SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[leif erikson]

Then it would seem foolish not to try this. Whether we want to build axe(s) ASAP may depend on availability of copper to Shaka and perhaps how successfully we can learn what lies beyond Zululand after Open Borders.

Concur. Even if we simply keep trying to pick off Workers and, if we can see them, any Settler that Shaka tries to send out. At least until Ballista Elephants (our UU) are available. I believe they require HBR and Construction.

btw, did you see the special building? Replaces the Aqueduct and provides an extra food plus health!

 

[killercane]

Well after looking at it we can build an axe every turn once the capital is in bureaucracy at size 8 (w/confu). So an initial axe or two to hold the pass will suffice, and we just keep them from hooking up the horses or copper/iron if they have it. Then the next goal would be from 1000 BC to 1 AD is eliminate Shaka and find others. If we wait this late, we have to research cats, but I think the removal of Zulu is both necessary and beneficial in hammers.

I think we can add some pop and workers and up to 4 Shaka cities in this manner. If we build marble city and Pig city, we should have 8 at 1 AD, and I think that is a nice number to shoot for, enough to make some galleys, have some cities making wonders, and have the capital continuing to grow and produce science.

So I would propose the following goals:

1000 BC- now that slingshot is done, concentrate on removal of Shaka with the LEAST amount of hammers expended. Increase science rate via TGL and Education. Find everyone!

1 AD- get Oxford built by 500 AD! This depends on attaining the pop to whip unis in the places that can grow well, a la marble city.

 

[Cactus Pete]

kc, I like your basic plan (although I'd hope to find others before 1000AD) Let's concentrated on the immediate details (which, of course, is where the devils are no doubt hiding).

 

[Frederiksberg]

I'm back from Berlin. I haven't read up on the thread and don't have much time to do this before Tuesday evening so if someone else is ready to play we could swap.

What happened to the tests of long term strategy?

 

[leif erikson]

I'm back from Berlin. I haven't read up on the thread and don't have much time to do this before Tuesday evening so if someone else is ready to play we could swap.

@rrau or JT,
Can either of you swap with Fred?

What happened to the tests of long term strategy?

Sorry, we have not done them yet. We have been focused on the here and now, and up to 80 to 100 turns.

I agree we need to look ahead and figure out some values for E(t)/t.

 

[ShannonCT]

I was testing Shaka's behavior today. I wanted to see the difference between worker stealing from Shaka, and not.

If we declare war on Shaka to worker steal, and he doesn't have horses or copper hooked, he starts spamming archers. Normally, AI try to keep two archers in each city, with the UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE script. But after declaring on Shaka, he started building archers with UNITAI_ATTACK, UNITAI_RESERVE, and even UNITAI_ATTACK_CITY scripts. In other words, he was both preparing to defend his territory against invaders, and press the attack on us. Later, after getting a cease fire and then declaring war again with a stack of axes, his capital contained 5 archers of all different scripts. He knew it was foolish to attack axemen with archers, so he just sat there. If we had waited sufficiently long enough, he might have started to spread out those extra archers among new cities or as scouts. The quick redeclaration after a cease fire doomed my stack.

If we don't try to worker steal from Shaka until we are really ready to go to war, it's a different story. He will keep two UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE archers in each city (maybe even one for some time) and build other things until he has hooked copper or horse. I noticed that there was a span of 5-10 turns when he sent out his second settler that the capital was guarded by only 1 archer. But this might have been because his two other cities were a buffer between me and him. I tried taking away his copper in Worldbuilder. Without any axemen or impi to build, he started building Stonehenge in the capital while waiting to connect horses. At this time, I declared war on him with 6 axes, skirting his third city and beelining for the capital. On the turn I was ready to attack, his first chariot was completed, but didn't attack (I dont think it could). It was 6 axes vs. 2 archers and a chariot. I took the city losing 2 axes.

It seems to me that we have two possible strategies here.

1) If we find copper in Shaka's territory, we have to prevent him from hooking it. We should worker steal at every opportunity, and send 1-2 axemen to supplement the initial warrior. We can look for opportunities to get quick cease fires, so we can worker steal multiple times. Oracle and GLH wont be delayed, and we can take down Shaka's archer army with Ballistas and cats.

