SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[ShannonCT]

The choice of a second worker vs a settler comes up in most of my games, and I've found that the second worker is usually the better tactic because, though the settler is delayed, the second worker can help chop him quickly and when he settles you have an extra worker who is badly needed to improve the tiles of two cities and then to chop. (The benefits of two cities just doesn't kick in too powerfully in most cases without improved tiles, but establishing on a plains hill might tip this the other way. Of course, if we need an axe soon an earliest second city may be required. Do you have any more play time available to look at this?) In any event, I think we should hold off deciding on our second city site until after BW is researched.

I tried this out and I think your instinct is right. The first worker can chop the second, and then both can chop the settler. The settler is only delayed by 1 turn, and we'll have two workers.

 

[Mad Professor]

I tried this out and I think your instinct is right. The first worker can chop the second, and then both can chop the settler. The settler is only delayed by 1 turn, and we'll have two workers.

And less forests - but double worker power is significant early on. Sounds good.

 

[ShannonCT]

Made a new save with Shaka in the proper place. Played it through the first 19 turns.

Sorry, the Scout is 1-tile off...

Should get to do some trials in the morning. For now, off to

If we can get a look at every tile around Zulu in the real game, maybe mimicking it the practice game will allow us to predict Shaka's exact build sequence. If we knew that we could pick off a settler and then have a shot at the capital, it might be worth delaying Oracle by a few turns.

 

[leif erikson]

If we can get a look at every tile around Zulu in the real game, maybe mimicking it the practice game will allow us to predict Shaka's exact build sequence. If we knew that we could pick off a settler and then have a shot at the capital, it might be worth delaying Oracle by a few turns.

I played around with the practice save this morning a bit. The answer I came up with to this is to research Writing before Bronze Working to allow an early open borders. I have not decided whether this is the best course yet, but it is an option.

Perhaps if you play tested this option as well, we might find a way to work it in?

It will be easy to change the map once we know.

The risk, of course, is that Shaka sends a settler pair while we are in open borders, but a quick declaration could fix that.

 

[ShannonCT]

I played around with the practice save this morning a bit. The answer I came up with to this is to research Writing before Bronze Working to allow an early open borders. I have not decided whether this is the best course yet, but it is an option.

Perhaps if you play tested this option as well, we might find a way to work it in?

It will be easy to change the map once we know.

The risk, of course, is that Shaka sends a settler pair while we are in open borders, but a quick declaration could fix that.

I wouldn't recommend researching Writing first just to get open borders. Hopefully our scout will be able to see most/all of Zulu territory by finding some hills around Zulu borders.

I'm not too worried about Shaka encroaching on our territory. We can always block him in at the isthmus. AI wont usually send settlers by galley until after turn 100, unless they have no other choice. The most important thing with Shaka is preventing him from hooking metal. Without metal, he'll be helpless against swords/cats/elephants. So we need to locate any metal over there and position our warrior (and later an axeman) next to it to pick off any workers that try to hook it. So it's a) capture worker when it appears, b) back off and get a Cease Fire ASAP, c) repeat.

 

[leif erikson]

I wouldn't recommend researching Writing first just to get open borders. Hopefully our scout will be able to see most/all of Zulu territory by finding some hills around Zulu borders.

The combination of the Gold Hill and a Library can't hurt. Also, getting a Library built allows us to begin hiring a Scientist, which helps to speed things up a bit. In some ways, Open Borders may be icing...

 

[Cactus Pete]

I tried this out and I think your instinct is right. The first worker can chop the second, and then both can chop the settler. The settler is only delayed by 1 turn, and we'll have two workers.

I anticipated that the delay would be more than 1 turn. This leaves little doubt about the best course of action.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I wouldn't recommend researching Writing first just to get open borders. Yes, the worker/worker/then settler sequence is much more powerful with chopping. I'd be very reluctant to give that up, especially if copper is not in our fat cross. Hopefully our scout will be able to see most/all of Zulu territory by finding some hills around Zulu borders.

I'm not too worried about Shaka encroaching on our territory. We can always block him in at the isthmus. AI wont usually send settlers by galley until after turn 100, unless they have no other choice. Concur. The most important thing with Shaka is preventing him from hooking metal. Without metal, he'll be helpless against swords/cats/elephants. So we need to locate any metal over there and position our warrior (and later an axeman) next to it to pick off any workers that try to hook it. Be nice to keep him from hooking up horses as well -- chariots eat axes in Bts. So it's a) capture worker when it appears, b) back off and get a Cease Fire ASAP, Won't it be hard to get a cease fire with a warmonger without killing a unit or two?c) repeat.

Hope it will be that easy. I anticipate the need for an axe.

 

[Cactus Pete]

The combination of the Gold Hill and a Library can't hurt. Also, getting a Library built allows us to begin hiring a Scientist, which helps to speed things up a bit. In some ways, Open Borders may be icing...

Repeating myself: It's hard to get a library built fast without BW and chopping.

 

[leif erikson]

Repeating myself: It's hard to get a library built fast without BW and chopping.

Suryavarman II builds Library at double production speed.
In the test game, the Library required 5 turns.

I played the test to turn 76. Lost the Oracle by 4 turns.

 

[ShannonCT]

Suryavarman II builds Library at double production speed.
In the test game, the Library required 5 turns.

I played the test to turn 76. Lost the Oracle by 4 turns.

