SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[Frederiksberg]

Whipping Horseville would put it at 15 pop, and would mean 1 less pop available to be whipped for Wall Street. So it's better to leave it at 16 pop. I have already turned Horseville's cows into a workshop for +2 hammers, and next turn its horses are becomming a workshop for +2 hammers. Those 2 changes alone put us safely in the whipping window whether we're in Free Market or State Property on T213.

Whipping the bank does provide extra hammers because we get hammers without the penalty from whipping wonders. So in one case we whip bank for 1 pop and then Wall Street for 7 pop and in the other case we whip Wall Street for 8 pop. In each case 8 pop is whipped but in the first one we only get wonder penalty for 7 pop (remember that the overflow hammers from the bank are going into Wall Street). Net result is that we get some 20-30 extra hammers I believe. If we are 100% sure that we have enough hammers we can, of course, choose not to do this.

End of the golden age dropped bpt by ~12%. Of course there were 2 new cities out of revolt on that turn.

This is excelent. I suppose this means that we wont have trouble finishing Refrig before T213 (I don't have access to the save).

Capitulation by Augustus could even trigger domination. So we have 3 ways to win.

It's nice to have this backup option if one of our builds should turn out to be mistimed. Do we have any units we can use against Pericles to prepare to force capitulation? In case something is not timed right and we have given back cities to vassals to get below 60% pop we may not have the domination within reach any more.

 

[ShannonCT]

Whipping the bank does provide extra hammers because we get hammers without the penalty from whipping wonders. So in one case we whip bank for 1 pop and then Wall Street for 7 pop and in the other case we whip Wall Street for 8 pop. In each case 8 pop is whipped but in the first one we only get wonder penalty for 7 pop (remember that the overflow hammers from the bank are going into Wall Street). Net result is that we get some 20-30 extra hammers I believe. If we are 100% sure that we have enough hammers we can, of course, choose not to do this.

Bank in Horseville already has 199 hammers invested. I believe the whipping strategy you describe worked in early Vanilla patches but was nerfed in later versions. Whipped hammers overflowing into a wonder should get penalized.

This is excelent. I suppose this means that we wont have trouble finishing Refrig before T213 (I don't have access to the save).

It looks highly likely that we can get Refrig on T212.

It's nice to have this backup option if one of our builds should turn out to be mistimed. Do we have any units we can use against Pericles to prepare to force capitulation? In case something is not timed right and we have given back cities to vassals to get below 60% pop we may not have the domination within reach any more.

We could take the survivors from Knossos and move on to another city. If we don't take diplo victory on T214 for some reason, we can take capitulation from Augustus and move our large armies through his territory to attack Pericles.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Bank in Horseville already has 199 hammers invested. I believe the whipping strategy you describe worked in early Vanilla patches but was nerfed in later versions. Whipped hammers overflowing into a wonder should get penalized.

I know that the overflow bug for whipping with forge was corrected but I'm not sure if overflow hammers have any "memory". It would be quite easy to test - simply whip some build and then see if selecting a wonder compared to selecting a building as next build changes the reported overflow of base hammers.

 

[leif erikson]

I know that the overflow bug for whipping with forge was corrected but I'm not sure if overflow hammers have any "memory". It would be quite easy to test - simply whip some build and then see if selecting a wonder compared to selecting a building as next build changes the reported overflow of base hammers.

I tried this in two of our test game saves and the reported number did not change. The multiplier did change depending upon whether it was a unit or a building as, in one save, the city had Heroic Epic in it. The building or the Wonder had the same overflow numbers and multipliers with both test saves.

Hope this helps...

 

[Frederiksberg]

I tried this in two of our test game saves and the reported number did not change. The multiplier did change depending upon whether it was a unit or a building as, in one save, the city had Heroic Epic in it. The building or the Wonder had the same overflow numbers and multipliers with both test saves.

Hope this helps...

