SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Dhoomstriker]

So by getting the worker 1 turn earlier, the mine will be ready when the city is settled?

No, as I said, the Silver will be unworked initially. But it will be unworked for 1 less turn.

T55 Settler founds City 2 where Irgy put it. Start working the unimproved Silver because it's the best square that we can work. The Lake alternative is not an option until we research Fishing.
T56 The Silver is still unmined
T57 The Silver is mined. If we delay the Worker by 1 turn, then the Silver would still be unmined
T58 Here's the turn where the Silver would be mined if we delayed the Worker by 1

It's the difference of +1 Hammer and +4 Commerce that are earned on T57 where you see the difference.

Even if we settle 1S of the Deer (T56) or to the east of the Silver on the Ice square (also on T56), we will still gain that extra +1 Hammer and +4 Commerce on Turn 57.

Does that make sense or should I keep trying to explain the idea?

 

[Irgy]

I vote A also (finish the warrior), although I can certainly see both sides.

Mostly so that we can explore the land in between Zara and ourselves before the settler is built. If the current exploring warrior wasn't being chased away by lions and the like we could get it there, but as it stands if we don't get the second warrior out now we'll have built a settler before we know whether there's better land towards Zara. If we don't build a city there with the first settler we are likely to miss the only good spot.

If it was two extra turns though I'd vote the other way.

 

[BLubmuz]

Back to work err... to play.
OK, i've run several small tests.
I must agree with Dhoom that stopping the warrior will gain us something. my warrior was still able to scout East to reveal enough land.

According to my autolog, Bombay was founded in turn 59, with warrior 2 left to 1 turn.
In case of danger we can simply switch and he will be ready, but this way we gain 1 turn with settler 2.

I played until turn 69, PH in, new research to set, settler 2 1 turn to complete.
I moved Paris with WB, it's too close. I've never seen 2 capital so close in a normal map. some barb archer in sight.

This is with farm corn > mine PH (once a forest grew there, it's better go fast) > farm corn > mine silver

I think this is better than farm x2 > mine silver even if we delay by some 6-7 turns the silver we gain a lot on the 2nd settler.
I consider this a priority, see our neighbour.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

RE: Judaism in our Capitol

So does that mean that you want to delay settling city #2 until after we learn Monotheism? That will be a 5 or 6 turn delay...

I was talking about the Judaism in our capitol when we believed it was almost certainly going to happen with a turn or two... the test game does not support this reasoning, so I gave up on this argument.

Forget the Double Holy City (which was the least important of my reasons, anyway). What I was really hoping for was to have our State Religion in two different cities early on. In fact, if we settle City 2 a couple of turns before founding Judaism, which will be the case if we make City 2 the Silver City, then there is a small chance that Hinduism will spread to the city before Judaism is founded there. The chance is small, but I'd rather miss out on that chance than delay founding the Silver City.

To be honest, even if we don't have our State Religion in two cities, it won't matter that much. City 2 (if we make it the Silver City) will be busy building Warriors and Workers for a while, anyway, before it even considers getting a building. Without Hammers spent on a building, Organized Religion wouldn't help the city even if it had the State Religion in it.

I'm not sure that we want a bunch of great prophets or a bunch of Great Shrines. I think after our first great prophet, we should be shooting for great scientists and a great engineer.

I would agree, for a Diplo game.

For a Cultural game, the Shrines can be somewhat useful, as our economy will stink when we are building Cathedrals in place of Markets, Grocers, and Universities. Considering that our capitol will probably spawn most of our empire's non-Great-Artist Great People, and will probably spawn random ones due to having different Wonders built there (moreso for a Cultural game--Diplo game we might want to focus more on additional expansion or war). Still, the Holy Shrine stuff was just a minor point anyway, as each one only adds 1 Great Person Point per turn. It was the early spread of a religion that could become our State Religion that had me most interested.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

EDIT: My browser messed up, so I re-wrote the last half of this message.

