SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[rrau]

The worker said 'chopping forest 4 turns' when I hovered over it, so the scout would have time to get back to help protect it.

The consensus seems to be for me to pop the hut and pause again? The scout hasn't moved yet this turn.

 

[Cactus Pete]

rrau wrote that Shaka had change his civics to Slavery the turn before [Do we know that this means he has just researched BW?], this Worker may have had orders that pre-dates the discovery of Bronze Working? Good point. I'd still like to know how far along he is on his chop.He could disappear on a new mission? Of course, if that's mining copper, then we would want to steal the worker

I remember that it took a while before he built another Archer, unless I stole his worker! That's good to know. I found Axes to be quite effective against Impi. No doubt. However, having to build Axes does throw off the road to Oracle and Bureaucracy. Having our second city up and running quickly would allow the capital to work on wonders. That means important to get Cow pastured and hills mined. If we go to war, the deveopment plan may indeed need some revision.

Shaka's Worker could be used to build a road back to our cities. What about escort?

Wouldn't want to lose him.

 

[rrau]

>>>THE SAVE<<<

Turn log:

29: per plan
30: per plan...scout moves next to jaguar
31: scout barely survives attack. Will take 7 turns to heal. Judaism founded in a distant land
31: per plan
32: per plan
33: per plan
34: per plan
35: I seem to have misclicked here and instead of queue swap to settler I clicked worker instead when I did the swap....Didn't notice it until worker completed Sorry for all the wasted time you all put into the plan
36: per plan
37: per plan
38: I notice after I pop the hut (38g)and decide to go ahead and move workers, that I have a new worker in the capital and realized I messed up. I submitted the save as I just threw the whole plan in the trash with my mistake.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Okay, next plan.

 

[ShannonCT]

Don't beat yourself up about it too much rrau.

Some possible damage control:

1) If we work clams instead of gold for three turns and chop an extra forest, we can get the settler out on turn 41. 15 beakers are lost, but with the gold from the hut, we can run at 100% every turn now.

2) If we steal the worker next turn and can get him home unescorted, we can have all 4 workers on the cows on the turn borders expand, so there is no delay in population growth for PH City.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Don't beat yourself up about it too much rrau.

Some possible damage control:

1) If we work clams instead of gold for three turns and chop an extra forest, we can get the settler out on turn 41. 15 beakers are lost, but with the gold from the hut, we can run at 100% every turn now. Sounds good.

2) If we steal the worker next turn and can get him home unescorted, we can have all 4 workers on the cows on the turn borders expand, so there is no delay in population growth for PH City.

Wouldn't that require the worker to move onto several jungle squares blind to some adjacent squares where barbs might be waiting? Are you thinking that we want to use our warrior to explore Zulu territory and beyond? Would you have the scout explore further west or cross territory while he (perhaps) can?

Still interested in opinion on state of Shaka's research, particularly significance of Slavery switch. Does that mean BW just researched and therefore any copper in the cross just being revealed.

 

[ShannonCT]

Wouldn't that require the worker to move onto several jungle squares blind to some adjacent squares where barbs might be waiting? Are you thinking that we want to use our warrior to explore Zulu territory and beyond? Would you have the scout explore further west or cross territory while he (perhaps) can?

Worker moving unescorted would obviously have a few turns of possibly being killed. Is the risk worth getting cows pastured a turn sooner? Maybe not.

Yes, I was thinking warrior could explore Zulu territory and scout could go West. Maybe scout will find more AI or more huts.

Still interested in opinion on state of Shaka's research, particularly significance of Slavery switch. Does that mean BW just researched and therefore any copper in the cross just being revealed.

I always assumed that AI switched to slavery immediately after BW, but I can test it. Either way, it seems that AI wouldn't send a worker to chop when copper is unmined, given that both chopping and copper require BW. Why would Shaka choose to chop before mining copper in the FC?

 

[leif erikson]

38: I notice after I pop the hut (38g)and decide to go ahead and move workers, that I have a new worker in the capital and realized I messed up. I submitted the save as I just threw the whole plan in the trash with my mistake.

Don't beat yourself up about it too much rrau.

SCT is right! Its happened and now we need to work together to figure out how to take advantage of it!
I have done something like this more than I wish to admit...

Okay, next plan.

