SGOTM 10 - Team Liz

[Andronicus]

Fifty cavs is scarcely weak.... Hopefully there's the odd musket too.

Only one planned to take at this stage to south (plus a settler). If we use this as diversion, then we would need quite a stack for an attack from our NW.

 

[Andronicus]

Finished turns - save download and turn log coming
I played to 430AD as I feel this is a time for the team to make some important decisions and I think I've had the save long enough now.

Current situation
Magnetism is in
Our navy
We have 13 galleons ready to transport our invading force, 5 caravels - 3 exploring (primarily to look for 1 tile islands, but also doing some scouting).
We have 6 cities building MoWs, approx 1 per turn - 1st in 3 turns (edit - agree with Abegweit's assessment below we dont need a lot)
Our army
Still no MGL
58 cav (3 elite), 5 horse (4 elites)
We now rank average compared to barb nation (edit - I interpret this to mean we should be able to run over Barb Nation with superior human tactics)

Diplomacy
At peace with Bill, Gil and Thea - awaiting end of MA to get Thea and Gil's techs then wipe out their last cities (both 1CC). Havnt touched Bill.

Science
Maintained 4 turn research whilst financing all bar 1 horsemen upgrades. Now doing banking in 4 at 10% science thanks to our science farms (could do it in 5 for extra 90gpt if 0% science). Team needs to decide whether cont on to steam - 4 turns for each of banking and ToG and cross fingers that one of the scientific AI gets steam and can give it to us (hint - pay for it with cash as we get the cash back immediately when we destroy them). If we stop science we get 90gpt extra for 0% science and 224gpt (and rising) extra turning our scientists into taxmen. The science (tax) farms do require quite a bit of work to maximise the benefit. As rule of thumb try not to use any 2 or less fpt tiles. I was frequently cycling through growth then starvation getting an extra scientist durung starvation phase. Try to grow back quickly after building settlers and workers - the settlers are really boosting our economy and if we go rails we will need a lot of extra workers very soon ( hopefully in 8 turns).

Fighting Dr Evil.
I am coming round to a southern invasion, although I have yet to see an ideal landing spot.
Once we get into full on war we will eventually get hit with WW. By this time we should be well out of our GA and have enough cavs over there that the outcome is a formality. My concern with a landing soon near his core is it risks WW hitting too soon. I'm sure we can handle low levels of WW in republic, but it will cost us some gpt for upgrades. Once we have stopped science we can afford more lux spending instead if needed.

Cav / horse builds
It is quite fiddly and important to keep a routine of correct order. Pike on salt pillages at end of turn so horse builds are not changed to cav by computer. In IBT cav build cities (only our 20+spt cities should build cavs) build cav and pike is automatically selected. At beginning of next turn 3 workers on salt reconnect, then can do upgrades and switch pike builds to cavs. Note MoWs also req salt so they must also be switched. How many MoWs do we need?

Note both Thea and Gil have a boat out - Thea's on west of continent, Gil's on east. I dont think Gil has settler on board but Thea might - we need to be able to kill off these boats after getting their free tech if a settler is on board.

edit
The Save
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm10/Team_Liz_SG010_AD0430_01.SAV

 

[Abegweit]

Looks good Nice turns.

I think we should be on the move now. The olives look like a good landing spot. No roads is a good thing. Build a town. Rush a barracks. And wait for the onslaught.

As for continued research, I'm for it... and for building up a cash reserve. We will probably need about 3000g + MT (cost: 1728) to buy Steam (cost: 3600). The precise date that we get to the IA is not very important.

Oh BTW, the barbs are in Republic and ahead of us in culture. Do not build any towns on one-tile islands.

A question here: does anyone know if Gyathaar could have rigged things to allow the barbs access to berserks? He hasn't screwed with marines; they still come with AW.

As for MoWs, we don't need many so long as the AI doesn't have astronomy. Maybe two or three. Perhaps our coastal cities should switch to cavs?

