SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Mitchum]

But we need to get a fair few warriors out in that case. As the decay delay time is 15 turns I'm back in favour of warrior first. 9 hammers in a warrior is better than 11 hammers in something we won't finish building.

Yes, in Dhoomstriker's test c [Partially build a Warrior -> Worker -> continue working on the Warrior while growing to Size 3 -> complete the Warrior ASAP], he does exactly that. My question is whether or not we want to just go ahead and finish that first warrior before starting the settler, which is my Test iii: Grow to 2 ASAP, finish warrior -> worker. It puts our two settlers 2 turns behind and we're 3 worker turns behind, but we have 22 extra warrior turns.

On another note, can we all try and keep the comments less personal? If you really have something you need to say, try and at least make a general statement that's not targetted at anyone in particular. Or even better, try and be constructive rather than critical. This for instance is attempting to do both.

I think I have done this so far. If not, please point to an offending post so that I can be aware of I've done it.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Is Test C's best-REX-possible given our Religious Beeline a safe enough option?

Yes, in Dhoomstriker's test c [Partially build a Warrior -> Worker -> continue working on the Warrior while growing to Size 3 -> complete the Warrior ASAP], he does exactly that. My question is whether or not we want to just go ahead and finish that first warrior before starting the settler, which is my Test iii: Grow to 2 ASAP, finish warrior -> worker. It puts our two settlers 2 turns behind and we're 3 worker turns behind, but we have 22 extra warrior turns.

With Test C, we still get a 2nd Warrior out relatively early, but as you say, we get it out a bit later than the earliest we possibly can get it, with the gain of an improved empire. I would argue that we still get this Warrior out early enough to still have Barb Animals roaming around, which is a safe time to get it out in my mind.

For a team that seems to want REX as their secondary goal, Test C seems to be most in line with this goal.

So, the most important question is: will we have enough Warriors in order to keep our empire safe?

The answer is to do all of these things and we should have enough Warriors:
a) Keep our initial Warrior nearby, scouting for city locations 2 and 3
b) Use Monotheism, if possible, to expand the borders of a second city, to help reduce the fog of war and to increase the city's defensive level, should we find ourselves needing to whip a unit. Alternatively, we get Judaism in our capitol and its borders can expand to the next level that much quicker, again helping expand the busting of the fog of war.
c) Plan out our fog-busting locations. 1 unit can cover an area of up to 5 x 5 = 25 squares. Realistically, it'll be more like 15-20 squares, depending upon how close we park the Warrior to our cities and how much Coastal overlap there is
d) Try to keep our initial Warrior alive. That means healing him immediately (with the possible exception of first moving him for one turn to within our borders or to a Forest on the Coast after winning a battle, for a better healing location). It also means running from any Bear that appears, so ending his turn each turn instead of Fortifying him will help the UP player watch for this risk. It also means trying to stick to Forests and Hills when scouting, as much as possible, after the first 20 turns or so, when Animals begin to appear
e) Be prepared to delay our 3rd Settler if we lose a Warrior, spending 4 additional turns to build its replacement


Summary
If we keep our Warriors close and if we take good care of them, 3 Warriors (including our initial Warrior) should be able to help us fog-bust. Add in religious border expansion and the chance to be able to whip units before Axemen come out, and we should be laughing.

 

[Irgy]

Ok, I have moved. Here are the results:

Spoiler :

Latest (merged) PPP
1. Move warrior SW.
2. If warrior reveals something unexpected that might affect settling, take a screenshot and stop. Otherwise, continue below.
3. Settle in place
4. Set production to Stonehenge
5. Set research to Polytheism.
6. Don't click end turn
7. Post a screenshot.

I have set production to warrior rather than stonehenge, but I haven't pressed end turn so it's neither here nor there really.

Bit of a silly question, but what do I do with the save again? I've attached it here, do I need to put it anywhere else?

PPP for the rest of the turn set
1. Grow to size 2, then switch production to worker (leaving warrior in queue).
2. Explore with warrior. As the goal is to find a second city site and not to meet AIs, I will start west, then loop from the coast in a big semicircle until I hit the coast to the east.
3. Switch to Agriculture as soon as Hinduism is founded (either by us or the AI).
4. Um, that's about it actually.

Discussion points:
* What sort of things do I need to stop for that I might not think of? I'll probably meet some AI, but there's nothing really to decide with them yet. I just need to not declare war on them

I would like to play this roughly 24 hours from now to get things moving. If I can't play it at that time I'll be at a wedding a few hundered kilometers away and would therefore probably have to swap with someone.

 

[Irgy]

And now some discussion of what we can see.

