SGOTM 08 - The Real Ms. Beyond

[Jabah]

It means that if/when we finish Sailing, both cities will be automatically connected via 'sea route' and therefore, the second city will have access to copper (so won't be allowed to build warrior anymore but spear and axe -much more expensive-).

Warrior will (or could) stay inside a city to prevent the 'we fear for our safety' unhappiness (MP : military Protection)

Hope it is clearer

 

[gOng_civ']

Dammit! (I could start think with my own brains ) I think that 'causes of stress by my baccalaureate, or however you say it, A-levels or etc...

But isn't that waste of time, change allmost ready tech to another...

However I play tonight (Prison Break, Heroes, The Simpsons and Champions League watching take too much time to play it yesterday )

 

[gOng_civ']

I try to play it, but only that I get is window where is text HOF mod error, and something warnings about it that the play will be not valid in results etc. And yes - I have Vista on my computer and I have do IMO everything that the HOF's site Vista-fix page order to do. I don't now but I don't get that "3. Under Privilege Level, select Run this program as an administrator, and then click OK." in the choosemenu when I try to open it...

I think I'm out of playing that mod... somebody else could play next...

Cheers

 

[Jabah]

I don't run Vista, so I have no idea what it could be ...

 

[timmy827]

No vista for me, sorry about the problem.

I could take the next turns Thursday evening (at GMT -7). Sorry I haven't been contributing much to the talk lately.

 

[timmy827]

Never mind, something came up (was also looking for an OK from at least a couple of teammates). Have plans Friday; so am posting a "got it" for Saturday morning. If someone else can play before then I am fine with that, just let me know.

 

[Jabah]

Should we take this little extra time to check that we all agree on the immediat plan (I am a bit lost as what exactly will be researched, build orders, what the worker will do and the timing).

We also should (not necessary immediatly) discuss longer term strategy, because right now, it looks like we are playing just another casual SG (where plans are at best made by the active player just before playing) which is probably OK if everyone feel like it, but was not exactly what I had in mind when signing in (I was more interested in active brainstorming and active discussion, a bit like at the beginning of the last SGOTM).

This lack of discussion is leading us to a very inconsistent strategy: for exemple, we have decided to axe rush Shaka - which is a fine option in itself - but then this decision timing was completely wrong, as during the previous round (my turns) we were aiming at something else (expending) and spent time and hammers building a settler that won't contribute to anything in the rush (the city will neither produce significative military nor connect a new ressource). Had the decision been made earlier, we could have built axes earlier (and either barracks or warriors before copper).

Jabah

PS - On a side note, I still think Shaka is too far away (10-15t walk in the jungle!) AND what we know of his city not too hot (only forrests) to deserve killing him asap, I would be fine sending 2/3 axes to choke him and prevent him being a nuissance, while milking him for free workers regularly and finishing him much later. And going back to (Oracle &) GLH plans.

 

[gOng_civ']

In now I support idea that we make sure we build first GLH, that's the most important. If we have to made too many axes this will take too much time in this point. We could try to test our luck by send couple of axes look what's going on. Also, if this case-Shaka turn later,I want to do this "Shaka-attack" by swordsman(?)s rush with galleys.This looks better option for invasion later with galleys and make quicklier take workers and destroy or block the most important resources and routes.

And technologyroute I think earlier...

(And if somebody in team use Vista I will be more than happy to hear any ideas where's the problem when I can't play)

 

[TheArchduke]

Well, I don´t think out that dragging out the war achieves us anything really.

I am still not persuaded that the Oracle will get us anything of use. The GLH may be nice, but I still favour getting rid of Shaka.

Shaka has better land, more expansion possibilities then us. In the long run he will be a pain.

 

[timmy827]

So far I had been in favor of rush vs. choke, mostly because I've never done the latter. But if I take the next turns, that's not a big deal - get some axes moving towards him and hand off the save before any combat.