2) If we find no copper in Shaka's territory (and think that he wont hook iron), we could consider not worker stealing. If he doesn't build a city near the horses, they wont be in his borders until turn 50, which means he probably wont hook them until turn 60. Even if he does hook horses, a single spear in an axe stack is good protection, especially with all of the forests around. If six units can head directly for the capital around turn 60, they would have a good chance of taking it. This plan would most likely delay Oracle and GLH by a few turns. And we wouldn't have the benefit of extra workers. If the RNG is cruel, it will set us back quite a few turns.


Once we get a complete picture of Shaka's territory, we can rework the map and probably figure out exactly what units he will have on a given turn, and where he will place his first and second settlers. In the meantime, I suggest we go ahead with Wheel. I've figured out a sequence to get the capital to Pop6 on the same turn as library is built, to get the second city's ivory and cows improved quickly, and to build an axe to send Shaka's way.

 

[killercane]

This is why I propose doing Construction and some cats. We dont need any elephants unless some city does them in one turn (in order to have the cheapest upgrade to Curassiers). Zulu war can be fought with 8-10 axe and 3-4 cats. This is enough to take 3 cities off him including capital, and once healed, the rest as long as WW doesnt set in too badly.

Another benefit of the Zulu war is we can build Heroic Epic after our first Great General in the PH city, and it can also produce units every turn like chariots or horse archers for upgrade to Curassiers.

Looking at the test game, Zulu was easy to reduce to a couple cities with axe/cats, and those cities and their valuable pop allowed getting Oxford at 650 AD for 330 bpt. In the previous test game, with more overseas trade with more AIs, I was getting 300 bpt without Oxford, 400+ with in that time frame.

 

[ShannonCT]

This is why I propose doing Construction and some cats. We dont need any elephants unless some city does them in one turn (in order to have the cheapest upgrade to Curassiers). Zulu war can be fought with 8-10 axe and 3-4 cats. This is enough to take 3 cities off him including capital, and once healed, the rest as long as WW doesnt set in too badly.

My thinking behind using ballistas was that they would probably be the best bang for the buck in terms of hammers (since they are quite unlikely to die against archers), that they would cost us less maintenance and supply since we can use fewer of them, and that having some experienced ballistas will give us some experienced curassiers later.

The obvious drawback is that we can't build them until we have HBR and Construction. In my practice games, I have followed the CS-Slingshot with Sailing, Masonry, Pottery, Construction, HBR. With GLH built right after Masonry, Construction takes 5 turns and HBR 3. Waiting for ballistas will delay the attack 5-10 turns.

 

[leif erikson]

I was testing Shaka's behavior today. I wanted to see the difference between worker stealing from Shaka, and not.

If we declare war on Shaka to worker steal, and he doesn't have horses or copper hooked, he starts spamming archers. Normally, AI try to keep two archers in each city, with the UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE script. But after declaring on Shaka, he started building archers with UNITAI_ATTACK, UNITAI_RESERVE, and even UNITAI_ATTACK_CITY scripts. In other words, he was both preparing to defend his territory against invaders, and press the attack on us.

Interesting! If his programming is to leave 2 Archers in the city while preparing to attack (How do you tell the difference between who is for defense and who is for attack?) with the rest, can we figure out a way to get the Archers that are designated to attack to leave for our borders? If so, it seems to me that we could wipe them out with an ambush somewhere, destroying those units he pop-rushed his population away for. That would cut down on the units we would face when we head for the capital with promoted units?
Or is this a pipe dream?

1) If we find copper in Shaka's territory, we have to prevent him from hooking it. We should worker steal at every opportunity, and send 1-2 axemen to supplement the initial warrior. We can look for opportunities to get quick cease fires, so we can worker steal multiple times. Oracle and GLH wont be delayed, and we can take down Shaka's archer army with Ballistas and cats.

My initial reaction is that I like this way of handling it. The most important thing is that it doesn't delay Oracle. If we can keep Shaka primitive, then he should be easier to take later. The only problem I see is if we want him to build cities for us, although the AI doesn't always place them in the most intelligent manner...