Well, we missed silver that we'd have got by moving 1SE, but we'd also have put two tundras and a snow(!) in our capital's BFC. I think I'd still actually have preferred the plains hill start and the silver, but it was a risk either way and we had to pick one.

I marked a spot that looks like the best place to work the silver from, although more exploration is needed to confirm it. That spot could be quite a good Moai statues site with it's four lighthouse powered fresh water lakes.

The plains hill is looking extremely likely to have a surprise for us, as well as at least one of the two grasslands.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Comments on the rest of the turnset

Bit of a silly question, but what do I do with the save again? I've attached it here, do I need to put it anywhere else?

Not a silly question, but a valid one. The upload form won't let us upload a saved game until we've played out at least 1 turn. Since you're taking the full first turnset, there should be no need to upload the file to the upload form until you're done your turnset. Doing so, on turn 1, say, would just give the other teams conclusive evidence that we settled on turn 0.

* What sort of things do I need to stop for that I might not think of? I'll probably meet some AI, but there's nothing really to decide with them yet. I just need to not declare war on them

Yes, declare peace immediately with anyone that you meet, please.
There won't be any trading opportunities this early on in the game.

Optional reasons why you might upload a screenshot and ask for advice:
- If the Warrior gets wounded by an Animal and you want advice on whether to heal in place or to move a square to a better defensive location before healing
- If you want advice on the most efficient way to scout the terrain part-way through your turnset
- If you spot an interesting Resource and want feedback on whether we should scout the area or leave it be

For any of those optional reasons, I would say that it is up to you how long to wait for feedback before proceeding.

2. Explore with warrior. As the goal is to find a second city site and not to meet AIs, I will start west, then loop from the coast in a big semicircle until I hit the coast to the east.

If we have a really large landmass, then we should try to set a boundary on how far you stray from the capitol before looping back. Does 15 squares away from the capitol sound like a good maximum radius to stray?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Uploading the Saved Game at the end of your turnset

what do I do with the save again?

When you're done your turnset, you can visit the Upload Form.

There, you are asked for your player name (your Forum Username). You are also asked to browse to the saved game file. Upload the saved game from the end of your turnset.

Leave the checkbox that appears below the saved game field uncheckmarked, as it is only used if we lose to a Conquest Defeat.

EDIT: The Upload Form "knows" who you are because each of our Usernames are in the SGOTM database, so there's no need to select a team name on the Upload Form--the system is already tracking you!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Making ourselves feel good

Well, we missed silver that we'd have got by moving 1SE, but we'd also have put two tundras and a snow(!) in our capital's BFC.

It's interesting that none of us pushed for settling 1S, which would have also grabbed us the 2 Corns and the Silver. We'd have lost 2 Hills for certain, only knowingly gaining the Tundra Hills square, so there's no reason to beat ourselves up over the situation, as no one predicted a Plains Hills Silver square.

In fact, we will be laughing later on if Horse, Copper, or Iron appears to our city's NW or if Copper or Iron appears on the Plains Hills square.

I think I'd still actually have preferred the plains hill start and the silver, but it was a risk either way and we had to pick one.

For a Cultural game, I'd still take in place over the PH site, knowing where the Silver is, but could have been convinced to settle 1S had the Warrior been placed elsewhere. As it is, we have a nice, balanced capitol with plenty of Food, Production, and Cottageable land.

I marked a spot that looks like the best place to work the silver from, although more exploration is needed to confirm it. That spot could be quite a good Moai statues site with it's four lighthouse powered fresh water lakes.

A good idea about Moai and a Seafood Resource would help us to decide. That said, I would suggest that this location would not make for a good Legendary city, nor for a good land-grabbing city, so I'd suggest moving the Warrior something like 1W Grass Hills For, 1SW Grass, 1NW Whatever that is.

one of the two grasslands.

If a Forest grows on either one, we'll know that there isn't a Resource where the Forest grew.

 

[unclethrill]

I like the 15 square idea.

I think that it looks like water to the south so I suggest we move the warrior in a NWish direction and begin the loop that way.

 

[unclethrill]

On a testing note, in the last SGOTM, we had issue with keeping a test game updated for everything discovered in each TS. I think we can agree that the more accurate the test save is the closer our test results will mirror the actual game.

I have very little experience with WB and in the past have shown myself that I can spend many hours accomplishing absolutely nothing positive when trying to update/create test save in WB.

Do we have anyone who is fairly accomplished in their WB skills such that after each TS we can have an updated test save to work with? I know its a lot of work and I don't have the time or skill at WB to do it but if someone does, it would make a huge difference for the team.

Any volunteers or other suggestions?

