SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[ShannonCT]

Please......I just don't see how the galleon near Marbleville can link up in one turn......Unless I use some of the unused movement points to move them this turn.

Sorry, I miscounted. I've diagrammed the moves you can make in the screenie below. Red lines show moves to make to get the galleons in position this turn (and next turn for one of the stacked galleons). Yellow lines show the path of the chain next turn. Once the two loaded galleons near Gergovia unload their cargo, they can also become links in the chain and make the distance between links smaller.

Put the Kremlin in Guimares after airship instead of worker?

Sounds good. We don't want to build workers in cities that can build wonders or units.

"Some things to consider? In two turns we need to get Kremlin started!" Don't we need a 5-promotion unit for that? Why do we need to start in 2 turns?

No, it's West Point that requires a 5-promo unit. We could use our next GG to give 20XPs to a single 7XP Cuirassier.

Are we safe to research Steel before Liberalism?

We already got Lib (and took Radio). Communism->Guilds->Steel will take 6 turns.

Speaking of wonders, what do we want to build right now in Ulundi? Do we want to save it for an extremely expensive one, or should we go theater, Globe, and what will then fit within a time frame?

I'd rather put Ironworks in Ulundi. Ulundi has the potential for the most base hammers of any city (76 during a golden age), so IW would get the most mileage there. If we need more happiness in Ulundi, perhaps a market for 3 more happiness. After Ulundi's GP is born, we should go into max hammer mode there.

 

[leif erikson]

"Some things to consider? In two turns we need to get Kremlin started!" Don't we need a 5-promotion unit for that? Why do we need to start in 2 turns?

Kremlin gives us a 33% discount on cash rushing. If we are going to delay Universal Suffrage for any length of time, building this wonder could also be delayed in favor of more units? All we need to build it is Communism and, iirc, stone speeds it along.

Finishing Kremlin should be timed with our switch to Universal Suffrage.

Forum was down this morning for some time...
Will have a look at the save later when I have more time.

 

[leif erikson]

Just saw this...

We already got Lib (and took Radio). Communism->Guilds->Steel will take 6 turns.

How shall we time the change over of Towns to Workshops around X-ville? Changing over is going to have a pretty dramatic effect on our research rate, won't it? Once we have Steel, we need to get through Corporation, Mass Media, Biology and all the techs in between...

 

[ShannonCT]

Individual city plans:

Xville: cuirassers
Ivoryville: Trebs
Pigville: Hermitage > trebs
Canalville: Frigates
Ulundi: Angkor Wat (GP due in 2 75% chance of GM)
Stoneville: Longbow > wealth
Horseville: cuirassers
Marbleville: Wealth (continue running merchants)
Furville: Theatre > Christo Redentor
Jute: cuirassers
Braga: Eiffel tower
Oporta: University of Sankore
Coimbra: granary > worker
Lisbon: forge > worker
Lago: Frigate > worker
Guimaraes: airship > worker
Evora: worker > harbor
Gergovra: anarchy > airship
Bibracte: anarchy > airship

A few suggestions on builds:
Pigville: airships or frigates are probably best because they don't benefit from barracks. I think we might aim for a grand total of 12 airships. We probably wont be able to use much more than that.
Ulundi: Ankor Wat was built by Augustus last turn. Suggest a market here to give Ulundi the happiness to use all of its tiles. After Steel, I suggest Ironworks.
Stoneville: maybe a frigate instead of wealth
Furville: Could we build a forge here first? We need 3 more forges for IW and a forge will speed Cristo anyway. The three workers at Furville should stay there and continue to build workshops, and then chop forests. The sooner we get Cristo, the better.
Braga: I MMed Braga last turn to get an airship out faster. It should be MMed back to growth mode. It needs several more workshops still.
Coimbra: If we're to build another worker here, it should be done before the granary. You could just take the granary out of the queue.
Lisbon: Advise against building a worker in a city that needs to grow and build wonders. Suggest Broadway after Forge.
Guimaraes: This might be a good place for our 6th forge. And it might be good to start the forge now so Ulundi can build the IW earlier. Don't like a worker here.
Evora: another worker instead? Harbor aren't much use when we're in AI destruction mode.
Bibracte: maybe cannons

After communism workers will finish prebuilt workshops.

