SGOTM 09 - Gypsy Kings

[adrianj]

In the interests of keeping the pace I made a few executive decisions.

1) After I finished Joao we still had lots of War Weariness. I didn't understand why, and realised we were still at war with Wang Kon. I made peace with him (!) and the war weariness went away. It was getting quite significant, up to 7 in Athens even with Mt Rushmore!
Repercussion: We can't attack Wang Kon for another 8 turns from now... I apologise if this is going to cause a major problem.

2) We popped a GG. I thought about settling it in Corinth, but that would give new units 9/10 XP = not quite enough for 3 promos. So I settled him in Athens for the extra +3 raw .

3) HC came to me IBT asking to be our vassal. I rejected him because I really think the whole team should have input into that. The offer is still available for us to take now.

Other stuff:

* The Barb spices city has 16+ longbows fortified in it!!! (screenshot) I have a couple of paratroopers sitting next to it, and another ready to paradrop. The 3 have 2 promos each left, so I guess they could kill 3 units per turn consistently for about 3 turns and hopefully have March promo after that and can continue. Otherwise they'll need reinforcements.

* Both Shaka and Stalin are pleased with us, but both have -1 for border tension. I haven't managed to airlift any more units to Argos yet...

* The engineer will produce 536 to 3 Gorges. Total production for this turn in Borsippa is just under 400. Total required is 1172. So we should have it in 2 turns.

* I think we should take HC as our vassal. Then we can demand resources from him (Spices) and we'll also get extra happiness for influencing other civs. The cost is -ve mods with Stalin and Shaka, but a paratrooper or two in Argos should at least keep them at bay there. HC is 3 turns away from Rifling - so he probably isn't a wise choice to attack now anyway.

* Worker actions have been a bit haphazard, there are so many of them!! Generally I've been building workshops over the top of Hamlet, leaving villages, and lumbermills over the top of forest preesrves in some cases. If I've see a mine or lumbermill, I've built a railroad on it. In our more established cities up north I've mostly just been putting railroads down, a few pre chops (ready for SS parts) and converting some unecessary forest preserves into lumbermills. Eg, Athens doesn't desperately need the forest preesrve happiness, but it could use the health - so both those preserves could become lumbermills.

* Future war with Wang Kon (min 8 turns away)... I think this would be a bad idea. We gain little, and it will bring back the war weariness, which for some reason I don't understand was quite substantial.

* Tech path from here (with current research):
Rocketry (2) -> Radio (2) -> Satellites (3) -> Composities (3) -> Computers (3) -> Fibre Optics (3) -> Fusion (4) -> Genetics (3) -> Ecology (2).
Total of 25 turns assuming the loss of golden age for half the time is offset by possible bulbs for Computers/Fibre Optics and more cities finishing their builds and producing wealth/research.

 

[adrianj]

Updated GPP Spreadsheet attached.

A few things of note, assuming we'll be at the end of the tech tree in about 25 turns:
* I'm assuming Athens maintains having 9 scientists assigned for a total raw GPP of 33.

* Sparta can switch back down to 6 engineers + 1 preist.

* The extra GM produced in Dur K doesn't arrive until after we've reached the end of the tree. I propose running scientists there instead since they'll get more %bonus for their than merchants will for their .

* The free GE we get from Fusion doesn't have a lot to do... The bulb option available at that point will be Robotics, which we don't need. Rush some random wonder, or settle in the city that will produce the final SS part?

* A similar story for the extra GS produced in Athens. Bulb option at that point would be Laser, which we don't need. Settle in the city that will produce the final SS part?

* Since we won't be doing any bulbing, we don't need Printing Press from HC.

* Basically, once we start GA5 we have no more need for GPP. Therefore we also have no more need for Pacifism. Perhaps a switch to Paganism, which has a low cost and still allows us to keep our State Religion = +2 from temples still and happiness from Confu. Academies?

EDit:Clearly I've forgotten to attach the spreadsheet... I don't have it on this computer - I'll upload it tomorrow.

 

[Ronnie1]

Well Done Adrian!!! Good calls on the executive decisions IMO!!!

