SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[Cactus Pete]

Playing or, rather, re-playing, now.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Got through the next turn without crashing. Have some time tomorrow and will try to finish turn set then, or at least much of it.

Notes:

IBT: Caesar wins AP vote; Charlemagne breaks with Boucia; marriage brings HRE and India closer together; Moses born in Prague

189: Durnovia is razed, but this time lose another cuirassier in process (have no idea what I could have done differently); GG born in X-ville (was in Ulundi before) [planning to wait and use to upgrade a cannon]; destroy Charlemagne's stack of HAs and cats near Gergovia; spy reports 2 longbows, a WE, cat, pike, and chariot in Neapolis

Still unsure about what to research after Steel.

Where to build Rock and Roll? Thinking of Globe in Canalville.

The way we're using gold up each turn, I'm reluctant to change X-villes cottages to wkshps. Not going to do so right now, unless there is strong conviction that I should.

Any thoughts about how might deal with Charlemagne, since he's broken with Boudica. Can get a cease fire or peace and probably reduce ww a bit.

Here is interim save (not much new to look at): http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=197347&stc=1&d=1229388927

 

[leif erikson]

Got through the next turn without crashing. Have some time tomorrow and will try to finish turn set then, or at least much of it.

Good news!

Tomorrow will be fine. I'll have a look in a bit.

 

[leif erikson]

IBT: Caesar wins AP vote; Charlemagne breaks with Boucia; marriage brings HRE and India closer together; Moses born in Prague

Gandhi and Charlemagne are pleased towards each other. A cease fire might be a good idea (see below) to keep them Charlie from becoming Gandhi's vassal?

GG born in X-ville (was in Ulundi before) [planning to wait and use to upgrade a cannon]; destroy Charlemagne's stack of HAs and cats near Gergovia; spy reports 2 longbows, a WE, cat, pike, and chariot in Neapolis

Yes, good idea. Then we can also schedule West Point.

Still unsure about what to research after Steel.

We have some nice Maces that we could upgrade to Grens. Military Science requires two turns. Then I think we have to get to Mass Media. Then we can go to Corporation, perhaps Biology?

Where to build Rock and Roll? Thinking of Globe in Canalville.

With the amount of food in Ulundi, I wonder if that is a good place to build Globe because we could grow it beyond its health limits and still be useful?

West Point, with Stone, is a 400 hammer wonder, so Canalville or Stoneville, or do we want it faster?

Rock 'n Roll after Globe in Ulundi? Or do we need units from there?

The way we're using gold up each turn, I'm reluctant to change X-villes cottages to wkshps. Not going to do so right now, unless there is strong conviction that I should.

We're not in terrible shape. At 50%, we would be making 61 GPT and Steel would be due in 4 instead of 2. I see the Merchant is nearly to Delhi, so that will give us a few more turns of 100% research. Capturing a few cities won't hurt either...

We could change some of them? The two villages to the east of X-ville could be changed to Workshops?

How about the Town south of Ivoryville?

Any thoughts about how might deal with Charlemagne, since he's broken with Boudica. Can get a cease fire or peace and probably reduce ww a bit.

Interesting what he says when you mouse over Capitulation! He says "We are afraid of your enemies". Our WW with Charlemagne is 21. He doesn't have anything we particularly need atm, so we could sign a cease fire and get to him later?

 

[ShannonCT]

Charlemagne breaks with Boucia

Suggest a CF with Charlemagne AFTER taking Nuremburg. After we vassalize Boudica, Charlemagne should capitulate easily.

Durnovia is razed

Not sure if this was best. It's cheap to keep cities with State Property, and each one adds to a possible Domination or Diplo victory. I suggest keeping all future cities.

GG born in X-ville (was in Ulundi before) [planning to wait and use to upgrade a cannon]

If you upgrade a cannon, it will be at 25XPs, 1 short of what's needed to start West Point. Should we attach it to a 7XP Cuir instead so we can start WP in Stoneville soon?

Still unsure about what to research after Steel.

Banking is one option. It would let us start Banks in cities like Marbleville, Canalville, Lagos, etc. After Banking, we dont need to go straight to Econ because no one else has Education yet. I like Mass Media so we can get started on the UN. If we want to give ourselves the option of backdoor diplo victory, we need to complete the UN 5-8 turns before the end of the game. I'm still not sold of Military Science, since it adds no potential wonders and because I'd rather spend gold to upgrade to cannons than to grens. Cannons will protect our Cuirs from counterattacks by pikes, elephants, and collateral-causing units.

Where to build Rock and Roll? Thinking of Globe in Canalville.