Agree with this. We need the hammers more than the beakers now. The worker near Ivoryville can stop what he's doing and finish a workshop for X-ville.

Just saw this...

How shall we time the change over of Towns to Workshops around X-ville? Changing over is going to have a pretty dramatic effect on our research rate, won't it? Once we have Steel, we need to get through Corporation, Mass Media, Biology and all the techs in between...

At our current research rate, we could research Guilds, Banking, Econ, Corp, Demo, Steel, Bio, Commy, Meds, Refrig, and MM in ~30 turns (I assume we can extort DR and Constitution from Gandhi). Converting X-ville's towns (5?) will add a couple turns to this. And our golden age will only last 23 more turns, so that adds a couple more. But capturing more Celtic cities will add more to our research than they take away (captured cities are net positives with State Property). So 30 turns is still a pretty reasonable estimate for getting all the techs we want. Can we complete domination and capture all of the AI wonders in 30 turns? That seems like a reasonable number. We still have to capture all/most of Celtia, the HRE, and India, and at least 3 Roman cities (Great Wall and Ankor are not in Rome). There's a lot more uncertainty with the military aspect of the game right now. It's pretty easy to know what to expect with research and wonder building.

 

[ShannonCT]

Yes, the question is whether/when Vassallage is better than Beaur'y.

The research benefit of Bureacracy is pretty clear. Too much commerce would be lost in X-ville (and 1 commerce lost is 3 beakers lost) to receive a net benefit from the 24 free units.

The XP benefit is hard to evaluate against the hammers lost. X-ville would lose ~25 hammers per turn (after workshops) by not being in Bureau. Being able to build 9XP Cuirs instead of 7XP Cuirs would mean that every Cuir would get a third promo after its first battle, whereas now, only some would.

That's just how I see it, but we may need to be cautious that ww does not take a merchant specialist out of play [in Marbleville]

Since an extended golden age would end 23 turns from now, and it's unlikely that we will finish in 23 turns, it's not a big deal if Marble's GM comes a few turns late, as long as Ulundi gets a GM. If Ulundi gets somthing like a GA or GS that can be used for a golden age, Marble's GM might need to be sent on a trade mission. In that case, there's no time to lose.

 

[ShannonCT]

Did a check on our enabled wonders per turn:

current E(t)/t = 1.135

If we can research all of the techs I suggested a couple posts up in 30 turns, E(t)/t will = 1.256. If it takes us another 5 turns to finish all the wonders and the chosen victory condition, E(t)/t would be 1.227.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sorry for my inattention regarding the Kremlin and Liberalism. Glad the rest of you are keeping things straight.

Do we want to start chopping workshops before we know our next GP is a GM?

How about building a back-up spy in, say, Evora. I believe we're planning to use one to against Gandhi's, and there's certainly good reason to have a back-up?

"If Ulundi gets something like a GA or GS that can be used for a golden age, Marble's GM might need to be sent on a trade mission. In that case, there's no time to lose." How soon could we get the GM from Economics? Is this a viable alternative to sending the marble GM on a trade mission?

 

[ShannonCT]

Do we want to start chopping workshops before we know our next GP is a GM?

I'm not sure I understand the connection.

How about building a back-up spy in, say, Evora. I believe we're planning to use one to against Gandhi's, and there's certainly good reason to have a back-up?

Yes, good point.

How soon could we get the GM from Economics? Is this a viable alternative to sending the marble GM on a trade mission?

If the GP from Ulundi is not a GM, then we could follow Communism with Guilds-Banking-Econ (3-4 turns). If the GP from Ulundi is a GM, then we can save Marble's GM for a golden age.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I'm not sure I understand the connection.
Thinking that without additional cash infusion from a GM trade route, we won't be able to run science at as high a rate for as long a time and/or upgrade units as freely; therefore, would need more commerce available to accomplish the same rate of research and amount of upgrading.

 

[ShannonCT]

Thinking that without additional cash infusion from a GM trade route, we won't be able to run science at as high a rate for as long a time and/or upgrade units as freely; therefore, would need more commerce available to accomplish the same rate of research and amount of upgrading.

