SGOTM 10 - Team Liz

[Paul#42]

Do the pirates build (start) as many wonders as the average stupid AI does?
Could we rely on recieving a message "Pirates build Cope's" if they get astronomy via TT?

Then we could try leaving Sumeria and Byzantines alive to gain us the IA starting techs...

 

[Paul#42]

I'd say kill Gil (and Bill)
Gil of course gets an exile town first. Somewhere, where he will not be chased by other AI (incl. Pirates too soon...) We can later move him around

reasoning:
Gil's land is so nice. Theodora should be our best research partner.

 

[Abegweit]

If we take klarius' word on this (and I'm in favour of that) this means that TT wil expire with Education.

No. It means the opposite. The top panel is completely unreliable, and Gyathaar told us it is. The other panels are generated from the rules and are accurate.

TT does not expire. Otherwise this fact would be listed at the bottom, and it isn't. The cost is 20g and it is available.

BGs do not require iron or gunpowder. The top panel copied from the cannon description, is wrong. The bottom, generated from the rules, is accurate. And the stats are accurate too, because they are generated from the rules as well.

My idea about this is that the barbs already have them at this very moment.

Of course they do. They are generated by TT. Gyathaar already told this. How many they have is another story since the rate of generation can be changed in the editor.

The sooner we can bring in large numbers of cavalry the easier it will be to knock them out.

Cavalry cannot fight these babies. We really need to abandon this idea. MoWs can. Possibly some sort of combined attack between MoWs and armies might be more efficient than MoWs on their own.

 

[Abegweit]

Do the pirates build (start) as many wonders as the average stupid AI does?

I can't see how this could be changed. This is hardcoded.

Could we rely on recieving a message "Pirates build Cope's" if they get astronomy via TT?

Right now they are building the Lighthouse.

 

[Redbad]

the fact that a wonder expires or not is automatically generated from the rules. You can trust the civilopedia with that. The description on top is totally unreliable.

I don't know about your english Abegweit, but I'd say it expires with Education.

 

[Abegweit]

At some point, perhaps over the weekend, I'll set up a scenario to see how bad the carnage will be if cavs attempt to attack BGs. Also to find out how many MoWs, it would takes to fight them.

 

[Abegweit]

I don't know about your english Abegweit, but I'd say it expires with Education.

And I'd say you should look up the proper entry in the Pedia instead of taking cheap shots which only serve to make you look foolish. This is the right one.

Edit: Note that it doesn't give any culture.

 

[Redbad]

Alright, you got me convinced. Now I am too of the opinion that it doesn't expire.

So we have to ask ourselfs if trading techs with the science AIs is more to our advantage then to the barbarians.

 

[Abegweit]

Alright, you got me convinced. Now I am too of the opinion that it doesn't expire.

OK. Good. Let's move on.

So we have to ask ourselfs if trading techs with the science AIs is more to our advantage then to the barbarians.

I'm not really afraid of them getting any early ME techs. They'll probably eventually get to Gunpowder whatever we do and we will just have to deal with that. Assuming that we don't make the mistake of gifting them into the IA, there's not anything else I'm afraid of them getting except Astronomy - and then only if they get it much before we get Navigation.

Realistically, what can we get from the AI? Their ME free techs certainly. I'm hoping for currency too. After that? Invention, Gunpowder seem to be all that is reasonable beyond that. WRT IA techs, we need to know the exact mechanism by which the GL works before we try any stunts at that level.

 

[Abegweit]

War plans for Juballs:

1. Revolt ASAP.
2. Finish off Maya. At minimum, Palenque has to go. The two cities down on the peninsula are a judgement call...
3. I agree with the idea of attacking Bill first. Since we are heading into Anarchy, Sumeria would be too soon. Besides they are still useful trading partners. I think we should let Bill keep the three cities in the southeast for leader-farming, taking Utrecht, Tikal and whatever the city in the fog is (Groningen?). Thoughts on this?

Settlers:
1. the one in the north-east under the archer goes 1 se as agreed.
2. the one in the south-east to the mountain s-s-se of Cambridge?

Edit: there'll be one more settler before the revolt. I suggest the mountain 2W of Copan.

 

[juballs2001]

bill? i assume is the orange guys to the south... im guessing the Dutch.

i am currently reading through the posts... i will take the game and play today and post possibly tonight or tommorow

 

[Paul#42]

10 550 riot in Chichén Itza, Reading and Warwick because I disbanded Tiwanaku and so temporairly lost the wine

riots in three towns? You know that it's no exploit to enter city screen on the first riot and browse them all to change citizens? (Unless you work a tile twice with two towns which is the forbidden gold mine exploit)
Especially if you have a reason (cancelled lux trade, end of war happiness, begin of war weariness) to think that more than one town is subject to unhappiness, it's worth it.