1) If we work clams instead of gold for three turns and chop an extra forest, we can get the settler out on turn 41. 15 beakers are lost, but with the gold from the hut, we can run at 100% every turn now.

Would it help our effort to acquire CoL's faster by chopping 2 forests into the Settler while working Clams, Fish, Gold and Copper. Settler would be out on turn 42. That should give us 13 beaker carryover? Perhaps these beakers are not enough to matter.

2) If we steal the worker next turn and can get him home unescorted, we can have all 4 workers on the cows on the turn borders expand, so there is no delay in population growth for PH City.

Worker moving unescorted would obviously have a few turns of possibly being killed. Is the risk worth getting cows pastured a turn sooner? Maybe not.

Getting the info on Shaka's terrain and, perhaps, shutting Shaka down a bit, may be worth this risk?

Yes, I was thinking warrior could explore Zulu territory and scout could go West. Maybe scout will find more AI or more huts.

Is it better to go west through the jungle or head north, skirting Shaka's territory, to see what is north of him. Although I do think the jungle may be there to separate civs. What is more important, to meet other civs or get a complete picture of Shaka's land? Or can the Warrior alone complete the snapshot?

I always assumed that AI switched to slavery immediately after BW, but I can test it. Either way, it seems that AI wouldn't send a worker to chop when copper is unmined, given that both chopping and copper require BW. Why would Shaka choose to chop before mining copper in the FC?

This is what I have noticed as well, immediate switch to Slavery and movement to mine.

 

[leif erikson]

Sorry, forgot to ask.

@rrau - Are you intending to play through turn 45?

 

[rrau]

@rrau - Are you intending to play through turn 45?

No, a new plan needs to be formed and I thought this was a good breaking spot.

 

[leif erikson]

No, a new plan needs to be formed and I thought this was a good breaking spot.

We have the opportunity to steal a Worker!

Roster:
Frederiksberg - UP
Cactus Pete - On Deck
Gator
leif
ShannonCT
Killercane
rrau - just played!

Mad Professor - Studying the graphs!
Jimmy Thunder - On Sabbatical

 

[Cactus Pete]

Worker moving unescorted would obviously have a few turns of possibly being killed. Is the risk worth getting cows pastured a turn sooner? Maybe not. Unless this one turn is critical, the worker would seem too valuable to risk as he will be useful for the long term.

Yes, I was thinking warrior could explore Zulu territory and scout could go West. Maybe scout will find more AI or more huts. That's my inclination too. What useful could the worker do without putting his survival at risk trying to get all the way home. He could at the least provide early warning of a Skaka attack.

I always assumed that AI switched to slavery immediately after BW, but I can test it. Either way, it seems that AI wouldn't send a worker to chop when copper is unmined, given that both chopping and copper require BW. Why would Shaka choose to chop before mining copper in the FC?

(Exactly . . . So what's the probabilty that copper has already been mined; that is, that Shaka did not switch to Slavery as soon as BW came in?.

 

[killercane]

You can always try to analyze his production. I can do that when I have time.

We definitely need a new plan. Normally I love to have workers but 4 workers to 1 city is a bit on the generous side . I guess we can have all the tiles roaded and prechopped for wonders. I dont think chopping more woods is the thing to do when we have math coming and marble for increased hammers.

Can we get some updated screenshots of the capital and surrounding worker placements?

If we steal the worker (which we may not need to with the extra) it will get shaka building archers. If he goes for AH and sends a settler there to horses we can steal his worker on the horses though this is more dangerous. He wont attack and kill us on that forest hill so the worker is an easy steal.

 

[leif erikson]

Can we get some updated screenshots of the capital and surrounding worker placements?

The save has been uploaded to the GOTM Server. You may download it and have a look for yourself.
The save is HERE.

If we steal the worker (which we may not need to with the extra) it will get shaka building archers. If he goes for AH and sends a settler there to horses we can steal his worker on the horses though this is more dangerous. He wont attack and kill us on that forest hill so the worker is an easy steal.

Yes, and the steal may do as much to ****** Shaka's development, especially with all that forest, than to wait until Horses may become available.

I think we'll be trying to take Shaka out of this game, the question is what is the fastest way?

 

[Mad Professor]

I think we'll be trying to take Shaka out of this game, the question is what is the fastest way?

I think you mean "what is the way that will get us most wonders" ?