The Roster Order is....

Conquistador63 - waiting
Memphus - on deck
adrianj - just played
bcool - UP NOW
Ronnie1 - in the hole
keek - waiting
Jon - waiting
da_Vinci - waiting

 

[bcool]

got it, I'll post a ppp in about 12 hours

 

[Conquistador 63]

Good job, Adrian!

A few comments:

1) After I finished Joao we still had lots of War Weariness. I didn't understand why, and realised we were still at war with Wang Kon. I made peace with him (!) and the war weariness went away.

No problem with your decision, but that I doubt we had WW with Korea, since we never had any combat with them. WW to a given AI can be checked mousing over its name in the scoreboard in the lower right screen, and it is different from zero even if at peace, if we had a war with that AI in the past (but now it shows no WW with WK). I also think the WW (from Portugal) would go away the turn after we finished him, not in the same turn.

I think we should take HC as our vassal. Then we can demand resources from him (Spices) and we'll also get extra happiness for influencing other civs. The cost is -ve mods with Stalin and Shaka, but a paratrooper or two in Argos should at least keep them at bay there. HC is 3 turns away from Rifling - so he probably isn't a wise choice to attack now anyway

Not saying we shouldn't accept him as a vassal, but if we do, bear in mind we'll suffer from higher maintenance expenses from his cities (and maybe more civic upkeep as well? Not really sure). Interesting to notice we currently have no emancipation

* Future war with Wang Kon (min 8 turns away)... I think this would be a bad idea. We gain little, and it will bring back the war weariness, which for some reason I don't understand was quite substantial.

See above. Anyway, I tend to agree, but if we did enter a war at this point maybe we'd benefit more from pillaging improvements (especially towns/villages etc) than actually capturing cities.

* Tech path from here (with current research):
Rocketry (2) -> Radio (2) -> Satellites (3) -> Composities (3) -> Computers (3) -> Fibre Optics (3) -> Fusion (4) -> Genetics (3) -> Ecology (2).
Total of 25 turns assuming the loss of golden age for half the time is offset by possible bulbs for Computers/Fibre Optics and more cities finishing their builds and producing wealth/research.

We also need Fission (pre-req for Fusion). And now is the right time to consider the different alternatives, we can gain or lose several turns depending on our path. I posted a suggestion sometime ago:

2)Rocketry
3)Radio (prereq for Satellites)
4)Fission (prereq for Fusion)
5)Computers (prereq for Fiber Optics)
6)Fibre Optics: SS Cockpit
7)Fusion (GE): SS Engine
8)Genetics: SS stasis chamber
9)Satellites: SS Docking bay
10)Composites: SS Casings
11)Ecology: SS life support

This one gets GE from Fusion earlier and a headstart on the big parts, Engine and Stasis Chamber. We also need to discuss at some point how many of the optional parts we'll build.

 

[bcool]

Great Turn aj!

Proposed Pre-Play-Plan for next 10 turns

Diplomatically
Vassal HC
-get spices in trade (or demand it if no trade option available)
-trade for printing press if possible from him (check to see if WTYAGTA goes away)
-have him switch to caste system if possible (sometimes an option for vassals)
----if it is possible, then switch espionage to shaka/stalin split

edit: I can't find out how much our maintenance costs go up from taking a vassal! Does anyone know how maintenance is affected beyond it goes up? Answered in my next post

-trade for silk
-trade for gold from stalin, shaka, hc
----cancel resource gifts coal to HC, sheep to Shaka if we need them to get gold in trade

-trade techs for petty cash. We can safely give HC any tech I think. I won't give riflery to shaka and stalin. I won't give shaka/stalin constitution

Civic changes
probably none during my turn set. Although a switch to Free Religion during GA5 might be in order. You still get the hammer bonus under free religion from AP (I'm almost positive edit: Tested it you do get the hammer bonus for AP religious buildings under free religion). And we won't need the happiness from the academies at that point (I think)

Military
-WK war planned (war weariness with WK is not a problem, and I think HC is better as a vassal)
4 galleons, 1 frigate built pacific ocean coast (get paratroopers up there in 6-7 turns for a 12 paratrooper assault on WK, going for quick vassalization.