OK, I understand. I guess we'll have to wait and see what pops up in Ulundi in a couple turns. There's always the option of following Communism with Guilds-Banking-Econ and using the free GM for a trade mission. We're assured of a GM in Marbleville that can be used for Sushi or Cereal Mills.

 

[leif erikson]

Talking about 30 turns remaining, here are the wonders we have to complete in that time:
Forbidden Palace - 200 hammers
Globe Theater - one more Theater plus Globe - 350 hammers
West Point - unit with +4 experience (good use of Great General btw) - 800 hammer with bonus of stone.
Eiffel Tower - we're working on it.
Braodway - 800 hammers with no bonus
Rock n Roll - 800 hammers with no bonus
Cristo Redentor - 1000 hammers with no bonus
University of Sankore - we're working on it.
Ironworks - 700 hammers plus 2 more forges at 120 hammers each (working on one in Lisbon)
National Park with Biology - 300 hammers
Kremlin - 800 hammers with bonus of Stone
Hollywood - 1000 hammers with no bonus
Uniited Nations - 1000 hammers with no bonus
Civilized Jewelers Inc. - Great Artist, Corporation plus Gold, Gems or Silver.
Red Cross - 600 hammers plus 6 hospitals at 200 hammers each.
Sid's Sushi Co. - Great Merchant plus Corporation plus Crab, Clam, Fish or Rice.

Hope I didn't miss any?

Angor Wat appears to be in Antium. Not sure where Great Wall is?

Looks like we have a lot to do!

 

[rrau]

What about FP in pigville? It's hammer poor, but it's a wonder that won't get stolen from us and with the soon to be switch to state property, it won't matter that it's so close to the capital.

 

[leif erikson]

What about FP in pigville? It's hammer poor, but it's a wonder that won't get stolen from us and with the soon to be switch to state property, it won't matter that it's so close to the capital.

I thought about that but the problem is that you must have a Courthouse in the city that builds the Forbidden Palace and Pigville does not have one. To build another Courthouse requires 120 hammers and, at Pigville, 15 turns.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Hollywood, UN, Rock and Roll . . . to build in 30 turns would require about 30 hammers per turn. Do we have the cities available to accomplish this?

 

[leif erikson]

Hollywood, UN, Rock and Roll . . . to build in 30 turns would require about 30 hammers per turn. Do we have the cities available to accomplish this?

Sure we do!

X-ville and Ulundi will be hammer monsters, especially with Bureaucracy and Iron Works and State Property. Getting Guilds, along with remaining in Caste for as long as possible, will provide additional hammers to our workshops. That is why I asked earlier if we should prioritize our food rich cities, such as Guimaraes, for Worker effort.

Jute and Horseville are also pushing a lot of hammers.

For the most part, I think things are set up fairly well for a final rush for Wonders. Just need to schedule well and be ready to sacrifice both Gold and Population to complete them. We need to plan for the pre-requisites in cities where we want to build things, like Courthouses, Forges and Hospitals.

SCT brings up a good point about victory perhaps being the limiting factor. At what point do we know we have enough units to complete Domination so we can set hammer rich cities like X-ville to work on Wonders? Certainly Ivoryville will never stop producing units, perhaps Horseville, Jute and Canalville too?

We're certainly getting there.
Need to bring this game to a strong finish!

 

[ShannonCT]

Some thoughts on the military situation:

First priority is to destroy Boudica's SOD. If it moves north of Bibracte IBT, we can declare next turn and destroy most of it. If it moves into Vienne IBT, we can also declare next turn, and have 9 Cuirs ready to land at either Gergovia or Bibracte on turn 187. Either way, the stack should be destroyed soon.

From that point, we need to think about capturing more Celtic cities. There is a Cuir in Bibracte that can take a promo next turn. Either that one, or one of the Cuirs on a galleon should take the Medic promo to heal our Cuirs that suffer damage on the attack on Bodica's SOD.

Meanwhile, our frigate can start bombing Tolosa. The two healthy trebs can move toward Vienne with an escort of healthy Cuirs, as soon as they're available. The units that are currently sitting near X-ville could be dropped off next to Camul and perhaps be joined by a healthy Cuir from Gergovia. As our damaged Cuirs heal, they can move toward Vienne and Tolosa and attack ASAP.