Back to work err... to play.
OK, i've run several small tests.
I must agree with Dhoom that stopping the warrior will gain us something. my warrior was still able to scout East to reveal enough land.

What I forgot to add is that within Unclethrill's turnset, when our cultural borders expand, some of those hidden squares to the east of the Warrior's current location will be revealed "for free" by our borders expanding.

I moved Paris with WB, it's too close. I've never seen 2 capital so close in a normal map.

In order to get my Rivers to work, I simply found an empty part of the map that worked, and built around there. So the relative location to another AI is likely to be wrong.

Did you happen to move the French using Mitchum's latest Test Game? If so, did you save the game immediately thereafter? That way, you can upload the change and we can all play from it.


Then again, if you didn't bother to reproduce it's city size, it's cultural level, and whatever buildings it may have had, then moving their capitol isn't really all that useable in our test game, anyway. If they are in the middle of building a unit, I'd suggest giving them that unit for free, instead of making them simply lose their current production level. That should make up for the lost Hammers in their build queue + the lost Food in their foodbox when you rebuild their capitol.

some barb archer in sight.

As I said, they can spawn on or just after Turn 50.

According to my autolog, Bombay was founded in turn 59, with warrior 2 left to 1 turn...
This is with farm corn > mine PH (once a forest grew there, it's better go fast) > farm corn > mine silver

Here is the problem:
When the decision comes in between improving the 2nd Corn or the Plains Hills square, we are in the midst of building a Settler.

Before improving the Corn = + 3 Food = + 3 Hammers into the Settler
Before improving the Plains Hills River square = + 2 Hammers = + 2 Hammers into the Settler

After improving the Corn = + 6 Food = + 6 Hammers into the Settler
After improving the Plains Hills River square = + 4 Hammers = + 4 Hammers into the Settler

How is it better to improve the Plains Hills River square first?

And, just to make the Corn a stronger case, the Fast Worker can move from one Corn to the other Corn and start irrigating IN THE SAME TURN. To move from either Corn (it doesn't matter which one you pick) onto the Plains Hills River square, you have to waste one Worker turn before you can begin mining.

I think this is better than farm x2 > mine silver even if we delay by some 6-7 turns the silver we gain a lot on the 2nd settler.

The decision should be between:
Corn -> Corn -> Plains Hills River -> Silver
OR
Corn -> Corn -> Silver -> Plains Hills River

Delaying improving the Corns is more inefficient than either scenario. However, I'm with Mitchum and Unclethrill in thinking that getting that Silver going ASAP after irrigating the Corns is far more important than getting the Plains Hills River square up ASAP after irrigating the Corns.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

My browser is messing up on me, making me double post...

 

[BLubmuz]

T55 Settler founds City 2 where Irgy put it.

Please explain us how in the hell you managed to settle on turn 55 .
I gained 1 turn farming the southern corn before mine the PH and i settled Bombay on turn 59.

This is due to the fact that the mine needs 6 turns, the farm needs 8, but they're actually 7 since you don't lose 1 turn moving. This way (2 farms + 1 mine for Dehli)
you start mining the silver the turn Bombay is founded, but settler 2 will be ready on turn 69.

There're 2 good news, if anyone has noted: Bombay is automatically connected and the silver too, thanks to the river and the merged borders.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Please explain us how in the hell you managed to settle on turn 55 .

Please see *three* messages above this one. I was trying to write the answer and then my browser messed up... the mess-up had something to do with pages refreshing due to moving the mouse wheel.


I can provide you a saved game, if you'd like to see it. Just tell me when approximately you'd like the saved game of. I.e. Maybe just before City 2 is founded? If not, what "event" approximately would you like to see a saved game for?

 

[BLubmuz]

EDIT: My browser messed up, so I re-wrote the last half of this message.
In order to get my Rivers to work, I simply found an empty part of the map that worked, and built around there. So the relative location to another AI is likely to be wrong.

Did you happen to move the French using Mitchum's latest Test Game? If so, did you save the game immediately thereafter? That way, you can upload the change and we can all play from it.