-Garrison Argos with 2 paratroopers
-take out barbarian city in south africa (without excessive force)
-edit: cancelled for more paratrooper fun slowly take out atlantis (for gold if nothing else) and our paratroopers will be bored
-garrison any empty cities

Tech
if great engineer from fusion won't be needed then I propose
Genetics --> for health bonus Rocketry, Radio, fission, Satellites, Computers, Fiber Optics, Fusion, Composites, Ecology

Engines take the longest to build so I think we need to get Fusion before Composites

Great People
will take a look at aj's spreadsheet and follow his lead

Builds
Athens -wealth/research run scientist
Sparta -airport then wealth/research
Corinth -lab (spaceship bonus mostly) grocer? Airship/Cannon for gold? Will double checks numbers on this
Fursland – add coal plant wealth/research
Thebes – grocer? see tech path, wealth/research
Clamstown – wealth/research NOT Calmstown
Borsippa – 3G Dam, ind park, confu academy, Apollo program
Dur-K bank, factory (for space ship bonus if we chop all 12 forests), lab
Babylon – aqueduct (will allow 1 more growth)? see tech path
Sippar – harbor, lab, wealth/research
Nippur -uni, harbor, observatory wealth/research
Akkad -harbor, add observatory, courthouse wealth/research
Opis -temple, lighthouse, observatory, courthouse, wealth/research
Mari -wealth/research
Borganza – Temple, Factory, Uni, Harbor, Globe, Observatory, Lab,
Sagres -Univ, wealth/research
Faro -Factory, wealth/research
Brago -Factory, lighthouse, wealth/research
Argoes -Univ, Harbor, wealth/research
Evora – Factory
Lagos – factory
Oporto – factory
Leiria -univ, factory
Lisbon, Factory, aqueduct?, library?, univ?
Guimaraes -forge?, factory?, library?, univ?
Santarem ?
Cambra ?

 

[bcool]

Vassal decision

Okay so I found a test game save where mansa wanted to become my vassal. I looked at maintenance costs before and after. In the test game I was in state property.

The maintenance cost for number of cities went up. The civic maintenance did NOT. Inflation rate didn't go up, the inflation cost did because the total maintenance went up.

In our game we already are at the maximum cost for number of cities!
Conclusion:
Taking HC as a vassal will NOT increase our maintenance costs!

 

[Ronnie1]

This one gets GE from Fusion earlier and a headstart on the big parts, Engine and Stasis Chamber. We also need to discuss at some point how many of the optional parts we'll build.

I think we build ALL the parts. It would totally suck to have an "accident".

 

[adrianj]

I agree with Ron - we build all the parts. We rarely go into combat at 80% odds, why open up the possibility of wasting our entire game on anything less than 100%? With a large empire like we have and so many high production cities all producing SS parts in parallel, I don't see how we could save much time from launching earlier anyway.

Bcool - since we're getting to the end of the game, I want to point out - it is Clamstown! Named after the seafood delicacy just off its coast. Not Calmstown. (Glad I got that off my chest )
An airport in Sparta? If we were putting airports anywhere, wouldn't it make more sense in coastal cities that can benefit from harbours/custom house? But I guess those cities are busy building other important stuff.

When you checked your save game with the Mali vassal - did you notice an increase in your trade income? I'm not 100% sure on this, but normally you only get 1 trade route with each AI city, eg we have 1 route to Cuzco from Athens. If HC is our vassal, can we then get multiple trade routes to Cuzco, just like we have multiple routes to our own city Fursland?

I think Genetics is actually a very good choice for our next tech for the +3 health.