Notice that Tolosa, Vienne, and Camul are on flat land, and that their defense bonus is only 40% against Cuirs. We don't need to wait for full bombardment to start attacking. Partial bombardment with airship attacks is just as good. Our other stack near Nuremburg can bombard said city (slowly, with a castle and walls there) and lead with a cat and Cuirs when the odds are good. Cuirs can take out the strong units, and maces can follow. After Nuremburg, on to Prague or Aachen.

I see that Tolosa, Vienne, Camul, and Nuremburg all have forges. Forges have a 66% chance of surviving capture. We might be able to start Ironworks in Ulundi earlier than expected if we can capture a forge or two quickly (but I still suggest building them in Furville and Guimaraes).

A note about how airships work:

Airships have a range of 8. This translates in them being able to move 8 tiles directly North, South, East, or West. They can only move 6 tiles NE, NW, SE, or SW.

You can't run an attack mission on a fogged tile. If you want to attack a tile that is fogged, you have 3 options: 1) move a land/sea unit to defog the tile, 2) run a scout mission on the tile with the airship, or 3) run an attack mission on a tile that is relatively close to the tile you want to defog. Note that running an attack mission on a tile automatically scouts the same tiles that running a scout mission on that tile does. So you want to minimize the number of scout missions you run on an opponent with which you are at war.

Attacking or scouting a particular tile will defog a circle around that tile that includes the 8 tiles N, S, E, and W and the 6 tiles NE, NW, SE, and SW of that tile, except tiles that are blocked by terrain features. Mountains completely block the line of sight of airships, and hills and forests partially block it. For instance, if we used an airship to attack Vienne, we wouldn't be able to see what's behind the mountains to it's west.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Like the scenario.

"Our other stack near Nuremburg can bombard said city (slowly, with a castle and walls there) and lead with a cat and Cuirs when the odds are good." Need to keep an eye on the iron.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"No, it's West Point that requires a 5-promo unit. We could use our next GG to give 20XPs to a single 7XP Cuirassier." Do you have to stop building WP if your 26+ promoted unit (It is 26, not 27, isn't it?) is killed? If so, then it might be better to promote the CR2 cat near Nuremburg that can at least continue to bombard. If we promote that cat to 3CR plus 2 collateral damage promotions, it would be very helpful later against a city like Rome once it's upgraded to a cannon.

We can trade for bananas from Caesar, and we can get some gold from Gandhi for Paper.

Suggest we move our scout this turn to check on Yayoi in case a galley may be ready to head to Ulundi and pillage our clams before the frigate can be built in Canalville.

SCT, why are you making Vienne more of a priority than Durnovaria? If we are hoping for a fast capitulation (and I'm not saying we should be), shouldn't we go after the low hanging fruit first?

Conquest could be faster than Dom'n. Boudica may offer capitulation fairly soon, so we may need to decide soon. Would like to know what kind of, and how many, units Augustus and Pericles have. What about sending our spy to find out?

 

[leif erikson]

I'm beginning to think that Conquest could be faster than Dom'n. Boudica may offer capitulations fairly soon, so we may need to decide soon. Would like to know what kind of, and how many, units Augustus and Pericles have. What about sending our spy to find out?

I agree that it may be faster. I see two problems.
1. We have to get the wonder cities before we can allow Capitulation.

2. We cannot declare war again once they capitulate. If one of them should build a wonder, we can never acquire it. We'll need to be really sure we can beat them to all the wonders!

 

[Cactus Pete]

I agree that Conquest may be faster. I see two problems.
1. We have to get the wonder cities before we can allow Capitulation.

2. We cannot declare war again once they capitulate. If one of them should build a wonder, we can never acquire it. We'll need to be really sure we can beat them to all the wonders!

Thinking Versailles and the Minaret might be problems, but right now only India can build them (and hope it does). Are there any other world wonders early in the tech chain that we haven't built?

BTW, with Military Science our six maces can become powerful CR2,3 grenadiers and would be quite helpful against Caesar's WEs.