I think it confirms that overflow hammers do not "remember" where they came from i.e. overflow generated as a result of whipping the bank will not be penalized when they are applied to Wall Street. It would also require some very elaborate bookkeeping by the software if it had to remember the origin of all overflow hammers - remember that whipped units can also be queue swapped meaning that the software should in principle be able to remember over the whole game where overflow hammers from queued up items came from.

 

[ShannonCT]

Fred, you're right. Whipped hammers have no memory. So we could get more hammers in Horseville by whipping the Bank this turn. It's not necessary anymore though. Workshops on cows and horses will net us 24 more hammers by T213.

The argument against adopting slavery now and whipping hospitals with no hammers invested is that we'll lose some extra population that could help get Refrig on T212. The argument in favor is that we could get rid of some extra population that we might need to shed anyway to get the diplo victory. The victory screen has us at 62%+ population. I wonder though if this includes half of our vassals' populations, and whether our true population for UN voting purposes is under that. I'm going to be gone all day, but if someone could do a population count by hand, we'll know what our true pop percentage is.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Do we know that half our vassals' populations aren't considered in the UN requirements anyway?

 

[leif erikson]

I'm going to be gone all day, but if someone could do a population count by hand, we'll know what our true pop percentage is.

Here is the count:
Our population = 368, of which 62 is still in resistance.
Our Vassals:
India = 18
Celts = 32
Holy Roman Empire = 26
Portuguese = 3
Total Vassals = 79

Our opponents:
Rome = 128
Greece = 57

Grand Total = 632
Our % is 58.22%
including 0.5 times our Vassals = 64.47%

Also, there are 8 population in Barb cities which we can see and another we cannot see, which is probably 2 also. Counting 10 more pop, with our Vassals yields 63.39%. Not sure how the game counts things but there could be other Barb cities we cannot see? The game says we have 62.62% of world population.

 

[ShannonCT]

Ok, looks like I'll have to do some WB tests tonight to figure out how much population is too much.

If vassal population doesn't add to the 60% limit, shall we vassalize Augustus after capturing Rome and Antium?

 

[leif erikson]

Ok, looks like I'll have to do some WB tests tonight to figure out how much population is too much.

If vassal population doesn't add to the 60% limit, shall we vassalize Augustus after capturing Rome and Antium?

I don't see why not? Cities can't flip while in resistance can they?

If we can do that, it also allows us to send our stacks of troops through Roman land to Pericles' doorstep, in case we need a quick Conquest victory.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Ok, looks like I'll have to do some WB tests tonight to figure out how much population is too much.

If vassal population doesn't add to the 60% limit, shall we vassalize Augustus after capturing Rome and Antium?

What about exceeding the Dom'n limit? We will also add land area when we settle the four islands (along with a bit of population, putting us close to 60%, but thinking whipping will take care of that).

 

[Frederiksberg]

If vassal population doesn't add to the 60% limit, shall we vassalize Augustus after capturing Rome and Antium?

If Augustus becomes our vassal who will then be our opponent in the UN? Pericles or still Augustus? I have never played a diplomacy game with vassals.

EDIT: I guess it doesn't really matter since we only need a few votes from our vassals to get the victory.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Here is the count:
Our population = 368, of which 62 is still in resistance.
Our Vassals:
India = 18
Celts = 32
Holy Roman Empire = 26
Portuguese = 3
Total Vassals = 79

Our opponents:
Rome = 128
Greece = 57

Grand Total = 632
Our % is 58.22%
including 0.5 times our Vassals = 64.47%

Also, there are 8 population in Barb cities which we can see and another we cannot see, which is probably 2 also. Counting 10 more pop, with our Vassals yields 63.39%. Not sure how the game counts things but there could be other Barb cities we cannot see? The game says we have 62.62% of world population.