I haven't got the GPP spreadsheet on this computer, but it's pretty straightforward from here:
* Athens must produce a GS next - so assign up to 9 scientists there, more if possible by starving but not losing population. (Genetics will help with this). More scientists = higher % likelihood of GS.
* Dur K will produce a merchant next, and an artist after that at 99% odds, assuming you remember to change it to artists the turn of the GM.
* Sparta can run 6 engineers + 2 Priests (it is doing so now). You could keep that up for a while and then bring it down as you see fit. Just make sure that it produces something the turn before Dur K produces the artist - to be on the safe side. EDIT: If we launch GA5 after we have the free GE from Fusion, then we don't need this from Sparta. Switch it back to maximum wealth.
* Some/most of this probably applies to a subsequent turnset...

To produce the maximum overflow gold in Corinth, build Explorers. They are the cheapest, and still get +100% military unit bonus.

I'm not sure about an Industrial Park in Borsippa. Will it have it for long enough for the free engineer to justify the hammers? That and assigning more engineer specialists (which we have plenty of room for in Forge+Factory anyway) are the only uses I can think of for this building. I'll try some numbers...
1 free engineer = 2 raw = 2*310% = 6.2 + 3 raw :beakers: = 12.2 total combined = return after 134/12.2 = 11 turns.
BUT the +3 unhealth could have potentially been 1 engineer assigned the normal way...

A confu temple in Braganza and Opis will then allow a Confu Academy in Borsippa = a much better option for +2 raw . In fact, why not build the temple in Braganza before Globe? (No other cities have confu that don't already have a temple - we have exactly 12 cities with confu.)

 

[bcool]

Bcool - since we're getting to the end of the game, I want to point out - it is Clamstown! Named after the seafood delicacy just off its coast. Not Calmstown. (Glad I got that off my chest )

haha my bad, apparently I am consistent with my mistakes

An airport in Sparta? If we were putting airports anywhere, wouldn't it make more sense in coastal cities that can benefit from harbours/custom house? But I guess those cities are busy building other important stuff.

I was just looking at the numbers, sparta is getting +4 trade routes so an airport pays off within 20 turns if you consider the science mulitpliers. Its close though, so no need to do this.

When you checked your save game with the Mali vassal - did you notice an increase in your trade income? I'm not 100% sure on this, but normally you only get 1 trade route with each AI city, eg we have 1 route to Cuzco from Athens. If HC is our vassal, can we then get multiple trade routes to Cuzco, just like we have multiple routes to our own city Fursland?

We did get a slight increase in trade income in my test game, so I assume we would in our real game too.

To produce the maximum overflow gold in Corinth, build Explorers. They are the cheapest, and still get +100% military unit bonus.

ok explorers, who will then be dismissed.

I'm not sure about an Industrial Park in Borsippa. Will it have it for long enough for the free engineer to justify the hammers? That and assigning more engineer specialists (which we have plenty of room for in Forge+Factory anyway) are the only uses I can think of for this building. I'll try some numbers...
1 free engineer = 2 raw = 2*310% = 6.2 + 3 raw :beakers: = 12.2 total combined = return after 134/12.2 = 11 turns.
BUT the +3 unhealth could have potentially been 1 engineer assigned the normal way...

If we do genetics first in the tech path the 3 unhealth won't hurt us until we grow in a few turns. I think we are building a grocer in Borsippa anyways, so we have a bit of healthiness to spare even if it grows. edit: I got this wrong, we already have a grocer in borsippa which will add one more health with spices.

A confu temple in Braganza and Opis will then allow a Confu Academy in Borsippa = a much better option for +2 raw . In fact, why not build the temple in Braganza before Globe? (No other cities have confu that don't already have a temple - we have exactly 12 cities with confu.)

This is a good idea too, I think this makes senses too! (although Borsippa might be working on the apollo program by this time).

 

[adrianj]

Extra: and a courthouse in Akkad? Save 50% of 6 = 3. After inflation (~50%) = 4.5 . Those 80 will take 18 turns to pay off. Surely an airport or customhouse in this coastal city will give a better return? I assume that when you build something like a harbour, trade routes are reallocated to where they give the best return? Ie, Sparta's 4 trade routes will be reallocated to Akkad.
An airport adds an extra 4 at least. That's 6 with the buildings in Akkad. So get a return after 167/6 = 28 turns. Ok that's crap!
Assuming Akkad will run 4 scientists - an Observatory here will add 13.5 . At a cost of 100 that's a return after only 8 turns. Even after the Golden Age ends it's still a better return than a courthouse.