I see. Please edit the post i'm quoting, it's a mess with mine and yours melt.

for the save, ask and ye shall receive This fits with our strategy, didn't it?

 

[BLubmuz]

Please see *three* messages above this one. I was trying to write the answer and then my browser messed up... the mess-up had something to do with pages refreshing due to moving the mouse wheel.


I can provide you a saved game, if you'd like to see it. Just tell me when approximately you'd like the saved game of. I.e. Maybe just before City 2 is founded? If not, what "event" approximately would you like to see a saved game for?

i farmed the corn and i improved by 1 turn, not by 4-5. The settler for Bombay was ready on turn 57, lost turn 58, settled turn 59.

So i'm already with 2 farm first. also, you won't gain 2 hammers by mining the hill, but just one in settler/worker perspective, since you work a 3 yelds tile, not the unimproved PH. What you gain is 1c, but that can wait.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

It is just that they really wanted a double holy city. I was offering a way...

Thank you, but I don't really care that much about a double Holy City. I was just using that argument because no one seemed to care about the part that I thought was more important: getting the same religion in 2 cities early on without needing to use a Missionary.

A Missionary used early on not only costs Hammers, but it also has a higher chance of failing, as the smaller your cities are in size, the less "room" there is in terms of population for "tolerance of another religion."

In any case, I don't see the fuss about getting the double holy, as there is a good chance Christianity (using GPro) will give us a double-holy... unless we build City 4 before...

When do we plan to build City 4?

There shouldn't be a fuss about it at all. If we get one, so be it. It probably won't even be used, if we plan our Great People correctly. A Great Engineer + many Great Scientists for Diplo or many Great Artists for Cultural would be of course the best Great People to get.

City 4 = If we're happy with City 2 by the Silver, then my guess is the team is going to want to settle Cities 3 and 4 towards Zara, if the land supports doing so (i.e. there are enough decent Resources out there) and if we can keep the Barbs under control enough to do so.

 

[BLubmuz]

Corn -> Corn -> Plains Hills River -> Silver
OR
Corn -> Corn -> Silver -> Plains Hills River

Delaying improving the Corns is more inefficient than either scenario. However, I'm with Mitchum and Unclethrill in thinking that getting that Silver going ASAP after irrigating the Corns is far more important than getting the Plains Hills River square up ASAP after irrigating the Corns.

No discussion on corn first.
We must run a test to see pro and cons of silver vs. PH. The settler can even not be delayed, the research surely will gain. In this case, silver first. the lost moves are the same, even if forest grows. After those improvements, our workers can play a chess tournament.

There's another option, but this delays settler 2 by 2 turns, 1 at best: let Bombay wotk the corn until size 2, so the silver can wait. And start a much needed warrior, then the worker at size 2.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I see. Please edit the post i'm quoting, it's a mess with mine and yours melt.

I fixed up that message and my explanation. Please re-read it.

for the save, ask and ye shall receive This fits with our strategy, didn't it?

Thank you.

However, the saved game has you moving the Warrior into the Forest and is one turn later.

Not only do you highly risk the death of Warrior 1 by 2 Lion attacks within a few turns of each other, you increase the chance for other Barb units to spawn, because 1 of the Lions will no longer be fog-busting for us.

1) a unit fogbusting a 5x5 area without being on a hill? I always thought a unit fogbusts the area he can see.

That's an incorrect myth.

If you are skeptical, you can find messages on the forum where delving into the SDK has proved it. I have run my own test games with islands that are 5x5 and slightly bigger than 5x5, with a unit stationed in the middle of said islands. I was only ever able to get Barb units to spawn on the islands bigger than 5x5, and never on the islands that were 5x5, even though my unit could only see the 3x3 diametre squares, due to the middle square being flatland.

