TheArchduke
Feeling at home..
Well, I did my turnset already. Jabah you wanna go second?
SGOTM 08 - The Real Ms. Beyond
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Jabah
Emperor
I could play up to BW now since it seems to be prettu straight forward and report.
Got it
Got it
Jabah
Emperor
T21 - 3160
Shaka has horse in 3rd ring
change citizen to gold+forrest hill
t22 - 3120
EP ratio shaka25/20
Somehow he has 5EP/t
T23 - 3080
Shaka culture is preventing the scout to go North
pasture done - change citizen from forrest to pasture. (growth in 8t / WB in 2t)
T24 - 3040
Scout see a panther (2t away) and a hut. He is safe in forrest jungle
T25
WB -> WB
grow and WB at the same time (6t)
get52g from hut
T27
Scout (in jungle) next to lion and see hut further away
T28
BW done (put research to Wheel for now)
Bad news
Scout killed by lion (21% odd)
Good news
We have copper and the worker is already mining it (ready in 2t, but need road to connect therefore the Wheel).
Save and exit
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm8/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG008_BC2880_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Added
Shaka is having 57/44 EP toward us !!!
Shaka has horse in 3rd ring
change citizen to gold+forrest hill
t22 - 3120
EP ratio shaka25/20
Somehow he has 5EP/t
T23 - 3080
Shaka culture is preventing the scout to go North
pasture done - change citizen from forrest to pasture. (growth in 8t / WB in 2t)
T24 - 3040
Scout see a panther (2t away) and a hut. He is safe in forrest jungle
T25
WB -> WB
grow and WB at the same time (6t)
get52g from hut
T27
Scout (in jungle) next to lion and see hut further away
T28
BW done (put research to Wheel for now)
Bad news
Scout killed by lion (21% odd)
Good news
We have copper and the worker is already mining it (ready in 2t, but need road to connect therefore the Wheel).
Save and exit
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm8/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG008_BC2880_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Added
Shaka is having 57/44 EP toward us !!!
Spoiler autolog :
Attachments
Jabah
Emperor
Shaka is far away, but I think we should build a cheap warrior or 2 next (while we can) for MP anyway.
Then maybe a 3rd WB while growing to size4 before settler (destination to be decided later but I like marble island first).
Tech-wise
The wheel then sailing then masonry ?
Then maybe a 3rd WB while growing to size4 before settler (destination to be decided later but I like marble island first).
Tech-wise
The wheel then sailing then masonry ?
TheArchduke
Feeling at home..
Hmm, Shaka only so far, no other neighbours.
I would not like to be all alone with Shaka and he is quite near. I would suggest we consider an axerush to rid ourselves of a troublesome neighbour and get a 2nd decent city site. What does the team think?
I would not like to be all alone with Shaka and he is quite near. I would suggest we consider an axerush to rid ourselves of a troublesome neighbour and get a 2nd decent city site. What does the team think?
Jabah
Emperor
I am not too sure about how to deal with Shaka. (especially in SGOTM - in single game, rushing him would be 100% right but here I am afraid that could be one of the thing that will make a difference between teams)
On one hand, he will make trouble if left alone with us, but on the other hand, keeping him alive longer is probably better for our long term aims. (he will help us tech - via the known tech research bonus at least- he might give us a few religions and Wonders, he will give us a few trade), also killing him later might cost us less and he might settle a few cities for us.
We need to know more about Shaka surroundings (metal, sea access...) to know what to expect - maybe build 2 axes go there, if a worker could be captured, declare and see. (for now Shaka has not revolted to Slavery during my turn)
On one hand, he will make trouble if left alone with us, but on the other hand, keeping him alive longer is probably better for our long term aims. (he will help us tech - via the known tech research bonus at least- he might give us a few religions and Wonders, he will give us a few trade), also killing him later might cost us less and he might settle a few cities for us.
We need to know more about Shaka surroundings (metal, sea access...) to know what to expect - maybe build 2 axes go there, if a worker could be captured, declare and see. (for now Shaka has not revolted to Slavery during my turn)
TheArchduke
Feeling at home..