Rough turn plan for the choke, sorry I gotta go to work so this is most detail:
Don't revolt to slavery. It's tempting but I don't see us whipping in the immediate future w/o granaries, and the capital has plenty of good tiles to work.
Research to Mysticism (+Masonry) if needed until 2nd city builds warrior, then Sailing, then Pottery?. Capital moves gold to clam for 3 t for growth. Worker moves 1SW to chop hill to get 2nd axe quickly, those two will be sent towards Shaka. Will build one more axe to follow, we will need an escort for captured workers and I want to leave two on the choke. Worker moves to 2nd cities' pig hill after chop. Capital builds a worker when it's about to go over size 5 happiness. I know we hope to steal some from Shaka, but we really need a 2nd worker soon and the round trip to steal one is ~25 turns not counting a few turns to build the first axes. 2nd worker roads gold first for happiness. Capital builds one more axe for local barb defence? I would probably hand off at that point anyways.

I'm not sure what the 2nd city should build after its warrior. Would go granary once pottery is in but there will be a few turns after warrior.

For the rush it would be similar except with a barracks first at the capital. Again, this is rough but all I have time for until tomorrow morning, trying to get detail discussion going.

 

[orb]

Jabah. - You are right that we need to dicuss our longer term game strategy.

As a summary as I understand, because this game is about wonder point/turn (not just winning) we have elected to go for a military campaign to capture wonders off the rest of the world.....We dont seem to be trying to build them at home. - We have also decided not to choose the religious route and get the additional religious buildings wonder points.

So to achieve that we will need to meet the rest of the world. Targets is to research to Astronomy...to be able to transport sufficient troops across sea. (So we should be coming up with our best plan for fast route to Astronomy to try and catch AI before they reach Infantry)

Also. - With regards the religious buildings...I think it is fine to let other nations build them with their GT prophets as it means we can concentrate on Gt scientists/gt merchants to fund our campaign and gain a tech lead. (again aiming at Astro).

As a bit of detail here - In a recent Monarch game of mine I chose to settle all Gt scientists and aim for Gt Lib. - This gave me a nice tech lead going into the late game. (I was aiming for Spaceship win in that game)......The only tech I lightbulbed was Philosophy to ensure I got Liberalism first.

Actually this is an assumption on my part that the team will want to use Gt Scientists....If others have another plan then lets hear it and we can discuss?

Also....In terms of wonders built at home...The GLH will give us a good economy which will useful for a military campaign, and as I've mentioned above the G Lib will be useful for tech lead, but do we have a plan for other wonders. - Getting Marble city opens up a lot of wonder possibilities....But there is a balance between building wonders at home and winning the game by military. (I think frommemory there are about 10 wonders which benefit Marble...I'll post a list and we can review what we want to go for.)

This discussion is a bit thin on detail as we should find out more about the world and the AI's we face before coming up with a firm plan. (Including a bit of dedtailed map gazing to locate the AI cities with wonders and religious buildings)...So scouting galley soonish (Maybe from pig city) to help us generate our detaled plan.

Also...With regards Shaka. - As we are going military to win the game I@m happy to kick off the military appoach by taking out Shaka. (and removing his threat to our game) (and benefiting from his city locations)...So I think it's a good thing to do at this stage in the game. - When I'm playing Conquest/Domination games I frequently target the aggressive civ's first to remove them before they remove me. - I then target the fast teching (India/Chinese/Mansu) civ's before they get a tech lead. (also try and befriend at least one of these for trade.)

And....I had a look at the results/progress table so far. - As The Archduke pointed out it looks like various other teams now have changed the gradient of the graph at about 1600BC. - This increase in points would fit with our plan to take out Shaka....But can we do it before that date???? - I dont know as I dont know enough about Shaka's location/defences....

Hopefully Timmy827's next post will tell us more.

 

[orb]

List of wonders that benefit from Marble:

Parthenon
Oracle
Mausoleum of Maussollos
National Epic
Great Library
Sistine Chapel
Taj Mahal
Temple of Artemis
Versailles
Hagia Sophia
Hermitage
Heroic Epic

Other wonders which we have resources for:

Colossus (Copper)
Statue of LIberty (Copper)

Shwedagon...(Gold)

and soon

Statue of Zeus (Ivory)

We could use the tech tree from an earlier post and this list to highlight which wonder (if any) we want to aim for?

 

[timmy827]

No turns from me. Sorry for my indecisiveness.