But, it's the SDK that proves it. Search for a comment by the username of "DanF," a well-known SDK-delver. There are other messages on the forum that also link to his message, so if you search for "DanF" and something related, such as "Barb" or "spawning" or something along those lines, you might find the relevant message. I'll only go and dig it up if someone asks me really nicely to do so, as I don't have my Civ 4 bookmarks with me on this computer and would have to search for the reference myself.

Logically, it's easy to program in "do not spawn a Barb if another unit is within 2 squares of it." It is VERY difficult to program in "take into account the visibility of every unit on the map, add up those visibilities, create an array or other mapping of the entire world and what's visible to all players, and then in the gaps, place some units." So from that standpoint alone, it should be easy enough to believe.

 

[Mitchum]

Please explain us how in the hell you managed to settle on turn 55 .

Hmmm... in my test I got Settler #2 on T54 and settled Bombay by the silver on T55. And in this test, I actually finished the warrior before starting the worker. I may be able to beat this by one turn if I go stright to the worker after growing to 3. My build in the capital was warrior #2 -> worker #1 -> Settler #2.

I am in the midst of a project, so I can't post the details. Hopefully you can reproduce this with the info above. And yes, I settled next to the lake, which connected my cities immediately as I mentioned in an earlier post.

By the way, I'm not voting for warrior first, but that is what I did in my first test game this morning. But, the voting seems to be leaning toward the warrior first..

 

[Dhoomstriker]

No discussion on corn first.
We must run a test to see pro and cons of silver vs. PH. The settler can even not be delayed, the research surely will gain. In this case, silver first. the lost moves are the same, even if forest grows. After those improvements, our workers can play a chess tournament.

There's another option, but this delays settler 2 by 2 turns, 1 at best: let Bombay wotk the corn until size 2, so the silver can wait. And start a much needed warrior, then the worker at size 2.

While you raise an interesting point about temporarily working the Corn with City 2, I think that doing so will have to happen in the future. I have already thought about this idea of working the Corn now and have dismissed it. Here's why:

1. We need Commerce now. That's our biggest bottleneck. If it weren't for this fact, we wouldn't settle a city by the Silver. So, Silver ASAP trumps everything. But, if that's not a good enough argument, I have a ton of other thoughts on the matter. As usual.

2. If we Mine the Plains Hills River square first, all that we do is mine it after Settler 2 is already built. So, we can't speed up Settler 2.

3. By improving the Silver Mine, we can use it as soon as it is ready. The Silver Mine provides 3 Hammers plus 6 Commerce. The Plains Hills River mine provides 4 Hammers plus 1 Commerce. Every turn that we send the Worker to work on the Plains Hills River square in favour of the Silver square gains us 1 Hammer at the cost of 5 Commerce. That's a terrible tradeoff.

4. We don't even need to work the Plains Hills River square right away, while we should work the Silver square right away. If we build a Warrior after Settler 2 (i.e. the first Settler that we produce using Hammers--the one that founds City 2), then we can have City 1's citizens work the Corn + Corn + a square that gives us at least 1 Food, growing the city in 4 turns. If we were to work the Plains Hills River square, we would take longer to grow the city, which is more inefficient at this stage, since we want to get to Size 4 ASAP, finish that Warrior ASAP after that, and then start on Settler 3. So, the "downtime" of when the Plains Hills River square is unmined is not noticed as much as it could be, as we can effectively use this "downtime" to instead work a square that gives us a bit of food.

5. I tried some scenarios with getting the Corn before the Silver, but it delayed our working of the Silver too much. At some point in the future, when Commerce isn't needed so badly, and hopefully when City 1 has a "somewhat decent square" to work in place of the Corn, we can "borrow" the Corn for a few turns in City 2. That time is not now. That time is sometime in the future, once we've mined the Hills for City 1, and certainly well after we've built The Oracle. Writing is our bottleneck. Let's reduce that bottleneck as much as we can now.

6. You might think that it would be worth it to work the Corn in City 2 during our "downtime" of improving the Silver. But that's only 2 turns. 2 turns * 6 Food per turn = only 12 Food. City 2 needs 33 Food in order to grow to Size 2. Since we won't be completing the growth of City 2 for a long time, that Food is better used in growing City 1 to Size 4 ASAP.

