* Vassalize everyone as quick as possible!

Both Ghandi and Augustus could potentially research Rifling. Given that Augustus is a threat with the AP, it seems we should take him out now before he has rifles.

I think the quickest way to end this is to capture the relevant cities that have wonders and then vassalize. Being careful not to go over the dom limit with each new vassal until we are ready.

adrianj · Jan 27, 2009

PPP

Take peace with Joao for his last city. This ensures (in the short term at least) no Religious diplo win for Augustus:

Prepare for war with Augustus
* Rebase a few airships to Indian cities to run recon missions.
* Stack 1 - mostly defensive units. Drop in Aryan and advance up to the jungles. Hopefully attract Ceasar's stacks.
* Stack 2 - Mix of units to land a few turns later by Cumae and take the city.
* All up have approx 8 full galleons for each stack = 24 units. Stack 1 mix something like 8 MG, 8 gunpowder, 8 mounted. Stack 2 8 siege, 8 gunpowder, 8 mounted.
* Upgrade gunpowder, siege and mounted units.

Currently have 16 mounted units, 7 gunpowder, 15 siege and 2 galleons.We need many more galleons and a few frigates for support, followed by rifles, MG and infantry.

City Management:
Ulundi running as many priests and engineers as possible.
Yaso building wonders as they become available (eg, Kremlin right now)
Commerce cities build +% commerce buildings and growth where appropraite (Hari, NIC, nagara Jay, Harappan, Jayend)
All others build granary -> forge -> barracks -> *units.
Nobamba specialising in ships.

Tech path:
Steam -> Railroad (for MGs) -> Electricity -> Radio -> Mass Media.

I'll start amassing the units at kwaDuk and Braga.

I'm not sure what to do about getting gold from the AI. Are we selling techs for very cheap? That doesn't seem right to me - only improving their defenses. Things like Divine Right, Astro, Liberalism and Economics I'll sell, but maybe no further than that. I think I get it now. Espionage points are being invested in the cheaper leaders to show us their research. I'll sell them techs when they are close to finishing it themselves, or sell non-military techs if there is decent money to be made.

I'll finish my turnset before the ships leave port (before any DoW).

The biggest question is do we aim for Ceasar first or Ghandi? Ghandi could be dead or at least vassalized very quickly. He has 3 cities we need (Delhi, Vijayanagara and Bombay) 2 of which are coastal and could be taken within a turn or 2 of DoW. We even have enough units to do it right now if need be.
Also provides a nice base for our airships to recon and attack Ceasar.

Edit: Thought about the espionage thing. No need to invest in Ceasar. Still consider Ghandi first. Learnt about judicious tech selling. Corrected tech path to not include Assembly Line which requires Corporation.

SGOTM 08 - Gypsy Kings

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