Once we get a complete picture of Shaka's territory, we can rework the map and probably figure out exactly what units he will have on a given turn, and where he will place his first and second settlers. In the meantime, I suggest we go ahead with Wheel. I've figured out a sequence to get the capital to Pop6 on the same turn as library is built, to get the second city's ivory and cows improved quickly, and to build an axe to send Shaka's way.

Glad to hear.

EDIT - Somewhere in the queues, we need to try to get a Work Boat out scouting as well. We need to meet some other civs, so we can figure out where they are for eventual...

 

[ShannonCT]

Interesting! If his programming is to leave 2 Archers in the city while preparing to attack (How do you tell the difference between who is for defense and who is for attack?) with the rest, can we figure out a way to get the Archers that are designated to attack to leave for our borders? If so, it seems to me that we could wipe them out with an ambush somewhere, destroying those units he pop-rushed his population away for. That would cut down on the units we would face when we head for the capital with promoted units?
Or is this a pipe dream?

In Worldbuilder, there is a unit editor tool. Click on the button with the circle icon and then click on an AI unit. You can see what script each unit was built with, and even change it if you like. I think you'll find 2 UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE archers in each city, and any others will have other scripts. You can test the behavior of these archers (like which ones can you bait with a worker, warrior, or scout). Maybe leaving our PH city empty would draw out ATTACK archers. My bag of warmongering tricks is not as full as others here.

EDIT - Somewhere in the queues, we need to try to get a Work Boat out scouting as well. We need to meet some other civs, so we can figure out where they are for eventual...

I've been using a build order in the capital of worker-settler/workboat(w/queue swapping)-axeman-library-workboat. First workboat nets clams to be worked at Pop5. Second workboat heads north and looks for other AI. Build order in PH city is warrior-warrior-workboat. I'm building 2 warriors in PH city before connecting it to copper, for cheap MPs. The workboat can explore to the west.

 

[killercane]

My thinking behind using ballistas was that they would probably be the best bang for the buck in terms of hammers (since they are quite unlikely to die against archers), that they would cost us less maintenance and supply since we can use fewer of them, and that having some experienced ballistas will give us some experienced curassiers later.

The obvious drawback is that we can't build them until we have HBR and Construction. In my practice games, I have followed the CS-Slingshot with Sailing, Masonry, Pottery, Construction, HBR. With GLH built right after Masonry, Construction takes 5 turns and HBR 3. Waiting for ballistas will delay the attack 5-10 turns.

Well ballistas are alright, but for every 2 we can have 3 axes +15 hammers (a cat with overflow and 35 hpt which we will have with bureau). With civ 4's wildly inconsistent combat results, I would rather have numbers. A CR1 axe is 61% vs. an archer in a city, isnt an elephant something like 75%?

The axes will be ready by the time Construction comes in. We use the extra hammers from growing to size 6-7 to have the barracks in place, and with 2 early axes and an axe per turn while researching construction, we have 5 more. With a couple from city #2, we should have 9, and only rely on building cats when construction comes in. So we are ready with a stack about 6-8 turns after construction, depending on if we get a cat from city #2 and 3 in 2 turns each from the capital.

 

[killercane]

Interesting! If his programming is to leave 2 Archers in the city while preparing to attack (How do you tell the difference between who is for defense and who is for attack?) with the rest, can we figure out a way to get the Archers that are designated to attack to leave for our borders? If so, it seems to me that we could wipe them out with an ambush somewhere, destroying those units he pop-rushed his population away for. That would cut down on the units we would face when we head for the capital with promoted units?
Or is this a pipe dream?


My initial reaction is that I like this way of handling it. The most important thing is that it doesn't delay Oracle. If we can keep Shaka primitive, then he should be easier to take later. The only problem I see is if we want him to build cities for us, although the AI doesn't always place them in the most intelligent manner...


Glad to hear.

EDIT - Somewhere in the queues, we need to try to get a Work Boat out scouting as well. We need to meet some other civs, so we can figure out where they are for eventual...

We certainly need to work that workboat in and hope it isnt killed by a barb galley! 5 star need I think.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Hey guys,

I'm about to post in the maintenance thread to be removed from this sgotm.