 

[Mitchum]

Bummer about the silver, but I think we're still in good shape. I agree with Dhoomstriker that we should settle this Silver city at a later date (maybe 4th or 5th) after we've sealed off more of our land to the west, north and east. From the looks of it, it would be almost impossible for an AI to steal the silver from us unless the land really opens up to the SE. We'll always be able to hook up the silver after our second border pop if we need it for happiness.

2. Explore with warrior. As the goal is to find a second city site and not to meet AIs, I will start west, then loop from the coast in a big semicircle until I hit the coast to the east.

I'm not sure that the warrior should go all the way to the coast on the east. That could be a LONG way away. Unless you meant until you hit the coast FROM the east.

 

[Mitchum]

On a testing note, in the last SGOTM, we had issue with keeping a test game updated for everything discovered in each TS. I think we can agree that the more accurate the test save is the closer our test results will mirror the actual game.

I have very little experience with WB and in the past have shown myself that I can spend many hours accomplishing absolutely nothing positive when trying to update/create test save in WB.

Do we have anyone who is fairly accomplished in their WB skills such that after each TS we can have an updated test save to work with? I know its a lot of work and I don't have the time or skill at WB to do it but if someone does, it would make a huge difference for the team.

Any volunteers or other suggestions?

I can do it. I don't go to the same pain-staking efforts that Dhoomstriker did to make his river look the EXACT same or to insure that I use the right kind of forests. But, the tiles will be in the correct location and the resources and yields for each tile will be correct. I can't afford to spend 2 hours drawing a river...

Cool?

 

[unclethrill]

Bummer about the silver, but I think we're still in good shape. I agree with Dhoomstriker that we should settle this Silver city at a later date (maybe 4th or 5th) after we've sealed off more of our land to the west, north and east. From the looks of it, it would be almost impossible for an AI to steal the silver from us unless the land really opens up to the SE. We'll always be able to hook up the silver after our second border pop if we need it for happiness.



I'm not sure that the warrior should go all the way to the coast on the east. That could be a LONG way away. Unless you meant until you hit the coast FROM the east.

I think the warrior should head NW and start to circle around the city in a north east semicircle direction after several steps in the NW direction.

 

[unclethrill]

I can do it. I don't go to the same pain-staking efforts that Dhoomstriker did to make his river look the EXACT same or to insure that I use the right kind of forests. But, the tiles will be in the correct location and the resources and yields for each tile will be correct. I can't afford to spend 2 hours drawing a river...

Cool?

AWESOME! I think having an up-to-date test save will make for much more accurate testing.

I should have some time for testing soon. This is the last week of the semester for me so late next week/ early the week after I should have a good bit more free time for testing. Hopefully not in time for the first TS but ya never know!

 

[Mitchum]

Summary
If we keep our Warriors close and if we take good care of them, 3 Warriors (including our initial Warrior) should be able to help us fog-bust. Add in religious border expansion and the chance to be able to whip units before Axemen come out, and we should be laughing.

Thank you for adding a Summary to your post. I actually like to read the whole post, but this provides the Cliff's Notes version for the lazier members of our team...

I agree with this plan. I think we should be fine if we take care of our warriors.

I'm in favor of Dhoomstrikers test C [Partially build a Warrior -> Worker -> continue working on the Warrior while growing to Size 3 -> complete the Warrior ASAP].

 

[BLubmuz]

What a motivating, inspirational speech!

A good leader is someone who improves the morale of the team members, not someone who shoots them down.

A good leader is someone who strives for openness and inclusion of others' ideas, not someone who seems to push their own opinion as the one, true, right way.

A good leader is one who pays attention to the input of their followers.

A good leader strives to build consensus when it is lacking and does not try to use the opportunity to bash his or her own opinion down upon the team.

I challenge you: Can you step up to the plate? Can you become this good leader for us?

I apologize, i'm very busy in those days and really some of your post do not help me.

Actually, i have no time to read all our thread, but i promise i'll do tomorrow (i hope).

Your post that particularly scared me (along with this one) is this one:

Voting Polls
What else do we need? 24 hours after his PPP was posted.

Please, try to be less "bureaucratic".

I've found some minute only to post this one, i'm busy 'til next Thursday, but i'll try to contribute at my best in the meantime.

EDIT: just noted a screenie.
S**t and double sh*t, we missed a riverside silver on plains hill. Dammit! We missed an ice too, probably.
I told it!

 

[Mitchum]

PPP for the rest of the turn set
1. Grow to size 2, then switch production to worker (leaving warrior in queue).
2. Explore with warrior. As the goal is to find a second city site and not to meet AIs, I will start west, then loop from the coast in a big semicircle until I hit the coast to the east.
3. Switch to Agriculture as soon as Hinduism is founded (either by us or the AI).
4. Um, that's about it actually.