Edit: I don't think the Dromon has a settler on it. I first spotted that at the beginning of my turns north-west of Bristol. To prevent settler nonsense, gift them Theology. Gives them something useful to do with their cities The barbs know the tech anyway.

 

[Andronicus]

Turn log

1) 340AD
Caravel on west coast spies a 1 tile island -> to get a slave there ASAP and then look for more
MM a bit - about 3 hours worth
With plan to cont science, I put all 10spt and 16 spt towns on cavs, leaving only 15spt towns still building horses. Aim to get all horses upgraded ASAP
All planned cavs are collosseums as prebuild

IT
Military Tradition -> Physics
Caravels built in Nott and Oxford
Settlers in Neu York and New Hastings
Dover duct -> caravel

2) 350AD
Switch collosseums to cavs
Taxmen to scientists and can do physics in 4 @ 40%, making 290gpt (73 scientists)
Volcano SE of Gloucester is smoking -> move workers to safety
upgrade 7 horse -> cavs

IT
Cavs in London, Hastings, Coventry
Horse in York
Settler in Berwick
Trebizond riots after resistance ends -> hire another scientist
Barbs are building Sistine (good - thats 600 shields less of units)
Volcano erupts cutting off Smyrna (good move shifting Smyna as its former site was blotted out)

3) 360AD
upgrade 4 horse
barb galley plays chasey with caravel in south
prepare cavs to attack Sumeria

IT
Cavelry in Cuzco, Warwick
Caravel in Nott, L'pool, Cambridge, Bristol
Worker in New London
Settler in New York
Sumerians building Sistine

4) 370AD
Settle New Cambridge
dow Sumeria
@ Lagash
7 cavs defeat 4 pikes, 1MDI, 2LB without loss (2 promos), but still LB remains (7-0) - have to wait another turn
@ Umma
3 cavs d 3 pikes and capture (10-0)
@ Sumer
cav loses to pike and I decide to wait for more reinforcements (10-1)
cavs kill stray sword (guarding iron) and LB (12-1)
upgrade 4 more horse
can reduce science to 30, increasing gpt to 351
Caesarea unhappy - has Sumerian citizen still -> hires specialist

IT
No counter attack - I expected a few knights
cavs in London, Canterbury, Norwich
horse in York
settler in Palanque
New L'pool harbour -> caravel
Dutch building Sistine ( I check Dutch and they dont know education, so it appears neither does Dr Evil meaning quite a while till pirate ships )

5) 380AD
@ Lagash
lose cav to knight, 2 cavs d MDI and LB (14-2) - 1 elite victory -> capture Hanging Gardens - get 3 slaves
@ Sumer
lose a cav, then retreat 2 before next 4 cavs d 3 pikes and LB (18-3) -> capture - get 3 slaves
Pillage Sumeria's remaining iron ( should have done this first turn of war)
Settle New Gloucester and New Manchester
drop slave on 1 tile island
upgrade 5 horse - 27 remain
Only city really preventing decreasing lux to 10% is London - it is switched to market and hires a specialist for the 3 turns it takes to build. Get an extra 85gpt by decreasing lux - thats at least 1 cav upgrade per turn so loss of 1.5 cavs built by London during that time well worth it. Minor MM req scientist -> clown in Leeds remove coastal tiles in Oxford and L'pool -> scientists (gives net increase in beakers and these cities have excess food)
-> physics in 1 @ 20% science and making 539gpt

IT
cavs d knight and LB on defence (20-3)- 2nd elite victory
caravel d regular barb galley (21-3)
Physics -> Magnetism
cavs in Hastings, Coventry, Brighton, Gloucester
Caravel in Nott, Dover
Settler in New Hastings
Richmond court -> duct
Umma riots - whats going on - it has 2 happy and 2 unhappy