I've got limited playtime available and my interest has been drawn away from CIV4 lately, so I'm taking a break/retiring.

It's been fun playing in the past two SGOTMs - Xteam has a great playstyle.

Keep up the good work and I wish you guys all the best.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Hey guys,

I'm about to post in the maintenance thread to be removed from this sgotm.

JT will be missed.

"Once we get a complete picture of Shaka's territory, we can rework the map and probably figure out exactly what units he will have on a given turn, and where he will place his first and second settlers. In the meantime, I suggest we go ahead with Wheel. I've figured out a sequence to get the capital to Pop6 on the same turn as library is built, to get the second city's ivory and cows improved quickly, and to build an axe to send Shaka's way." Sounds good.

 

[leif erikson]

Hey guys,

I'm about to post in the maintenance thread to be removed from this sgotm.

Very sorry to hear this.

A break is not a bad thing and we hope you will be back to join us for another one sometime. You are always welcome here.

Thanks for all your contributions and we shall miss you.

Take care JT.

 

[rrau]

I can take it and post a plan tonight and it can be refined tomorrow and I'm off on Wednesday, so could play then if plan is good to go.


Plan: Play 10 turns (stop earlier if something unexpected happens or meet new people)

Research: Finish wheel (5 turns) -> writing

Workers: Keep 1st worker where he's at and prechop 2 turns then move to another forest tile adjacent to copper and prechop. Worker 2 is due in 3 and will send to the third forest tile adjacent to the copper and prechop - likely only one turn (and only if after workboat is settled I can try to get the worker out in 2 otherwise I won't be able to prechop with it and will just send it to stand on the tile it will road). When on last turn of wheel, both workers move....One to copper hill and one to forest hill and both start roading as soon as possible.

Scout: Send to west of Shaka while researching wheel.

Build: Finish worker then I'll need Shannon CT's build order he worked out on how to get library and pop 6 on same turn....Likely need to start following MM plan my turnset for this to happen.

 

[ShannonCT]

rrau, I think the consensus was to spend one forest on the worker and two on the settler. (Someone protest if I'm wrong.) All others can be saved until after Math, unless we want to use one more to speed up a library, axe, or workboat.

So my worker plan is to chop the current forest to get the second worker on turn 32. On turn 32, one worker goes to forest 1W of capital, and the other goes to forest 1SW of capital. On turn 35, both chops finish. On turn 36, one worker moves to copper hill and one prebuilds road 1SW of capital. On turn 37, worker on copper starts a road and other moves west toward ivory, without finishing the road he was prebuilding. The copper roading worker can finish the prebuilt road on turn 39. PH city will be founded on turn 39, and the ivory camp can be started on the same turn, with a worker having moved there on turn 38 (but see caveat below). On turn 40, the road building worker can prechop the forested plains hill for two turns. Both workers can start the cow pasture on turn 44, when the borders of PH city expand.

I've been revolting to slavery on turn 37, but haven't been whipping til after CS-slingshot, so maybe it's better to save revolt til Bureaucracy revolt.

In the capital, the prebuilt warrior can be deleted. Five hammers lost is no biggie. Worker build should be followed by settler for one turn to capture the overflow from chop. On turn 33, switch to workboat and work fish instead of copper. On turn 35, switch back to settler and working copper, and complete the two chops into the settler. On turn 36, settler will be 1 turn from completion, so complete it on turn 37. Continue with workboat on turn 38, and work fish instead of copper to get to Pop4. After workboat finishes, net the clams and start on an axe.

A couple caveats:

When you net the fish, the city governor may switch a citizen from goldmine to fish. I think we want to work the goldmine continuously.

Sending a worker to the ivory a turn before PH city is built carries a risk of a two-move animal killing the worker. If this risk is unacceptable, either the warrior can go back to fogbust on turn 38, or we can build a grass mine 2SW of capital instead of the camp first, building the camp after the cow pasture.

 

[leif erikson]

rrau, I think the consensus was to spend one forest on the worker and two on the settler. (Someone protest if I'm wrong.) All others can be saved until after Math, unless we want to use one more to speed up a library, axe, or workboat.

Concur, I think this has worked best.