Well, any other leader, but Shaka is a nutcase, he will not provide us with wonders or help us too much with tech. I think he is a liability we should get rid of asap.
Perhaps with a 2nd city (pig production city and then nonstop axeman production. At least our capital is food rich enough.
Don´t forget this is only monarch after all. Pre 1000 BC the AI is a walkover.
Perhaps with a 2nd city (pig production city and then nonstop axeman production. At least our capital is food rich enough.
Don´t forget this is only monarch after all. Pre 1000 BC the AI is a walkover.
orb
Warlord
Great news about the copper.
Normally, given that we have the right resource, my vote would be to get rid of Shaka as soon as possible. (chop/whip an Axe stack.) - We have a lot of forest and will soon have a lot of food production.
But....
We are supposed to be generating wonder points to win the game. - All the time that we build axes in our first city the rest of the world will be expanding and ultimately out competing us.
Therefore I'm thinking we need to delay our attack on Shaka until after city2 has been established.
We need to build a few axe's just to raise our military strength.
While we explore the world with a WB and tech towards Oracle.
As for marble island...Doesn't look great at the moment but the resource would help. - Can the WB circle the island to look for more fish food?
Also....I would quite often target Monothesism at this point to get the organised bonus to help compete at Monarch level...but we need the wonder techs first I think.
Does anyone have a tech route in mind?
Normally, given that we have the right resource, my vote would be to get rid of Shaka as soon as possible. (chop/whip an Axe stack.) - We have a lot of forest and will soon have a lot of food production.
But....
We are supposed to be generating wonder points to win the game. - All the time that we build axes in our first city the rest of the world will be expanding and ultimately out competing us.
Therefore I'm thinking we need to delay our attack on Shaka until after city2 has been established.
We need to build a few axe's just to raise our military strength.
While we explore the world with a WB and tech towards Oracle.
As for marble island...Doesn't look great at the moment but the resource would help. - Can the WB circle the island to look for more fish food?
Also....I would quite often target Monothesism at this point to get the organised bonus to help compete at Monarch level...but we need the wonder techs first I think.
Does anyone have a tech route in mind?
gOng_civ'
Chieftain
Case Shaka: IMO we need at least 2 axemans and galley until we want to beat Shaka quickly...
Then we must latest do settler or/and first wonder. And then we need new scout what could go with the galley to search islands over the seas to get some good stuff from huts and find new civilizations.
Tech route thinking; finishing of wheel - sailing - masonry - mysticism (Stonehenge- isn't it too late to try to finish it) - meditation - Priesthood - polytheism - (Writing/Monotheism/?) - Literature/Code of laws - iron working/aesthetics .... ???
Then we must latest do settler or/and first wonder. And then we need new scout what could go with the galley to search islands over the seas to get some good stuff from huts and find new civilizations.
Tech route thinking; finishing of wheel - sailing - masonry - mysticism (Stonehenge- isn't it too late to try to finish it) - meditation - Priesthood - polytheism - (Writing/Monotheism/?) - Literature/Code of laws - iron working/aesthetics .... ???
timmy827
King
I am in favor of taking out Shaka quickly, and am thus in favor of the pig production city over marble as our first settler. I would put it 2N of the pigs; will get a couple more hills to work + ivory (remember we can hook up the ivory for 
before IW if desired. Only minus is a little more overlap with the capital and five turns delay to start the pasture.
Agree on having the WB circle Marble Island before using it on the fish. Another WB to explore north, plus a barracks, are good builds while the capital grows.
Techpath - I don't agree on stonehenge, we might get it but if we rush Shaka we need to pick the wonders giving us most bang for buck, which are TGLighthouse and Oracle IMO. Wheel->Sailing->up the religious line to Priesthood.
Jabah - you said Shaka was in Slavery, but the save does not.
before IW if desired. Only minus is a little more overlap with the capital and five turns delay to start the pasture.Agree on having the WB circle Marble Island before using it on the fish. Another WB to explore north, plus a barracks, are good builds while the capital grows.