Discussion points:
* What sort of things do I need to stop for that I might not think of? I'll probably meet some AI, but there's nothing really to decide with them yet. I just need to not declare war on them

I would like to play this roughly 24 hours from now to get things moving. If I can't play it at that time I'll be at a wedding a few hundered kilometers away and would therefore probably have to swap with someone.

I agree with this PPP (with the caveat of not sending the warrior all the way to the east coast) and I would like you to play in 24 hours. Obviously, your citizen is working the corn your entire turnset, correct?

 

[Irgy]

If we have a really large landmass, then we should try to set a boundary on how far you stray from the capitol before looping back. Does 15 squares away from the capitol sound like a good maximum radius to stray?

I think I actually misrepresented what I was thinking of doing. There seems to be coast (unless it's another lake) just outside our visibility range to the west, I was only talking about walking to there or so, not all the way to wherever the coast turns north and cuts me off.

My intention was to loop around just barely outside our visiblity range to see all the nearest tiles first, but if people think I should go a bit further (e.g. up to 15 tiles) I can do that instead.

A good idea about Moai and a Seafood Resource would help us to decide. That said, I would suggest that this location would not make for a good Legendary city, nor for a good land-grabbing city, so I'd suggest moving the Warrior something like 1W Grass Hills For, 1SW Grass, 1NW Whatever that is.

Indeed it's not a good early spot to settle early, just something to keep in mind for later. It won't block off any land either. I just like to mark potential city spots as I go to make sure I don't muck up one city location when I settle another. It's not worth exploring down there too soon either I expect compared to exploring other places.

 

[Irgy]

... your citizen is working the corn your entire turnset, correct?

Yes, one corn until growth, then the other corn (and building a worker) as well after that.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

More comments on the upcoming turnset

I like the 15 square idea.

Great. The number was arbitrary, but you don't normally settle cities that far out anyway, so 15 is probably a good maximum. Feel free to loop the Warrior back much sooner than that far, especially if you spot an interesting Resource.

I think that it looks like water to the south so I suggest we move the warrior in a NWish direction and begin the loop that way.

What we should discuss is whether we'd like a Coastal or non-Coastal city. If we don't want a Coastal city, then I would agree that the Warrior should go NW and try to stay somewhat inland.

However, if we're cool with either a Coastal or non-Coastal city (that would be my vote), I'd like to see us sticking close to the Coast, so that we can see the Ocean squares the first time that we go by and thus hopefully, we won't miss a Seafood Resource by 1 square in a fat cross just because we didn't see it.


Also, recall the following points:

Early exploration suggestion:
Early exploration should be focused on finding good spots to settle nearby. If you come to the Coast, I'd say follow the Coast, so that we can see if there are any Seafood Resources there. Exposing the nearby hidden squares should be a priority over any other task.

As for the Coastal exploration, here's a tip to improve your gameplay, if you have the following layout:
C1 C2 C3
L1 L2 L3
L4 L5 L6

where C = Coast and L = Land

and where you are at L3 and plan to uncover hidden squares by walking towards L1, then you're better off going from L3 to L5 to L1, instead of L3 to L2 to L1, as L2 won't reveal any new water area, but moving to L5 gains us free exploration.

Early contact suggestions:
Meeting AIs early on is discouraged (although you can't control whether an AI's Scout comes to meet us), as we are tech beelining Monotheism and thus they won't have any techs that we can piggyback off of--instead, they will be able to piggyback off of our tech knowledge, should we meet them.

Upon meeting the first AI, stop playing your turnset and go into the Espionage menu. Assign a weighting putting all of our Espionage points towards that AI. If you meet 2 AI at the same time, save the game and stop play to consult with the team to see which AI should get 100% of our Espionage points, before you finish the current turn. EDIT: If you don't have time to ask us, pick one of those AIs and give only one of them Weight 1, with the rest of the AIs remaining at Weight 0 for the foreseeable future. Feel free to ask me if you want to know why.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

World-buildering

I can do it. I don't go to the same pain-staking efforts that Dhoomstriker did to make his river look the EXACT same or to insure that I use the right kind of forests.

The right kind of Forests only matters when we're fog-gazing, which is probably not Unclethrill's intent, so the Forest Type shouldn't matter.

From my River experiments, what matters more is the relative location of the River on the map, as the "River pattern" differs but repeats. So, if you start your effort from my saved game, then all of the Rivers should look very close to each other, if my theory is right. Again, this point won't really matter, except for when you can't tell where a River mouth starts or ends and thus aren't sure if a square is irrigated or not. Usually you can tell just by opening up the actual saved game and hovering your mouse plus turning on square Yields, so again, the issue is minor.

Cool?

So, those minor inaccuracies will not matter and thus will be cool in my eyes.