I've been revolting to slavery on turn 37, but haven't been whipping til after CS-slingshot, so maybe it's better to save revolt til Bureaucracy revolt.

I would save the revolt until after CS-sling. If for no other reason than to make sure we avoid the Slave revolt as it risks 2 population if we're short on cash.

In a test game I got it and it wasn't pleasant.

Sending a worker to the ivory a turn before PH city is built carries a risk of a two-move animal killing the worker. If this risk is unacceptable, either the warrior can go back to fogbust on turn 38, or we can build a grass mine 2SW of capital instead of the camp first, building the camp after the cow pasture.

Placing a camp on the Ivory isn't required immediately so as to risk the Worker. Would it be worth working to connect the Gold Hill to keep the capital happy?

Also, I can't remember where the Warrior currently is?
Does the Warrior need to be moved to get ready to preposition for taking out a Worker from Shaka?
@Shannon - I played around a bit with Worker steal on the practice save and lost my Warrior to an Archer. Danged RNG!
What will be the best way to approach this?
Or is that for the next turn set?

 

[Cactus Pete]

rrau, I think the consensus was to spend one forest on the worker and two on the settler. (Someone protest if I'm wrong.) All others can be saved until after Math, unless we want to use one more to speed up a library, axe, or workboat. My bias is not to bend over backwards to save forests for Math. The leverage from getting things built early usually more than offsets the loss of hammers.

So my worker plan is to chop the current forest to get the second worker on turn 32. On turn 32, one worker goes to forest 1W of capital, and the other goes to forest 1SW of capital. On turn 35, both chops finish. On turn 36, one worker moves to copper hill and one prebuilds road 1SW of capital. On turn 37, worker on copper starts a road and other moves west toward ivory, without finishing the road he was prebuilding. The copper roading worker can finish the prebuilt road on turn 39. PH city will be founded on turn 39, and the ivory camp can be started on the same turn, with a worker having moved there on turn 38 (but see caveat below). On turn 40, the road building worker can prechop the forested plains hill for two turns. Both workers can start the cow pasture on turn 44, when the borders of PH city expand.Generally like the plan, but I'd ask that you try to come up with a sequence that does not waste worker turns getting onto, then off, then back onto the plains hill.

I've been revolting to slavery on turn 37, but haven't been whipping til after CS-slingshot, so maybe it's better to save revolt til Bureaucracy revolt. Concur.

In the capital, the prebuilt warrior can be deleted. You sure? Five hammers is not much, but we will have a use for another warrior as an MP. Here, perhaps, is a case where an extra chop might pay for itself in a cheaper MP and/or an extra warrior to help with worker stealing. (not suggesting delaying the settler) Five hammers lost is no biggie. Worker build should be followed by settler for one turn to capture the overflow from chop. On turn 33, switch to workboat and work fish instead of copper. On turn 35, switch back to settler and working copper, and complete the two chops into the settler. On turn 36, settler will be 1 turn from completion, so complete it on turn 37. Continue with workboat on turn 38, and work fish instead of copper to get to Pop4. After workboat finishes, net the clams and start on an axe.

A couple caveats:

When you net the fish, the city governor may switch a citizen from goldmine to fish. I think we want to work the goldmine continuously.

Sending a worker to the ivory a turn before PH city is built carries a risk of a two-move animal killing the worker. If this risk is unacceptable, either the warrior can go back to fogbust on turn 38, or we can build a grass mine What's a grass mine?) 2SW of capital instead of the camp first, building the camp after the cow pasture.

"I would save the revolt until after CS-sling. If for no other reason than to make sure we avoid the Slave revolt as it risks 2 population if we're short on cash." Yes, and when should we prudently raise 10(?) gold for the treasury?

 

[rrau]

rrau, I think the consensus was to spend one forest on the worker and two on the settler. (Someone protest if I'm wrong.) All others can be saved until after Math, unless we want to use one more to speed up a library, axe, or workboat./

It's 3 turns to the worker and takes 3 turns to chop the forest..... How will chopping the worker help? Do you mean to use the overflow for the settler only? I'm not that good at MM, but I just don't see that a forest chop will speed up getting second worker.