Techpath - I don't agree on stonehenge, we might get it but if we rush Shaka we need to pick the wonders giving us most bang for buck, which are TGLighthouse and Oracle IMO. Wheel->Sailing->up the religious line to Priesthood.
Jabah - you said Shaka was in Slavery, but the save does not.
Jabah
Emperor
@timmy : I said he didn't revolt (ie he has not BW yet)
I would build warrior (for MP), and chop/whip 2axe as soon as copper is connected to at least trap Shaka in his city (and hopefully capture a worker on the way). Then settler.
The huge problem with a city 2N of the pig is that it can't get the pig without culture. (which is a waste right now).
I thing we will have a bit of time before the settler is ready to decide where we send it.
I would build warrior (for MP), and chop/whip 2axe as soon as copper is connected to at least trap Shaka in his city (and hopefully capture a worker on the way). Then settler.
The huge problem with a city 2N of the pig is that it can't get the pig without culture. (which is a waste right now).
I thing we will have a bit of time before the settler is ready to decide where we send it.
timmy827
King
orb
Warlord
Guys.
I've played 3 test games as per this game settings, but not trying to worldbuild the same map.
Played each game to 1AD or until Pyramids were built.
Here are the results
G1 G2 G3 Order
Budhism 3640 BC 3640 BC 3440 BC
Hinduism 3080 BC 3440 BC 3360 BC
Judaism 2360 BC 2800 BC 1440 BC
Stone Henge 1880 BC 1040 BC 2200 BC 1
Great Wall ? 1400 BC 1680 BC 2
Oracle 750 BC 875 BC 1440BC 3
Pyramids 1040 BC 125 BC 250 AD 6
G Light House 750 BC 750 BC 125 BC 4
Temple of Artemis 350 BC 450 BC 425 BC 5
Christianity 50 BC - -
Confusianism - 150 BC 275 BC
Colossus - 75 BC - 7
I followed our current tech path (Fish/AH/BW/Wheel) then went Meditation/ Masonry/ Poly/Priesthood to get access to Oracle....I managed to get the Oracle once in the 3 games. (I got the underlined wonders)....Not great although I didn't use any whiping.
In the time that I was playing I had established 3 or 4 cities....The AI's had between 4-8.
It wasn't that easy to get Stonehenge, but was easy to get Great wall, also take note...I didn't get GLH in any game. (Although was very close in all 3).
Also - In game 2 an AI was stealing tech from me by 175BC. (Early Alphabet)
If we still want GLH then we may have to forget Oracle.
How are you guys getting on with your test games?
I've played 3 test games as per this game settings, but not trying to worldbuild the same map.
Played each game to 1AD or until Pyramids were built.
Here are the results
G1 G2 G3 Order
Budhism 3640 BC 3640 BC 3440 BC
Hinduism 3080 BC 3440 BC 3360 BC
Judaism 2360 BC 2800 BC 1440 BC
Stone Henge 1880 BC 1040 BC 2200 BC 1
Great Wall ? 1400 BC 1680 BC 2
Oracle 750 BC 875 BC 1440BC 3
Pyramids 1040 BC 125 BC 250 AD 6
G Light House 750 BC 750 BC 125 BC 4
Temple of Artemis 350 BC 450 BC 425 BC 5
Christianity 50 BC - -
Confusianism - 150 BC 275 BC
Colossus - 75 BC - 7
I followed our current tech path (Fish/AH/BW/Wheel) then went Meditation/ Masonry/ Poly/Priesthood to get access to Oracle....I managed to get the Oracle once in the 3 games. (I got the underlined wonders)....Not great although I didn't use any whiping.
In the time that I was playing I had established 3 or 4 cities....The AI's had between 4-8.
It wasn't that easy to get Stonehenge, but was easy to get Great wall, also take note...I didn't get GLH in any game. (Although was very close in all 3).
Also - In game 2 an AI was stealing tech from me by 175BC. (Early Alphabet)
If we still want GLH then we may have to forget Oracle.