 

[leif erikson]

I think you mean "what is the way that will get us most wonders" ?

Well, I don't think Shaka is going to build any?
Is he?

 

[Cactus Pete]

You can always try to analyze his production. I can do that when I have time.

We definitely need a new plan. Normally I love to have workers but 4 workers to 1 city is a bit on the generous side . Yes, but it won't cost us anything immediately and will certainly be increasingly helpful over time. As leif suggests, the greater gain may be in retarding Shaka'a development. SCT thinks he is likely to have only one worker, so he'd have to build another one before he could chop archers or further improve tiles. If we can get axes to Zululand before he hooks horses or a metal, then we will be in control and he will fairly soon become a source of additional city(s), plus we will be able to proceed efficiently with our own development. I guess we can have all the tiles roaded and prechopped for wonders. I don't think chopping more woods is the thing to do when we have math coming and marble for increased hammers. Agreed, though chopping an axe and getting him to the horses quickly via some extra roads might prove important.

If we steal the worker (which we may not need to with the extra) it will get shaka building archers. If he goes for AH and sends a settler there to horses we can steal his worker on the horses though this is more dangerous. Could we have an axe by the time Shaka expands and researches AH? Since chariots will trump any unit we will be able to build soon, the potential inability to prevent Shaka from hooking the horses worries me about the worker steal. Shaka could put some excess archers on the isthmus to block us (though I've never seen the AI act that cleverly). He wont attack and kill us on that forest hill so the worker is an easy steal.

You're confident he wouldn't at least try if he has a third archer readily available?

 

[ShannonCT]

Still interested in opinion on state of Shaka's research, particularly significance of Slavery switch. Does that mean BW just researched and therefore any copper in the cross just being revealed.

Just tested this. I put 13 Shakas on the same map, and I gave myself Alpha to keep track of their techs. Without fail, I get a "Shaka has adopted slavery" message the turn after BW shows up on one of their tech lists. I think we can assume our Shaka researched BW the turn before we saw the slavery message.

Also in my test, I noticed that Shakas that start on the coast with seafood are significantly slower in building a first settler and extra archers. These Shakas only had CITY_DEFENSE archers on turn 38. Some of the landlocked Shakas had 1 ATTACK archer roaming around on turn 38. If our Shaka started with seafood, it should be especially safe to steal the worker and explore with our warrior (and even our scout). If he didn't, our warrior would want to be more mindful of getting defensive bonuses. Notice that if our warrior steals the worker next turn, he gets a 100% defensive bonus against any archer crossing the river to attack.

If we do steal the worker, what to do with him? He could start building roads. Or the warrior could escort him far enough until it was within range of PH City's fogbusting. If he tries to get back unescorted, there would be 2 turns where he could possibly end a turn next to a barb. On one of those turns, there is 1 danger tile, and on the other turn, there are 2 danger tiles.

 

[leif erikson]

Just tested this. I put 13 Shakas on the same map, and I gave myself Alpha to keep track of their techs. Without fail, I get a "Shaka has adopted slavery" message the turn after BW shows up on one of their tech lists. I think we can assume our Shaka researched BW the turn before we saw the slavery message.

If we do steal the worker, what to do with him? He could start building roads. Or the warrior could escort him far enough until it was within range of PH City's fogbusting. If he tries to get back unescorted, there would be 2 turns where he could possibly end a turn next to a barb. On one of those turns, there is 1 danger tile, and on the other turn, there are 2 danger tiles.

With three Workers in our core area, how badly do we need him to improve PH city?
If he is not immediately needed, then he can start roads back and be a lookout for Shaka sending anyone to "get us".

There is an advantage to having jungle that he has to pass through as Panthers and Wolves can only move 1-tile a turn, just like him, so they must be adjacent.

 

[Cactus Pete]

The above analysis suggests that capturing the woker has more upside than downside. I'm then inclined to use the warrior to check out Zulu territory and send our scout west, but what we reveal of the map in the next two turns might suggest a change in those intentions.

Couple of thoughts:
1. If Shaka is on coast with food and has researched Fishing, how likely is it that he'll research sailing, produce a galley, and threaten our seafood before we're ready to build one of our own?
2. Can we get copper connected and an axe chopped a bit sooner and still get to Oracle on schedule? I'd certainly sacrifice a pre-Math forest, or even two, for this.