What about building R&R in Furville instead of Cristo? Cristo wont get done fast enough in Furville for us to take full advantage. I'd rather do Cristo in Ulundi. We can start it next turn, then interrupt it for Ironworks, then resume.

Globe in Canalville is fine with me. I don't think we need Globe in Ulundi. Ulundi only needs to grow 5 more pop to maximize hammers. It's at +3 happiness now and gets 3 more from the market next turn. Then there's silver from Bibracte (+2), capitulation of Boudica (+1), capitulation of Charlemagne (+1), dyes from vassalized Boudica (+1), gems from vassalized Charlemagne (+2), hits from R&R/Broadway/Hollywood with Eiffel (+6).

The way we're using gold up each turn, I'm reluctant to change X-villes cottages to wkshps. Not going to do so right now, unless there is strong conviction that I should.

I would note that X-ville's towns don't contribute any gold, but I see your point about wanting to keep research high. I think it's OK to wait a bit to convert to workshops, as it's not clear to me whether research or production is the limiting factor.

As far as the gold consumption, we get 1900 gold from the trade mission next turn, and more from conquering cities (the rate of which should start picking up). If we dont spend too much on upgrading units, we might be able to stay at 100% research indefinitely. One thing that will help this is to switch from Pacifism to OR in 5 turns (which will not delay the GM in Marbleville). Pacifism is ~20gpt more expensive than OR right now, and that disparity will continue to grow.

Some other suggestions:

Oporto is about to get unhappy. Build a LB after Sankore.

I hope we can take Nuremburg on turn 191. We can move airships to the Indian city of Agra (1 from Evora and 3 from Bibracte). Agra is within range of Nuremburg and Tolosa. After Tolosa and Nuremburg are taken, those airships can rebase to Nuremburg for an attack on Aachen (which we must capture before vassalizing Boudica).

Camul can be attacked next turn. No need to wait for full bombardment.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Lots of good advice, though not all of it is in agreement. I'll be playing again in about three hours. Here's where I am in my thinking, using SCT's post as an organizer:

Suggest a CF with Charlemagne AFTER taking Nuremburg. Concur. After we vassalize Boudica, Charlemagne should capitulate easily.

Not sure if this was best. It's cheap to keep cities with State Property, and each one adds to a possible Domination or Diplo victory. I suggest keeping all future cities. Even small ones that add very little land area?

If you upgrade a cannon, it will be at 25XPs, 1 short of what's needed to start West Point. Should we attach it to a 7XP Cuir instead so we can start WP in Stoneville soon? I'll definitely use a unit with >5 experience.

Banking is one option. Think we'll be able to get Banking from another civ very soon, so I'm leaning heavily towards MM next, but will start building banks as soon a I acquire Banking.It would let us start Banks in cities like Marbleville, Canalville, Lagos, etc. After Banking, we dont need to go straight to Econ because no one else has Education yet. I like Mass Media so we can get started on the UN. If we want to give ourselves the option of backdoor diplo victory, we need to complete the UN 5-8 turns before the end of the game. I'm still not sold of Military Science, since it adds no potential wonders and because I'd rather spend gold to upgrade to cannons than to grens. Going to wait and see how many maces survive after we attack Nuremburg and Tolosa and then revisit MS again. Cannons will protect our Cuirs from counterattacks by pikes, elephants, and collateral-causing units.

What about building R&R in Furville instead of Cristo? Cristo wont get done fast enough in Furville for us to take full advantage. I'd rather do Cristo in Ulundi. We can start it next turn, then interrupt it for Ironworks, then resume. So you're saying Ironworks and then Cristo in Ulundi is much faster than Cristo in Furville?

Globe in Canalville is fine with me. I don't think we need Globe in Ulundi. Ulundi only needs to grow 5 more pop to maximize hammers. Concur.

I would note that X-ville's towns don't contribute any gold, but I see your point about wanting to keep research high. I think it's OK to wait a bit to convert to workshops, as it's not clear to me whether research or production is the limiting factor. Okay, I have the same uncertainty so will delay conversion.

As far as the gold consumption, we get 1900 gold from the trade mission next turn, and more from conquering cities (the rate of which should start picking up). If we dont spend too much on upgrading units, we might be able to stay at 100% research indefinitely. One thing that will help this is to switch from Pacifism to OR in 5 turns (which will not delay the GM in Marbleville). Pacifism is ~20gpt more expensive than OR right now, and that disparity will continue to grow. Will do.

Some other suggestions:

Oporto is about to get unhappy. Build a LB after Sankore. A theater would be one turn quicker and then we will have some of the happiness add-ons that you delineated for Ulundi.