You can get most of these numbers from the victory screens showing resolutions and (UN) members. Your numbers are almost correct - according to these screens Augustus has a pop of 134 and the total is 638. We need 395 votes to win a diplomatic victory and we have 368 ourselves. Barb cities do not count in the UN voting, but they seem to count in the total world population so our pop percentage is something like (368+79/2)/(638+12)=62,69% assuming a barb population of 12. Judging from the victory screen info and the demographics info we have ~36% of the land and our vassals have ~12% giving a total of 36%+12%/2=42%. Vassalizing Augustus would give us additionally 12%/2 = 6% so we should not exceed the domination threshold of 62% or even come close.

 

[DJMGator13]

Don't forget the few cities we have to found for the Blessed Sea, but that pop will be small.

 

[ShannonCT]

Thanks Leif and Fred for the calculations. I ran some tests and found that the population listed under the domination heading of the victory screen is irrelevant in determing whether diplo victory is possible. Diplo victory is possible as long as we ourselves have less population (votes) than is required to pass diplo victory. And this is easily observed on the Resolutions and Members screens. So on T212, we can give away cities to vassals to get us below the threshold.

Something else interesting is that Pericles's capitulation option is redded out with the message "we are afraid of your enemies". In other words, he wont capitulate because it would mean he'd have to declare on Augustus. On T213, we can accept capitulation from Augustus. (He'll still be our opponent for diplo victory and he'll vote for himself.) I suspect that once Augustus has capitulated, Pericles will want to also. We can accept capitulation, and T214 will give us a conquest and a diplo victory. If we needed to postpone victory for some reason, we could accept capitulation from Pericles at any time.

I'll try to play a few more turns tonight since everything is in order for the next few turns.

 

[leif erikson]

Thanks Leif and Fred for the calculations. I ran some tests and found that the population listed under the domination heading of the victory screen is irrelevant in determing whether diplo victory is possible. Diplo victory is possible as long as we ourselves have less population (votes) than is required to pass diplo victory. And this is easily observed on the Resolutions and Members screens. So on T212, we can give away cities to vassals to get us below the threshold.

Good to know,

Something else interesting is that Pericles's capitulation option is redded out with the message "we are afraid of your enemies". In other words, he wont capitulate because it would mean he'd have to declare on Augustus. On T213, we can accept capitulation from Augustus. (He'll still be our opponent for diplo victory and he'll vote for himself.) I suspect that once Augustus has capitulated, Pericles will want to also. We can accept capitulation, and T214 will give us a conquest and a diplo victory. If we needed to postpone victory for some reason, we could accept capitulation from Pericles at any time.

We may even get Domination too!

Space Ship anyone?

I'll try to play a few more turns tonight since everything is in order for the next few turns.

By all means, continued Good Luck!

 

[ShannonCT]

I played partway through T211. Everything is going according to plan. Antium and Rome were captured without loss. The Great Wall was in Antium. We've cut a large gash through the Roman empire, and now it's Augustus who is too afraid to capitulate. Pericles is ready instead.

Refrig is due in 1 turn with no problem. We can switch to FM next turn to found the three corps.

The free Prophet from Blessed Seas was born in X-ville and has been chained to Hun. Shrine will be built next turn.

All wonders are on schedule for whipping on T213.

Have a look at the save. I think I'm ready to put this baby to bed tomorrow morning.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Excellent news!

No harm in heading for conquest also I guess.

Good luck with the remaining turns

 

[leif erikson]

Had a look at the save. As I have never founded a Corporation before, I am curious why, in X-ville, the icon for Sid's Sushi is blacked out when I call up the Great Merchant there? We have both Corporation and Medicine and X-ville has fish and clams in its city radius,

I went to the Civlopedia and read this:
Founding a Corporation
There are a number of requirements that must be fulfilled before a player can found a Corporation. First, they must have researched Corporations Technology, in addition to another more specific technology required by each Corporation. This second technology varies by Corporation. Once players have researched the proper techs, they must then move a Great Person into a city that has one or more of the resources required by the Corporation they wish to create. By expending the proper type of Great Person, they may found the Corporate Headquarters in their city."

 

[Cactus Pete]

Never formed a corporation either (experience limited to sole proprietorships) and also have no clue. Otherwise, looks like SCT is bringing us home in great shape.