SGOTM 08 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[TheArchduke]

I really don´t think we should sit on 3 mediocre cities and try to build the oracle.

I admit I am not a huge fan of it as it is many wasted hammers for a tech. It may be worth it when you got marble and get a decent tech for it, but not else.

I am in favour of beelining a 2nd city near the pigs/hills for more production but after that we should axe rush Shaka and make it count.

I rather get rid of him now instead of sitting in a jungle infested penninsula with an oracle.

Am I all alone?

 

[Jabah]

Sorry, yesterday night was longer than expected (volley-ball match then a few drinks...).

I think we have all more or less on the idea.

Agree with pig-elephant city first (but I would build a warrior first to grow).
Marble island - with or without Oracle - won't be mediocre city: it will make all our city have a 2cpt trade and it seems to be the best possible place for Maoi (all seaside, at least 1 fish and 1 very hammer heavy tile to build it (marble)).

I would settle it after some axe anyway, and if Oracle is still there, try our luck (but I would take CoL for court and religion, which will be much needed if alone).

I would build only 2 axe first, to trap Shaka (let him build us a few workers). We also need to make sure his capital is worth it (I am afraid it might be 1title inland).


Pre-plan. to be commented/amended (might play tonight if all clear)

WB : go around marble island then settle fish in 4t
worker : finish mining copper (t30), move NW on forrest-grass(t31), chop (t33 or t34), road (t36 need wheel), move copper(t37), road(t39)

city
T28 (now) no change
T29 no change
T30 work the copper instead of gold (won't change WB schedule but more overflow - trade 6c for 3h is worth it imho now)
T31 WB done (net clam), size3, settler for 1t , working copper, gold, cow (not clam, trading 1h for 6c is not worth it) (settler 3+10+2 -> 15/100).
T32 Fish netted, production to warrior at max growth (fish, cow, clam) (+9food, growth in 3t)
T33, T34 swap warrior for settler for the forrest chop for just 1t (swap tiles to copper+fish+cow) (settler 15+20?+8+6->49/100)
T35
T36 size4 work copper, fish, gold, cow (warrior 9+10 -> 4overflow
T37 warrior done, continue settler (49+4+10+5 ->68/100)
T38 work clam instead of gold (settler 68+8+8->84)
T39 same (settler 83+8+8->98/100)
T40 settler done, start axe

 

[chmoosi]

Hello all

Sorry I haven't been much around.. The reason for that is simply because I uninstalled my CIV 4 for an undefined period, I need to get more stuff done

But I've been following and my 2cents on the plan.. I think GLH is more important that Oracle. Also if we want to get rid of Shaka, we probably won't have the resources for the Oracle (we need to build barracks soon too) But I'm not very experienced with early wars so my advice isn't that good here.. Also, looking at Orb's table, it seems if we take the marble city we might have a chance for the temple of artemis which is useful with the GLH...

About your plan jabah.. the hammers for the warrior could be used for barracks yes or had you some specific plans for him?

 

[TheArchduke]

Good point, barracks should go before warrior. We are not in the need of too much fogbusting right now. Or is he for MP?

Storm seems gone. I would love to see if I am all alone with my:

Rush Shaka hard and early strategy. If yes bad luck for me. I still think it is the best plan.

 

[timmy827]

Jabah's plan sounds good. If we are going to choke Shaka then I don't think the barracks should go before axes.

Only question is t31 - building settler for one turn. I don't have time to check save; I'm assuming this is done because once the fish is netted it would still take 3 turns to grow - if so, fine.

 

[Jabah]

won't play tonight anyway, so more time for discussion.

- warrior is for cheap MP, before we connect copper (since after we lose this option), but also to fogbust the second city waiting for settler (there is a panther around).

- I would also set city#2 on 1or 2 warrior before connecting it (if possible, we might have sailing before)

- settler t31: initial idea was grow from size3 to size4 in 3t, need +26food for than (we will start with a empty box) so +9/t with only option cow+fish+clam. Since I could not have fish before (if WB around marble island), I thought spending a turn on settler at max prod was the best.

Sorry Archduke, my vote is not to 'extremly early' rush Shaka, 2 axe should be OK to prevent him from devellopping (if he has settle on Copper, wwe could reconsider) and we can finish it when we have a bit more time.
(also I would build a barrack in city#2, but city#1 won't build to much military for while.


PS I was toying with the idea of not netting the clam and exploring but that is delaying settler (and therefore axes) too much, re-edit except if we build the settler at size3 immediatly and grow after (need to check that)

 

[Jabah]

T28 (now) no change
T29 no change
T30 work the copper instead of gold (won't change WB schedule but more overflow - trade 6c for 3h is worth it imho now)
T31 WB done (explore), size3, settler working copper, gold, cow (settler 3+10+2 -> 15/100).
T32 Fish netted, swap tile to fish+cow+copper (settler15+8+6->29)
T33 same (settler 29+8+6->43)
T34 same including chop (settler 43+8+6+20?->77)
T35 same (settler 77+8+6->91)
T36 same (settler 91+8+6->105)
T37 settle done, start warrior

butthe pb is no escort for settler, size4 only at t42 and a lot less commerce (no gold only 1 sea) so wheel could take longer and copper not connected T39-40

 

[TheArchduke]

Well, choking might be a middle way (hopefully snatching a worker). But it basically means that we can´t conquer him pre catapults, making our struggle rather long

To be honest my experience with choking is slim, if I attack early I make it count. But go ahead with the game, Jabah, it seems my warmongering dreams are not in line with the team.