I hope we can take Nuremburg on turn 191. We can move airships to the Indian city of Agra (1 from Evora and 3 from Bibracte). I've been thinking about moving airships to Agra for bombardment of Nuremburg, but I keep finding good use for them each turn as I continue to advance troops and kill off exposed enemy units. I will try to get at least one there to at least deal with the longbow in Nuremburg ASAP. Agra is within range of Nuremburg and Tolosa. After Tolosa and Nuremburg are taken, those airships can rebase to Nuremburg for an attack on Aachen (which we must capture before vassalizing Boudica). Yes, on the same page.

Camul can be attacked next turn. No need to wait for full bombardment.

No reason not to try, but we'd have to win four of four.

 

[ShannonCT]

Even small ones that add very little land area?

They wont help much for Domination but they will help for Diplo.

Think we'll be able to get Banking from another civ very soon, so I'm leaning heavily towards MM next, but will start building banks as soon a I acquire Banking.

Yeah, we can always extort Banking from Boudica.

So you're saying Ironworks and then Cristo in Ulundi is much faster than Cristo in Furville?

I'll give you some figures on this in a minute.

A theater would be one turn quicker and then we will have some of the happiness add-ons that you delineated for Ulundi.

Theater doesn't bring any happiness without dyes or the culture slider.

No reason not to try, but we'd have to win four of four.

If you promote the treb to accuracy, it will improve our chances a bit. After airship attack on Camul, all battles will be 90%+. If you get unlucky and lose a unit or 2, bring in reinforcements from Gergovia.

 

[Cactus Pete]

They wont help much for Domination but they will help for Diplo. Thanks, didn't know that regarding Diplo (and still don't understand, but will act accordingly).

Yeah, we can always extort Banking from Boudica. Exactly.
I'll give you some figures on this in a minute. Awaiting figures.

Theater doesn't bring any happiness without dyes or the culture slider. I'll look at this again when I resume. Perhaps a longbow would be best.

What's this about? You giving me a prisoner's ID?

If you promote the treb to accuracy, it will improve our chances a bit. After airship attack on Camul, all battles will be 90%+. If you get unlucky and lose a unit or 2, bring in reinforcements from Gergovia.

Will try.

Thoughts on best location for West Point?

 

[leif erikson]

Lots of good advice, though not all of it is in agreement.

I agree with what you have laid out above.

Good Luck!

 

[leif erikson]

Thoughts on best location for West Point?

How about in Oporto after the LB or the Theater?

 

[ShannonCT]

Thanks, didn't know that regarding Diplo (and still don't understand, but will act accordingly).

More population = more votes. Looking back at your list of GOTM wins, I can see you're not fond of Diplo victories.

Awaiting figures.

It seems it hardly makes a difference. Furville can get Cristo 1 turns faster than Ulundi can get IW and Cristo, as long as Furville prioritizes hammers (workshops) over commerce (furs). So starting R&R in Ulundi sounds good.

What's this about? You giving me a prisoner's ID?

Ah, that was just a leftover quote starter that I didn't use.

Thoughts on best location for West Point?

If we're just looking for a place to get it done before the end, Stoneville works. You can start starving Stoneville by working a mine instead of a coast.

 

[Cactus Pete]

How about in Oporto after the LB or the Theater?

Seems to be no barracks required so that's a possibility, but would want to put it in a city with a barracks to gain benefit or is the timing of its completion too late?

Can play soon. Still awaiting SCT's figures on speed to CR, Ulundi vs Furville. Will do my own calculation in the interim. If Ulundi is best, then WP in Fur; if Fur is best, then perhaps WP in Ulundi after Ironwks.

 

[Cactus Pete]

More population = more votes. Looking back at your list of GOTM wins, I can see you're not fond of Diplo victories. Yes, my experience with negotiated outcomes is non-existent.

It seems it hardly makes a difference. Furville can get Cristo 1 turns faster than Ulundi can get IW and Cristo, as long as Furville prioritizes hammers (workshops) over commerce (furs). So starting R&R in Ulundi sounds good. Will do.

Ah, that was just a leftover quote starter that I didn't use. That's a relief.

If we're just looking for a place to get it done before the end, Stoneville works. You can start starving Stoneville by working a mine instead of a coast.

See post above.

Opening game and starting play, but will check back very soon.

 

[ShannonCT]

Can play soon. Still awaiting SCT's figures on speed to CR, Ulundi vs Furville. Will do my own calculation in the interim. If Ulundi is best, then WP in Fur; if Fur is best, then perhaps WP in Ulundi after Ironwks.