6) 390AD
upgrade 7 horsemen
Settle New Bristol
Barb Nation galleys chase us in north (we have 2 exploring caravels there)
Our troops stop to heal

IBT
4th caravel arriving off Dr Evil's shore is redlined but survives -> return home to heal (22-3)
LB retreats cav
Cav in Cuzco, Machu Picchu
Horse in York
Caravel in Exeter

7) 400AD
WW hits?? - must have been triggered by attack on cav in IT
-> lux back to 20%
upgrade 5 horse
@ Erech
first cav retreats, next 2 d pikes (24-3) - 3rd elite victory -> capture
@ Ur
cavs retreat, lose, retreat, lose (my luck with rng has run out), before 2 cavs d pikes, next retreats, final 2 d pikes and 2 redlined pikes remain - wait next turn (28-5)
@ Agade
lose 3 cavs, d pike and LB (30-8) abandon attempt
Mopping up ecav d LB (31-8) 4th e victory
Settle New Leister

IT
cav d LB (32-8)
London market -> cav
Sumer & Erech riots as resistance ends -> starve down with specialists
Isin rax -> horse
cav in Warwick
Settlers in Newcastle, Nicaea (hurried to be our settler to go to other continent), Bonampak
Worker in Yaxchilan
Reading court -> rax
Caravel in Cambridge
Leister duct -> horse

8) 410AD
@ Ur
lose 1 cav, d EW and pike (34-9) - 5th e victory - capture - 4 slaves
@ Agade
lose and retreat cavs before d EW and 2 pikes (36-10)
Settle New Carlisle

IBT
southern caravel flawlessly d Barb N galley (37-10)
LB retreats cav
Horse in York
Cavs in Hastings, Canterbury, Coventry, Leeds
Settler rushed in Umma
Workers in Cambridge and New Warwick
New Dover rax -> horse

9) 420AD
4/5cav d 2/4LB (38-10) 6th e victory
@ Bad-tibira
lose 1 cav, d 2 pike (40-11) 7th e victory -> capture
Settle New Ipswich & New Portsmouth
upgrade 6 horses - 7 left, 4 of which are elites
MM for Mag in 1 @ 10% + 508gpt
Peace with Sumeria for 32g + 9gpt -> lux to 10% and making 608gpt

IT
Magnetism -> Banking - GLH obsolete
cavs in Cuzco, Nott, Norwich
Horse in Machu Picchu, Leicester
Settler in Sumer (rushed), Manchester
Worker in Portsmouth
Caesarea rax -> horse
L'pool musket -> MoW
Leeds riots (missed it when I dropped lux to 10% - scroll ahead but dont find any others )

10) 430AD
Switch naval builds to MoWs once salt reconnected - they are awkward shield number - 65, best spt are 33, 22, 17, 13 or 11. Some re-jigging required as part way through builds aligned to caravels, will need readjusting after 1st bild completes to optimise
Settle New Berwick and New Bath

Notes
Need to rush settlers in larger Sumerian towns once resistance suppressed.
Bad-tibira has approx 5% flip risk, may wish to consider removing forces
We have 1 vet horse requiring upgrade but insuff money - in Machu Picchu
Canterbury grows next turn, but has 2 tiles it could user so I suggest adding 1 of the workers currently in the city (other on way to mine 1 more tile of York's - its currently wasting food)
Oxford appears to be 1 shield short on market build - the mine completes on IT and the next shield is not corrupt so should build OK.

 

[Andronicus]

I think we should be on the move now. The olives look like a good landing spot. No roads is a good thing. Build a town. Rush a barracks. And wait for the onslaught.

Another option is land on hill beside Chanca 2 and raze the town building our own on the hill

A question here: does anyone know if Gyathaar could have rigged things to allow the barbs access to berserks? He hasn't screwed with marines; they still come with AW.

I think this would be most unlikely

As for MoWs, we don't need many so long as the AI doesn't have astronomy. Maybe two or three. Perhaps our coastal cities should switch to cavs?