 

[Jabah]

I could (will) play in 2-3h. if no one object.

I think we should delay 'finishing' Sailing until the second city has built another warrior, so I might go mysticism before sailing.

@archduke : we could always make more than 2 axes if we want to delay the 2nd settler.

 

[TheArchduke]

Go ahead, Jabah, I just note in the log that I wanted to kill Shaka early.

Establish a second city, get 2 axes for barbarian patrol and maybe choking Shaka, then we see what we do next.

 

[Jabah]

T28 - 2880BC (continue)
no change

T29 - 2840BC
Copper mined (1t earlier than I remembered)
change working tiles

T30 - 2800BC
found another fish for marble island
worker NW to start chopping next turn.

T31 - 2760BC
WB->Settler (1t)
size3 : copper+gold+cow
Clam netted.

Judaism founded in DistLand

T32 - 2720BC
Fish netted
Change build to warrior (settler19/100), working fish+clam+cow.

T33 - 2680BC
Forrest chopped
change warrior to settler working copper+cow+fish

T34 - 2640BC
back to warrior (settler 53/100), working fish+clam+cow.
Wheel in 1t, move worker back to copper.

T35 - 2600BC
The Wheel -> Sailing (10t)

T36 - 2560BC
Size4, work fish+cow+copper+gold (sailing in 6t)

T37 - 2520BC
warrior done, back to settler
worker move to 'cleared' grassland to road.
Warrior kept for MP (needed at size5) and don't want to lose it to barbarians.

The panther is still wandering West of the elephant.
The warrior is not need to fogbust the 2nd city as our culture is 'clearing' all the (land) tiles in the small pig peninsula

T38 - 2480BC
road to copper finished.
(settler 72/100 - no need to stop working gold)

T39 - 2440BC
Stonehenge Bidal.
Worker goes to cow to road (and road gold after for happy)

T40 - 2400BC
Settler done -> axe
Settler goes toward pig/elephant (settle in 2t).

Save upload http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm8/The_Real_Ms_Beyond_SG008_BC2400_01.CivBeyondSwordSave


A few suggestion for the next turns
- I would change research to mystiscism before finishing sailing to let the new city build a cheap MP warrior.
- worker could road gold, then go to pasturised the pig for city#2 (maybe chop a forrest to speed axes on the way?).
- We should consider revolting to Slavery immediatly while we have only 1 city

 

[TheArchduke]

Thanks for the turns, Jabah.

Well the second fish reinforces the notion of a Maoi-Marble city. The question is now where we put our cities in the near surroundings. I think it is dotmapping time.

I also still think rushing Shaka is the way to go.

Pre 1000 BC the AIs are in peaceful mode and weak targets, if we can strike early we can overcome him easily.

And from my games I know Shaka is a nutcase, as much as Monty.

 

[timmy827]

Moai - yes you get the most benefit in a city like Marble Island, but the danged things take forever to build in such locations even with stone. That site to the south of marble island looks good (3 plains hills) if there is another food source. I often use this national wonder to augment an already-good production city, especially on this map type where we will want the HE in a city that can crank ships; the capital and pig/elephant city both look like decent sites in that regard. This isn't the most pressing decision, but wanted to throw that out there.

Agree with the mysticism/police warrior idea.

I think we should consider another worker before completing both axes, we have a lot of improvements to do. Micro'd plan:
Over next 4 turns, work the tiles in capital as they are configured, except swapping the gold to clams once (will bring growth down by a turn, synching it with the axe). Move our worker to the hill 1S of capital, build mine 1 turn, then change to chop (road to gold can wait, city won't be size 6 for a little while). This way the chop comes in the turn after city grows + axe finishes, on that turn we will have 10 normal production, 5 overflow, and 20 chop -> 43 H towards a worker with expansive bonus; will finish it in only 2 turns.

 

[Jabah]

We need everything at once (more soldiers to crush Shaka, more cities, more wonders, more workers... and more exploring units), so we have some hard choices to make.