I could go on... and since it is my Saturday morning, and my wife is out at the moment, I will

Anywhere that produces more than 27 raw will make a return on the Observatory in under 15 turns. This is true for both Sippar and Akkad, even after GAge ends. I'd build it before the Harbour even.

Braganza has a long list of things to build, all of which will give a return quite quickly. I'm sure you won't forget the University. Since the is reasonably under control for the next 3 or 4 turns (extra happy from Spices, Silk, vassal) you might be able to get away with building the temple + factory before Globe. It'll probably halve the time to build Globe.

 

[Conquistador 63]

I'm fine with both vassaling HC and teching Genetics first if unhealtiness is an issue. But I notice there isn't a consensus after rocketry/radio, so that should be sorted out if next turnset will go beyond it.

About space parts, engines (1-2) and thrusters (1-5) affect the speed of the ship, while casings (1-5) affect the chance of success of it reaching its destination. As we have a huge production base I believe we'll be able to afford build all parts but in a normal speed game, launching with 2 engines instead of 1 yields to a reduction of 2 turns in voyage time and sometimes you won't be able to build a 2nd engine in less than 2 turns, so...

Also, when trading resources with a vassal, if you select one to offer that the vassal don't already have and ask "what would you give us for it" they will offer all of their spare resources for it, even ones we already have - that can help us to sell those to someone else.

 

[adrianj]

Oh, and a coal plant in Fursland - it won't get the free Power from 3 Gorges. Should have done this a while ago come to think of it.

 

[bcool]

observatory added to akkad's build list, sippar already has an observatory

new build order for braganza temple, factory, uni, harbor, observatory, globe theater (unless we need the theater earlier) check

 

[adrianj]

observatory added to akkad's build list, sippar already has an observatory

Ah, so it does. May I suggest Opis and Nippur then? Opis definitely, since it will likely assign 2 scientists as well with the extra food from the lighthouse.

 

[adrianj]

Another very small thing: Leiria isn't building a granary since it's already working all its land tiles. But I've set the nearby workers to build windmills. My thinking was that the +2 food from the two windmills could be an extra scientist. This is probably a mistake since it will take so long to grow the extra population to assign that scientist. Those forested hills would be better off with lumbermills/rails on them I think.

The galley parked NE of Clamstown is there since I realised there is a gap in our defences where a barb galley could land troops on the tundra tile behind it. A better solution would be another Frigate build in Clamstown. It would also be possible (pretty low odds) for a barb galley to kill one of the triremes and then land units by Clamstown.

I guess far and away the best solution is a couple of galleon builds in Clamstown and to capture the city with paratroopers, as you've suggested If you go this route, perhaps a trireme could fall back to defend the clams, and let the barbs land their maces by Clamstown. Would be much easier to deplete their numbers that way. Meanwhile, the frigate is bombarding away the defences, and the other trireme keeps up the blockade.

I wonder if the city will still yield lots of cash even though it is back to size 1...

 

[adrianj]

Tech order and SS Parts (required ):
1) Genetics
2) Rocketry: Apollo (1072), Stasis Chamber (804), Thrusters (804 x 5)
3) Radio
4) Fission
5) Computers
6) Fibre Optics: Cockpit (670)
7) Fusion: Engines (1072 x 2)
8) Satellites: Docking Bay (1340)
9) Composites: Casings (804 x 5)
10) Ecology: Life Support (670)

I like this order. One of the cheapest things is last, which can be completely chopped in Dur K which doesn't require a golden age. (forest = 20 raw = 20*2.6 = 52 after modifiers. Chop 12 of them for 624, and then add 2 or 3 from outside the city's BFC + normal production from the city = > 670.

We have 5 cities not including Borsippa that could have at least 70 raw during a golden age: Thebes, Corinth, Sparta, Babylon and Braganza. With a good overflow from the previous build (eg, Explorer) they could produce the 5 casings in 5 turns - just enough time to research ecology and chop out Life Support in Dur K.