I like the idea of concentrating our forces on cavs - suggest Oxford and Cambridge building rax -> horses, other coastal towns currently building naval units have less than 10 spt so not worth switching to mil as req building rax first (and will have even less production after GA)
edit - Nott should also go to cavs
Also
I think Canterbury can be 3 turn cav if it is grown to use the 2 irr desert tiles as I described earlier and it steals the hill off York instead of a plain. York can get back to 15spt by working the plains Canterbury gives it plus taking one from the city to its north which has some to spare

 

[Abegweit]

The Chanca spot isn't bad either. I assume you mean the southern hill (for those at work, this is also in the pic I posted).

Some considerations:

It's a bit closer to our core, making reinforcements easier. This is probably irrelevant because we have so many galleons that ship-chaining to a more southerly location would work fine.

It's on a hill, which makes it more defensible. In practice, this is less important than it appears. Our cavs will be our defenders. The only thing the Barbs have which can touch the city once it is up is knights. They probably don't have many and, in any case, the AI doesn't use them properly.

It's closer to the barb core and has roads leading to it. This is both a plus and a minus. We will get hit the second we land and we will be hit harder. OTOH, we have less distance to get to the core and would probably conquer faster once the initial onslaught is over.

The olives is outside his territory (= no WW from the landing). We can land everything we have without worrying about this consideration. Because of the lack of roads, I doubt we'll get even a single hit.

All in all, I still prefer the olives. I am against anything further south. Too far away from the action.

Edit: Another point against the Chanca spot is the fact that there will be a hill next to the town no matter which one we choose. This will make it harder for our cavs to kill the incoming hordes. The AI does know how to use terrain to its advantage.

I find this to be especially convincing. And the WW issue is not to be ignored either.

 

[Paul#42]

good progress.
Nice killing ratio. Leader luck looks different

Thanks for the pic - I'm on holiday (at home)

I'm a little indifferent about our landing spot - Olives is save, Chanca 2 is right on the money. I tend to play it the save way and fight our way to the same position. It might take more turns to get to their heart but I also value a secure base.

So slightly in favor of landing on Olive Desert. Let's rumble!!

I'm strong in favor however on focussing on cav production over MoW. We might need them but it's still possible that we need them on an inland sea (remember Cotm23, anyone?), our now produced MoW might be worthless in such a case.

 

[Abegweit]

good progress.
Nice killing ratio. Leader luck looks different

Not different at all. Same old. Same old.

I'm strong in favor however on focussing on cav production over MoW.

Agreed. But we do need to be careful about Theo and Gil building settlers so we do need to keep track of those two boats, and watch out for any new ones. If bad news happens, we will need a couple of MoWs to take them out.

We might need them but it's still possible that we need them on an inland sea (remember Cotm23, anyone?), our now produced MoW might be worthless in such a case.

Scary thought. It would take bombers to deal with that. Or a million marines. Perhaps both. Another reason to keep up science until we know more. If we ever get an army I suggest that we use it for scouting and pillaging. Regular cav can easily take care of anything the barbs can throw at us until we get to Stronghold and map info is important.

 

[Andronicus]

Having a good think about our current situation a couple of points stick in my mind

We are militarily average compared to Barb Nation despite Barb Nation having BGs

Dutch lack guns, therefore Barb Nation does as well since Dutch have GLib

In a "normal" game with 58 cavs we would expect to eliminate an AI that is average to us but sig backward in less than 20 turns. The only impediment that we know of is the BGs. Abegweit's test showed they can be overcome provided our cav numbers are high (which they are).

My conclusion
Unless Gyathaar has further surprises in store (which would be no real surprise) then we should be able to get all our cavs onto the other continent and run through Barb Nation very quickly. Presumably they will discover guns soon so I suggest the less delay the better.

 

[markh]

I would prefer the Southern spot. Fewer losses on the landing and move the horde upwards.