How are you guys getting on with your test games?
orb
Warlord
Mmmm that table didn't work very well. - Let me just have a quick practice.
Jabah
Emperor
...We are creative
My turn to have a doh moment
It also give us a good reason not to deseperately go after Stonehenge.
Agree that the early wonder we really wants are Oracle and GLH. (Pyramids without stoen would take too long especially with Shaka around).
I didn't try any test game, but in a few isolated game on emperor (like the lonely hearts series somewhere here), I often manage to have Oracle+GLH.
Oracle needs to be started quite soon and if possible with Marble if we want to have a good chance. GLH has a building (lighthouse) pre-requise and need a production city on the seaside, so often the AI is not (too) fast to it.
I suggest we go something like that:
Plan A
wheel, sailing, masonry
warrior,settler (start -> for marble), axe (whip/chop), axe, galley, settler (whip when galley in position), lighthouse (whip when marble online), Oracle, GLH. (could try to whip another setller between Oracle and GLH)
or
plan B
settler (whip/chop -> for pig/elephant), axe x2, settler (whip/chop-> for marble), galley, lght (whip when marble), oracle, GLH
1st settler for pig/elephant and in charge of 2MP warriors (and 1worker?)
2nd settler for marble island
In both case we should consider that in order to connect Marble faster, we settle on it (will get the second fish), that also save workers turns (but lose a good bit of production for later)
or
plan C
settler (-> for marble), galley (whip), settler (whip/chop-> for pig elephant), axex2, lght (whip when marble), oracle, GLH
Marble island has time for being settled of marble, but that delay military a lot
in anycase, marble city is a very good Maoi city (but better if it has production before), and it should start building soon (maybe a warrior/worker/WB before with whip overflows put into Maoi often)
gOng_civ'
Chieftain
...but how are "the turnset", where's the turnlist... who plays next turns and who then etc....
Kodii
Ka ICE
We'll put it together as we go along. Something that I've learned from many SGOTMs is that a set roster doesn't always fly. Often times we have to go with whoever is most confident in playing and has the time to.
Sorry for being rather OOP, but I'm liking the discussion so far. A much less stressful atmosphere as previously. Kudos to everyone for the work they have put in so far.
As for my input, I am thinking that there is a narrow balance between taking Shaka out or becoming production whores. I agree that Shaka needs to go, especially if we're alone together, but we need to take charge over what is a priority over another.
What is our current priority? Perhaps we want to focus on getting the Oracle. In that case, we may want Plan A/C.
If want to get Shaka out ASAP, we may want to go with Plan B.
Ultimately, we want a good mix, so it depends how close to the edge we want to go in either taking out Shaka or landing the GLH and the Oracle.
TheArchduke
Feeling at home..
I rather forego the oracle and concentrate on an axerush followed by the GLH.
I am not that big of a fan of the oracle, and we have to conquer many wonders anyway. We are down the late conquest route anyway with those lands.
I am not that big of a fan of the oracle, and we have to conquer many wonders anyway. We are down the late conquest route anyway with those lands.
Jabah
Emperor
I could finish my 'turns' tomorrow night.
I will post more options (and detail planning) tonight.
I am more now in favor of building pig city, a few axe then marble city (try the Oracle IF we can have it very fast, quite possible)
Kind of plan B, but growing the city to size4 or 5. (More latter)
I will post more options (and detail planning) tonight.
I am more now in favor of building pig city, a few axe then marble city (try the Oracle IF we can have it very fast, quite possible)
Kind of plan B, but growing the city to size4 or 5. (More latter)
timmy827
King
I also like plan B. I think delaying Oracle by marble island as 3rd city makes sense, we need to research 4 techs after Wheel to build it with the marble (mysticism before masonry for the prereq discount), plus Pottery before it is done to take MC if that's still the plan (writing if anything else is the plan).
I don't think whipping before granary is a good idea, all those hills are a better food/hammer trade once mined.
I don't think whipping before granary is a good idea, all those hills are a better food/hammer trade once mined.
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