That frees up Borsippa to build Docking Bay which it can do in about 5 turns, having just completed the Cockpit+explorer.

Thebes and Corinth at a stretch could manage 80 raw . With a bit of overflow from the previous build (eg, an explorer) they could have the Engines built in 5 turns, more than enough time for them to move on to Casings 2 techs later.

Summary: turns to launch:
13: Learn Fibre Optics. Borsippa builds Cockpit.
12:
11: Corinth + Thebes build explorer for overflow.
10: Learn Fusion. Corinth + Thebes begin Engines.
9: Begin Golden Age. Borsippa completes Cockpit. Build Wealth.
8: Borsippa builds explorer.
7: Learn Satellites. Borsippa builds Docking Bay.
6:
5: Corinth + Thebes complete Engines. Build explorers in Corinth, Thebes, Sparta, Babylon, Braganza.
4: Learn Composities. Begin Casings in Corinth, Thebes, Sparta, Babylon, Braganza.
3:
2: Borsippa completes Docking Bay.
1: Learn Ecology. Chop Life Support in Dur K. End golden age.
0: Life Support + Casings Complete. LAUNCH!


Ahhh the weekend

Edit: You know what... the golden age in that scenario is triggered AFTER we learn Fusion. Therefore we don't need the extra GE from Sparta... so after Sparta produces its next GE we could switch it back to working best tiles for maximum wealth.
Edit2: No... actually we can switch Sparta to max wealth right now! Convert a few farms back to workshops even.

 

[bcool]

Okay,
I adjusted the builds as aj's further research indicated was best, and the changes are editted into ppp.
Tech plan is genetics, rocketry, radio, check with group

Great people
I suggest running 3 priests, 4 scientist, 1 (free engineer) in sparta as insurance for GA5. If Athens doesn't pop great scientist we are in some trouble. The priest or the scientist from Sparta would cover us.

If I get a chance I'll prechop some of the forests around Dur-K

Military Plan Change!
War with Wang Kon (going for quick vassalization!) Hit Wang Kon Pyongyang with amphibious assault, then Seoul for quick vassalization. those paratroopers have nothing better to do. Gold from conquest and increased trade routes will at least pay for military supply costs and galleon builds.



I'll play tomorrow morning about 10 hours from now.

 

[adrianj]

I'm thinking... since we don't need to wait on Sparta to produce the extra GE, we don't actually need Pacifism after the end of this GA. I'm having issues with getting my laptop on the network so can't get the spreadsheet off it right now, but I think it works out.
A switch to Free Religion might work out?
Or don't attempt it because of the risk of Athens producing an Artist?

 

[bcool]

I think the advantage of free religion is actually quite small. It is 10% of the raw commerce of our cities. And I think it delays GA5 significantly (I think you forgot that after 20 great people the next ones come at prior-great-person-theshold +200.)

Edit: Ok it looks like it might still work with free religion. However, without sparta as a backup we are taking a ~10% risk that we won't have a GA5.

Edit#2: What is the advantage of free religion. Our base research is about 1000. That means free religion will give us about 100 extra research a turn. Plus some diplomatic bonuses which I don't think will help us significantly, but correct me if I'm wrong.

It will cost us about 31 extra civic upkeep and save us about 17 gold from no longer paying for military unit upkeep. With inflation this means it costs us about 20 gold more per turn.

Ok so free religion over the next 18 turns will net us 1440 research.
~90% of the time it will cost us about about a 3 turn delay in our GA5
~8% of the time it will cost us about a 8 turn delay in our GA5
~2% of the time it will prevent the GA5 from happening
It will cost us 1 (or maybe 2) great people who won't have much to do. The late great scientist might be able to get us 100-200 research. The late late great merchant would get us ~2000 gold, but most likely would come after our research is done.

Do we want to discuss milking for score, just in case we tie the game? The last few great people could be used to start corporations if we switched civics after launching and might grow us some population?