Who is up now ? juballs ?

 

[Andronicus]

Roster

Abegweit
Redbad
Andronicus (swapped with juballs) - just played
juballs 2001 - UP
markh - ON DECK
Paul#42

I suggest people play anywhere between 5-10 turns depending on what they feel comfortable (may get quite intense once fighting Barb Nation and ongoing MM of specialist farms and salt connect / reconnect with horse upgrading is time consuming). I dont think it's any big deal that our turns end on the multiple of 10s. Sometimes its better to end a turn as an event requires team decision or a change in strategy.

 

[juballs2001]

alright guys i will play 5 or so turns tonight...

 

[juballs2001]

ummm... wouldnt that make abegweit up... cause basically i traded with andro.
so andro moved to number 1 and i moved to 4.

normally it goes me then abegweit, redbad etc.
so abegweit should ahve the next 5-10 and then redbad after him

 

[Abegweit]

Andronicus has it right.

 

[Paul#42]

ummm... wouldnt that make abegweit up... cause basically i traded with andro.
so andro moved to number 1 and i moved to 4.

normally it goes me then abegweit, redbad etc.
so abegweit should ahve the next 5-10 and then redbad after him

Häh?!?

#1 Abegweit
#2 Redbad
#4 Andronicus (swapped with juballs) - just played
#3 juballs 2001 - UP
#5 markh - ON DECK
#6 Paul#42

Redbad had his turnset to 340 AD, according to Roster juballs was up then.
Juballs changed with Andro, he played to 430 AD, so (just for this inning) juballs moves to slot #4. That's why he's up. No need to skip juballs, markh and me unless you want a bucket of "Lost turn at bats"...

Andronicus has it right.

Finally I understood this one...

 

[Andronicus]

@ juballs
there has been quite a bit written in this thread between sets, so I can see how it is easy to get confused if you are not reading frequently (and even sometimes if you are reading frequently). Please ensure you have read at least the posts from Redbad's post 538 where he explains the workings of resource connect disconnect.

The important points include
Science
- dont research / trade chivalry
- ensure you have enough money to buy with cash (not gpt) the AIs free tech when gift them up and then destroy them in same turn (I dont think you should gift them up in interturn) - so Dr Evil does not learn the techs If you cant do both of these tasks then delay gifting / buying until you can
- use science farms as primary research, can be supplemented with low research rate but we are more efficient using our commerce for tax as we have markets not banks

Science farms
- need to be switching over to workers for upcoming steam.
- should not work 1 or 2 fpt tiles if poss, better to hire a scientist
- use civassist to tell when town grows so can reassign the new citizen
- use civassist to tell when town about to starve so can switch a scientist back to growth cycle

Military
20+spt cities building cavs (look for opportunities to get to 40, 27 or 20spt)
15 and 10spt are the numbers preferred for horse builds in all other rax towns, building horses and upgrading
5-6 MoW are probably enough at this stage
Land in south with at least 4 caravels full - include settler, musket and a slave (to disband to rush rax for healing)
Attack and raze
Try to avoid causing WW during our GA (attack with large force from outside cultural borders)
I probably forgotten something importantt - p'raps someone else might like to add / change

 

[Andronicus]

I'm off for a weekend of running competitions in the outback, wont be back till Mon night (no internet access out there)

Looking forward to seeing a dent in Dr Evil's power chart when I get back

 

[Redbad]

Hey there
At the moment the weather overhere is supreme and we have the worldcup football going on. So I'm afraid I won't be of much use in the next preriod. I'll popp in now and then, to see if can say something useful and when it's my turn to state if I can play or want a skip.

 

[juballs2001]

the earliest i can get to my turnset is tommorow morning...
i will post by tommorow night

 

[Paul#42]

Let's have a (short) world cup break...

We are still 4th in turns played, 1st in score, posts and territory . Let the xteam have the lead in culture if they like

no need to hurry.