Short term Production
I suggest capital goes axe x2 (or 3 depending on timing) then settler. (or timmy worker plan which is fine except that I like having 2 axes together - see after).
Pig/Elep goes warrior then galley (MM to be ready at the same time as settler)
Galley will bring settler to marble island and then explore the other island (or the reverse if galley ready to soon)

Worker could chop immediatly 1S of capital as timmy said, but I would consider having one chop go towards the axes in order to have both axes ready within 1-2t from each other, just because it will be much safer if we need to attack a escorted settler (archer likely) with some back-up in case we are unlucky (plus barbarian on the way could damage badly enough the 1st axe).
I would have the worker then finish the mine, as we will need another improved tile soon. Then worker goes to pig (if time and warrior finished, he should road the hill 1W of P/E city connecting both city) then probably should mine some hill (starting with the plain hill 2W of capital which couold be worked by both cities)

longer term production
Capital : lighthouse, Oracle, GLH.
P/E city : barrack, military ?
marble city : WB?, settler?, library

Marble city
Marble city will take time to build Maoi but it could be done with overwhipping (need lighthouse, granary, library anyway) and with 2 fishes it could also be a place to get 2 scientists soon for our first GS (working 2 fish, marble+2 scientist).
Another option is settling ON the marble for 3 fish to be GPP farm + immediat marble (but no Maoi there then and NE will also take a while).
I am more and more in favor of the second option (to speed marble connection and set a GPP farm asap)

Oracle
I think we should try Oracle, because we will need CoL (and religion? and caste for our 'scientist farm) at some point and therefore will need the tech up to Oracle. If we decide to forget the Oracle, we need to decide which techs we are going, but no CoL (or Economical tech) will be equal to less cities to afford.

Settling our peninsula
Until IronWorking, no site there look decent (and after, they still need millions of worker turns to clear all this jungle), so I would pass it for now. (there are decent site next to Shaka on the other hand...)
The most important is settling (up to) 3 close island cities for the extra trade when we have GLH.

 

[TheArchduke]

I am rather wary of the Oracle as too much luck depends on waiting with building it until you can get a good tech. Also Polytheism and Priesthood is a quite early deadend.

Imo it only pays off for an industrial civ, but alas.

In any case, I think we should get a 2nd worker asap. Then chop rush a 2nd settler to get that marble city early on so it can start on Maoi.

We then build/chop/whip axes like mad and as soon as the marble is hooked up we start building the oracle in the capital, more axes in pig city and maoi in marble city.

This does everything at once, but I think we can pull it off. Attacking before a possible 1000BC threshold is important.

 

[gOng_civ']

...IMO we should need also in some point send scout+ galley(after the marble island has populationed) mix to explore huts that we could find some money/techonologies and cartograph our environment and possible borders...

 

[orb]

I agree with the axe/galley/settler plan......but just reading Jabah's post I notice that a distant land has founded Judaism already (2760BC)....Or in other words an AI is far closer to Priesthood than we are. - Call me a sceptic, but I think it's highly likely that we wont get to the Oracle in time to complete it before an AI. - I think we should forget Oracle and focus on GLH whilst preparing for war on Shaka with our (soon to be) other cities. - I also think Shaka is still the biggest risk to us winning this game right now so we should move against him sooner rather than later.

By the way - Who's next to play?

Just for info: - I have some time constraints coming up.... 7/8th Oct, I'm in France and last week of Oct - I'm in Spain..(On vacation......it's been a lonnnng summer)

 

[TheArchduke]

Hmm, well who wants to play the next turnset. It will likely involve building more axes and I hope I can persuade the rest of the team in favour of an early war (seems like orb is with me on this already.)

I still think the Oracle is by no means worth it if you have to build it too early to get a good tech out of it.(Which on monarch is already likely..)

 

[gOng_civ']

I would play the next turnset.

... if somebody could give me first answers to my questions;

* is there something odd with the saving and loading in the teamsave that have to notice? (what have to notice when I load/save the game, where the save appear...)

*how many turns I can play (for what year or game happening)

*what's the deadline ( I could play it immediately or monday evening = Finland's time), then when I'm sure what to do with the save)

And what are the latest mainlines of our team; should I go with Jabah suggestions mixed with other advices. And what about the next tech, marble island city...?

If I get answers for this all - I could gladly start to play.

Sorry 'bout my ignorance... =)

 

[orb]

On another subject - given that this is BTS - Does anyone ever use the Great Wall to generate Great Spy's and benefit from the espionage game?

I used this recently in BOTM 9 (Immortal Russian game) - I found it a useful way to catch up in Tech with AI's who were out researching me until I got my own economy/research sorted out.

I think there are advantages for this game:

A) It's another wonder which we are trying to collect.
B) It's quick to build.
C) It gives handy Espionage points

Just going back to the dates that we have seen the early religions going...I suspect there are some fast teching AI's out there, and given our situation...We dont have a lot of great city spaces, and we are going to have to deviate from wonder builds to fight a war against Shaka sooner or later....therefore when we do contact other AI's we will find ourself behind them in tech.....A Great Spy + a few tech steal's could be a very useful way to catch up. - Especially if we intend a military campaign to win. (Dont want to fight against superior military tech.)

But if we want to build GW then it's another one that we should start soon. - Question is do we start it before or after GLH?....Again just going back to my previous test games...GLH was build by Ai's in 750BC in 2 games. GW was built by me in 1400/1680 BC.....So there would be sufficient time to build GW soon while we waited for Marble city to get established/connected to help with GLH.

What does the team think?