You're right. My tests reveal that researching Writing before BW does allow library to be built earlier, but only if the first settler is delayed. I don't think we want to do that. If we want to build warrior, workboat, and settler (and perhaps worker) before library, then Writing first doesn't help. So I don't see any reason to do Writing first now. The case is pretty strong for BW now and building warrior-workboat-warrior(for 1 turn until Pop3)-worker-settler-libary. First worker chops second and then both chop settler. Library can be built quickly afterwards with no chops (we want to grow to Pop5 before hiring 2 scientists anyway).

I was also trying out some different paths to Oracle. The fastest I've found is to skip Sailing-Masonry and to follow Writing with Wheel-Math-Myst-Medi-Preist-CoL. The bottleneck is not building the Oracle, but researching CoL. Building Oracle without marble will require 3 forests. If a third city is settled around turn 65, Oracle comes IBT71-72. If no third city is settled until turn 70 or so, Oracle comes IBT70-71. Or, a third city can be settled ealier and not delay Oracle if we earn ~50 gold by whipping and chopping a warrior when 1 turn from completion, thus converting the overflow hammers into gold (as in SGOTM06).

Either way, an important MM point here is that we want to be able to run at 100% research after the academy is built and through to CoL. If that means turning research down to 0% for a turn before the academy comes, so be it.

If we delay Sailing-Masonry to get Oracle faster, we can research those two techs after CS-slingshot, and use the advantage of Bureaucracy to whip the lighthouse and chop the GLH faster. GLH comes around turn 80.

I'm looking at the graphs of CRC, and thinking that they probably pulled off the CS-slingshot by turn 71. Their score has spiked on their last set, and they don't have the power to have taken a city from Shaka. Maybe they got it IBT70-71 and paused for discussion. I'm feeling like IBT70-71 is a pretty safe date to shoot for, but 5 turns later is starting to get risky.

 

[leif erikson]

You're right.

The bottleneck is not building the Oracle, but researching CoL. Building Oracle without marble will require 3 forests.

Yes, it sure is. This is one of the reasons I had hoped to speed up research a bit with Library and using Scientist(s).

Either way, an important MM point here is that we want to be able to run at 100% research after the academy is built and through to CoL. If that means turning research down to 0% for a turn before the academy comes, so be it.

Concur. I ended up at 90% for too long.

If we delay Sailing-Masonry to get Oracle faster, we can research those two techs after CS-slingshot, and use the advantage of Bureaucracy to whip the lighthouse and chop the GLH faster. GLH comes around turn 80.

I think TGLighthouse will be very important in this game. I still haven't given up on Pyramids either.

I'm feeling like IBT70-71 is a pretty safe date to shoot for, but 5 turns later is starting to get risky.

My testing confirms your feelings. Anytime we get to 75-plus turns, we're on thin ice!

In my test, the Zulu's are pretty placid for quite a time but around turn 70-75, they begin to take off. It will be important to see what the map looks like in their area. They like to build units!! I parked my Scout on the hill between their cities and watched.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Suryavarman II builds Library at double production speed. Didn't realize that.
In the test game, the Library required 5 turns.

Then it's certainly a high priority, but BW before Writing gives us fexibility that I'm loath to sacrifice.

This game, at least in the beginning, looks like it will reward a nice mix of clever fighting and optimal development, not sure about diplomacy.

No one has responded to my query about when random events start. Surely testing has provided some info on that.

 

[Mad Professor]

My testing confirms your feelings. Anytime we get to 75-plus turns, we're on thin ice!

Don't like thin ice. Let's see if we can get that Oracle around the T71 mark.

A question - how likely is Shaka to found a religion? Not very likely I would have thought, but I just guess...

I think TGLighthouse will be very important in this game. I still haven't given up on Pyramids either.

I keep thinking that the ultimate pyramids scenario is some kind AI building it for us nearby...

 

[leif erikson]

I keep thinking that the ultimate pyramids scenario is some kind AI building it for us nearby...

You may be right! Or, it could be built half-way across the map and we may need Astronomy to get to it. I guess we need to weigh the risk of that happening versus our need to have it?

 

[Mad Professor]

Interestingly Misfits have the same score and culture hike as CRC. They have a much higher power though. Did they attack Shaka, or get the Oracle - or both?

 

[ShannonCT]

Wont it be hard to get peace with a warmonger without killing a unit or two? ... Hope it will be that easy. I anticipate the need for an axe.

When we declare war, Shaka will decide what kind of war he wants. If he decides he doesn't want war, he should be willing to take a cease-fire after 8 turns. If he decides that he's strong enough to acheive something in the war, we would have to do some damage to get a cease fire. If we can keep him stuck with archers, he'll be less likely to assign units attack orders, and therefore be more likely to accept cease fires.

 

[ShannonCT]

Interestingly Misfits have the same score and culture hike as CRC. They have a much higher power though. Did they attack Shaka, or get the Oracle - or both?

Keep in mind that AH, mining, hunting, BW, wheel and math total 24 power points (sailing is 2 more). And population is worth half a point each (rounded down). Warriors are worth 2 points each and axemen 6. Each barracks is 3 points. So they couldn't have more than 2 axemen.

CRC could have at most 1 axeman.

 

[DJMGator13]

Work & RL have been keeping me way too busy recently, more than I expected. I'm hoping that changes within the next few days and then I'll try to catch up. If not, I'll just watch.

 

[ShannonCT]

No one has responded to my query about when random events start. Surely testing has provided some info on that.

According to GlobalDefines.xml, they start at turn 20.

<Define>
<DefineName>FIRST_EVENT_DELAY_TURNS</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>20</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>

The way the events work is that at the beginning of the game, each event is either included or excluded as a possibility, based on a the probability of each. In the ancient era, there is a 1% chance each turn of that one of the eligible random events happens, based on a weighting of each event.