I think Ulundi's going to be needed to produce wonders full-time, so if you're looking to get some use out of WP, Ulundi is not the place to build it.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Checking in as promised. Played turn and part of next. Here's report, some of which may replicate some old stuff.

Turn 190:
Caesar completes U of Sank,
Change Oporto to longbow.
Camulo attack fails, leaving one badly damaged HA defending
Advance on Tolosa
Move an airship to within range of Nurembg

IBT:
Steel > MM
473 gold from U of Sank

191:
Camul and Tolosa fall
Boudica still won't capitulate, but now offers Aachen for Peace . . . hmmn
Several additonal units now defending Nuremburg, so have to hold off attack and get another airship within range
Spy reports Gaul is only defended by longbow and praet

Continuing to play out this turn.
Here is a mid-turn save if interested: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=197435&stc=1&d=1229457856

 

[ShannonCT]

Boudica is collapsing. It would be nice if we could take Vienne and then get her to give us Aachen for capitulation. Bibracte would be a much better city without Vienne's borders in the way. Vermalion is not very important. Right now, capitulation from Boudica is redded out and if you mouse over it, it says "we are afraid of your enemies". In other words, she doesn't want to capitulate while we're at war with Charlemagne. Let's try to take Nuremburg soon with the help of as many airships as we can muster (they can be rebased to Agra and Varanasi) and get a CF with Charlemagne so Boudica wont be afraid to capitulate.

 

[leif erikson]

It looks to me like Univ of Sankore is in Cumae. It is on the list...

 

[Cactus Pete]

Reporting in (no problems with crashing or low graphics setting).

Rest of turn 191:

Find U of Sank to be in Rome
Have to delay Ironworks in Ulundi to finish another forge
Start Forb Pallace in Coimbra
GG used to upgrade cuir
Fighting is not breaking our way

IBT:

Hinduism spreads to Tolosa
Pericles asks for Nationalism and is refused

192:

Start WPoint in Oporto
Ironworks in Ulundi
Attack on Nuremburg is thwarted, so I get a cease fire with Charlemagne (which I plan to break next turn)
Read in above thread that SCT wanted Vienne to free Bibracte. So did I, but IBT more units came into city than I had attackers available, so I went ahead and got capitulation with Aachen included
Spy reports Antium defended by 1lb, 2 praets, and 3 cats (Rome does not seem to have that many units. Should we be skeptical of this?)

Going to play some more much later tonight (even try to finish).

For consultation:

Can't get Boudica to trade Banking (wouldn't give it in capitualtion deal either), so thinking of researching it after MM. Other ideas? We do have several CR2 and 3 maces that have survived.

Looks like I've still got to wait two turns to switch out fo Pacifism. Please confirm that.

Am I correct that there are no HRE cities that are critical? It's just a matter of getting him to capitulate? (Obviously I've about finalized the decision to go for something other than Dom'n. Once I found out how useful airships are and that they can be docked in vassal cities, this tipped the balance significantly in my mind.)

Are we still in need of a GPriest?

When the GM arrives in Marbleville and our GA ends, plan is to immediately use the GSpy with the GM to start another GA. Any concerns about that?

Interim save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=197448&stc=1&d=1229466793

 

[leif erikson]

Reporting in (no problems with crashing or low graphics setting).

Can't get Boudica to trade Banking (wouldn't give it in capitualtion deal either), so thinking of researching it after MM. Other ideas? We do have several CR2 and 3 maces that have survived.

I think we can only demand a resource from her, not techs. Unless someone else researchs it and is willing to give it, I guess we'll have to research it.

Looks like I've still got to wait two turns to switch out fo Pacifism. Please confirm that.

That is what I calculate.

Am I correct that there are no HRE cities that are critical? It's just a matter of getting him to capitulate? (Obviously I've about finalized the decision to go for something other than Dom'n. Once I found out how useful airships are and that they can be docked in vassal cities, this tipped the balance significantly in my mind.)

I don't see any wonders built in his cities, so unless we need space (tiles) for Aachen, I see no requirements.

Are we still in need of a GPriest?

Yes, the Masjid-Al-Haram has not been built in Hun yet.

When the GM arrives in Marbleville and our GA ends, plan is to immediately use the GSpy with the GM to start another GA. Any concerns about that?

We have a Great Artist and a Great Spy which I thought we were using for the Golden Age and we were saving the Great Merchant for Cereal Mills, unless we are using the Great Artist for Civilized Jewelers? Then use of the Great Merchant is OK.

EDIT - Actually, we will get another Great Merchant when we research Economics.

 

[ShannonCT]

should we be worried about culture pressure from Prague flipping Aachen? That would be my only concern about quick capitulation of HRE.