I am worried because we are not still at a consensus as to choking vs. rushing and that's a really key decision. I am personally now agreeing with Jabah that choking is best with ~3 axes (w/o barracks) (then going for wonders/expansion). Gong is in basic agreement. Archduke clearly wants to rush, which would involve a barracks and 6+ axes. Kodii is with him. Orb is undecided and wants to see what Shaka has.

The idea of "scout with a few axes and then decide" isn't a good one. He's too far away, we could see weak defenses and think "oh we should rush" but with the long overland march that could change by the time more axes are built and moved west. I think need to make a choice now, with imperfect information.

 

[TheArchduke]

Sounds like a bit of a deadlock here. Blame me for not being a major fan of building most early wonders. Long term, economic wise I think only the Pyramids are really worth it.

You do know we need trading partners to have the GLH to pay for its worth? And Shaka might very well end up dowing us and become our enemy.

 

[timmy827]

You do know we need trading partners to have the GLH to pay for its worth?

Not necessarily true. On a B & S map you can often get all overseas trade routes for each city. Not worth as much as overseas w/another civ, but still very profitable (and enough to break the game's economics, with new cities paying for themselves immediately).

 

[Jabah]

@Archduke:
On some map (and this one looks like it is one of those) the GLH is really over-powered.

GLH is of course better with foreign trading partner, but national oversea routes are 2gpt immediatly which is more (?) than foreign inland trade.
As timmy wrote, having the GLH, eachtime you settle an island (up to island #3) you gain +6gpt from trade in the island city and +1gpt in each other cities if you have more than 3 cities or +2gpt per city if you have less than 3 (so easily +10gpt).

(and since we have not explore, we might find some other AIs not far away).

I am not against rushing, but I don't want to miss GLH.

I would still revolt to slavery, the capital has lots of food, and will regrow quickly without granary. The main problem will be happiness, but we could (if we have enough 'free-worker turns') connect gold and ivory.
I would whip some axes, and if we go GLH soon I would whip the (regular) lighthouse as well.

Even if we don't rush Shaka, I think we need 3axe which could be done quickly with 1 chop & 1whip. 3 axes will give us an option to raze a secondary city (if there is one) and if we are catching Shaka unprepared, we could always have a chance (ie only 1 archer and warriors defending).
Added after edit : If we just 'choke' Shaka, with 2-3 axes, disconnecting his metal/horse asap, pillaging everything, and 'camping' outside his city in wood, he won't be able to do us any harm and won't interfere with our plans.

For city#2, with pigs and plenty of hills, it could be our military provider (that was my idea anyway in the 'capital -> Wonders'), so it could build barrack (?) or axes directly to finish Shaka, another option is a galley and/or settler.

Long term, I agree we need more info about the surroundings (and AIs presences), but we will need a very strong research city (with GLib I guess).
We should also have a GPP farm (possible with Caste System and lots of Scientist to lightbulb up to Astro ?), which could well be the city on the marble. With 2 plain forrest and a plain workshop (?), it will have enough production to (slow) build the basic infra before recruting specialists. (before being in caste system, just need to build/whip granary, lighthouse and if possible library)
I am also more and more 'in love' with AP in my 'isolated' games, (oracling theology if possible) to get (1) religion, (2) the production bonus and also (3) to deny all its powers to the AIs.

 

[TheArchduke]

I would rather go safe with 5-6 axes and then start the GLH to have a real shot at killing Shaka.

I would recommend using both our cities establishing a rush (perhaps a second worker in the capital to chop, rush axes quicker)

And as soon as we have 5-6 they are off and we start a settler galley in city # 2 and a GLH in city # 1.

Actually I am in favour of renaming the cities of Khmer to sane names, who is with me?

 

[orb]

Actually I am in favour of renaming the cities of Khmer to sane names, who is with me?

Like it...He who builds the city names the city.

 

[orb]

In terms of the game....I am concerned about Shaka, and I am concerned that so far we have zero wonder points....So using the best possible method to decide...(quick pause to flip a coin)....I say we choke Shaka and aim for lighthouse/GLH in capital (Or Archdukestadt or whatever it's called.)

 

[gOng_civ']

Does somebody else use Vista ? (Jabah, timmy827 answered already...)