 

[Abegweit]

Reading got two whip unhappiness transferred to it from Tiwanaku. Redbad quite properly has it on scientist duty now. These things should actually be discovered beforehand. War unhappiness is a different story.

Another observation from the save: there are twelve workers cutting down a single jungle near Gloucester. Three is more than enough.

 

[Abegweit]

I'm not very good at using the editor but I did put together a scenario to figure out BGs. Note that our all units are all regulars, but then so are theirs...

Observations:
1) MoWs appear to take about one HP off each BG for each bombardment. Occasionally two, more often none.
2) BGs usually take one HP off a cavalry, occasionally more. I'm surprised at how infrequently this happens and wondered if I set up the stats wrong, but I can't see how. Perhaps I don't understand exactly how bombardment works.
3) BGs do not move! Therefore the barb capital is all we have to worry about. The rest is standard stuff.
4) BGs will not bombard full-strength cav armies. They don't even attack MoWs or regular cavs! ! What's going on? Are they paper tigers? Have I set this up right?
5) A cav army can easily take down 1 BG before it needs a rest. 2 if it is lucky.
6) Ordinary cavs make a great combination with MoWs. The MoWs take HPs off and the cavs move in for the kill.
7) Since BGs have the highest defensive strength, they always get set up for MoW abuse.
8) It takes about 2 cavs to take down one full strength BG w/o MoW support.
9) MoWs cannot kill BGs. Do they only have sea lethal bombard?

Conclusions:
1) Assuming I have set up this scenario properly, MoWs are of limited use. We need control of the waters and protection for our transports but that's about it. Oh. And don't forget the GA
2) A classical land-and-absorb the punishment technique is probably the way to go until we get to the capital. We are probably facing SID-level unit production and support though.
3) I see no reason why we should go looking for IA units. Steam and Industry for production, perhaps, but no units. Aside, possibly, from marines.
4) Cavs are indeed the way to go. I admit it. I was wrong So much so that it may well be better to get to MT before Astronomy.
5) Leader farms

The scenario is attached. Save it in your Conquests Scenarios folder, then load it with "Civ Content" from the Main Menu.

The ineffectiveness of BGs really really surprises me. Can anyone see what I may have done wrong? OTOH, I have never seen an AI arty unit actually bombard except defensively so maybe it's true.

 

[Andronicus]

Thats very helpful Abegweit
Interesting that they dont move the BGs despite being able to. Means we have no concerns about landings on our home continent.

With lots of units, hopefully backward, we should be able to generate leaders in Barbie land to form more cav armies to wipe out the BGs

The bombardment of BGs (9) is less than a bomber or arty (both 12) and those dont always hit.

I dont think there is any way of taking out BGs before cavs, so the earliest conquest of Barbie land would appear to be once we have a force of cavs / cav armies.

The implications of these findings are that we should not keep AI other than Byz to research towards invention whilst we do astronomy, and our research goals should be Magnetism and MT

Is it possible we could attack with caravel loaded cavs (possibly ship chained)? and save researching to Mag.

 

[Abegweit]

Is it possible we could attack with caravel loaded cavs (possibly ship chained)? and save researching to Mag.

A GA would be nice.

Aside from that, I really wish someone would confirm my findings because several of them really run against my intuition.

 

[Andronicus]

A GA would be nice.

Aside from that, I really wish someone would confirm my findings because several of them really run against my intuition.

Um yes a GA

Cant do any test - at work

 

[Redbad]

riots in three towns? You know that it's no exploit to enter city screen on the first riot and browse them all to change citizens? (Unless you work a tile twice with two towns which is the forbidden gold mine exploit)
Especially if you have a reason (cancelled lux trade, end of war happiness, begin of war weariness) to think that more than one town is subject to unhappiness, it's worth it.

Yes, very good. Both riots would have been limited to only 1 city.

 

[Redbad]

Another observation from the save: there are twelve workers cutting down a single jungle near Gloucester. Three is more than enough.

When a worker loses its movement by stepping on the tile that needs improving, then having 1 worker do the job is the most economical. Have it done by 3 or 12 workers are just degrees in less efficiency. The charm of having more workers do the job is in seeing some results in a short period of time. Come to think of it, I actually like the numbers 4 and 8:
8 can road/irrigate a tile in 1 turn
8 can cut a marsh in 2 turns
8 can cut a jungle in 3 turns
4 can cut a forest in 1 turn
4 can road in 1 turn
4 can irrigate in 1 turn
It doesn't work for hills and mountains though, but improving them in corrupt areas isn't helpful anyway.

 

[Redbad]

A GA would be nice.

We don't really need the MoW to get us in a GA. As getting Leonardo's is useful anyway for upgrading our horsemen to cavalry, we only need to capture Constantinople (Colossus) before finishing Leo's.