7. Weren't 6 reasons enough reasons? Am I really so unconvincing in my arguments?

 

[BLubmuz]

I fixed up that message and my explanation. Please re-read it.
done already
Thank you.

However, the saved game has you moving the Warrior into the Forest and is one turn later.

Not only do you highly risk the death of Warrior 1 by 2 Lion attacks within a few turns of each other, you increase the chance for other Barb units to spawn, because 1 of the Lions will no longer be fog-busting for us.
it's my test
seriously: what are the survival chances for that poor warrior if not fortified on a forest?
very low in case of a lion, close to 0 in case of a bear. i did not attack them, i just fortified on the forest.

That's an incorrect myth.
(...)
Logically, it's easy to program in "do not spawn a Barb if another unit is within 2 squares of it." It is VERY difficult to program in "take into account the visibility of every unit on the map, add up those visibilities, create an array or other mapping of the entire world and what's visible to all players, and then in the gaps, place some units." So from that standpoint alone, it should be easy enough to believe.

Seeing it by a programming logic, makes sense. Since a unit on a hill has a square of 5 (decreased if there're forests) and it's probably too difficult to program all the variables (i think no less than 80) you can be right. Live and learn.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Hmmm... in my test I got Settler #2 on T54 and settled Bombay by the silver on T55.

Can you at least find the time to upload a saved game (even an autosave on a turn or two prior) so that we can use it to try and reproduce your moves?

 

[BLubmuz]

Hmmm... in my test I got Settler #2 on T54 and settled Bombay by the silver on T55. And in this test, I actually finished the warrior before starting the worker. I may be able to beat this by one turn if I go stright to the worker after growing to 3. By build in the capital was warrior #2 -> worker #1 -> Settler #2.

I am in the midst of a project, so I can't post the details. Hopefully you can reproduce this with the infor about. And yes, I settled on the lake, which connected my cities immediately as I mentioned in an earlier post.

By the way, I'm not voting for warrior first, but that is what I did in my first test game this morning. But, the voting seems to be leaning toward the warrior first..

I started from the test you posted and now i edited and re-posted after few turns.
There's no MM to do, you just work the 2 corns until size 3.
Then i left the warrior 1 turn to complete. And despite my initial thought, i vote to do so in the game.
After that, again not much to do: you have only 3-yelds-tiles. let's forget commerce, it doesn't matter in building anything. So i worker the 2 corns and a 1F2H tile. but nothing changes, you can put only 6 H+F on the worker, so they are exactly 15 turns without overflow.
Then you start build the 2 warriors and there's some trick.
But maybe you and Dhoom did not built the second warrior?
I did it 'cause it seemed a logical move. Actually, i sent the first to scout and left the 2nd with 1 hammer to complete, in case of need.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

it's my test
seriously: what are the survival chances for that poor warrior if not fortified on a forest?
very low in case of a lion, close to 0 in case of a bear. i did not attack them, i just fortified on the forest.

The Warrior's survival rates are very high. By staying in place, very few Barb units (zero in all of my test games) will spawn near Warrior 1, thanks to Warrior 1, Bear, Lion 1 and Lion 2 doing the fog-busting for us. Remember that the programmers were so lazy, they didn't even do a "check" to see if a unit was a Barb unit or not. Then someone play tested it and argued to keep that behaviour, in order to avoid a randomly-generated "massive Barbarian uprising." The more Barb units there are, the less that can spawn.


If a Lion moves onto FOG BUSTER 1 location, then no other Barb units will spawn for that turn anywhere nearby. The only spot that they can spawn is to the north.

Certainly, by staying in place, we have the liberty to "retreat" to the west, if needed.

The hope is to "wait it out" until closer to Turn 50 or until a Lion appears next to our unit.


By moving onto that Forest, you risk being immediately attacked by 2 Barb Lions, but almost certainly by 1. YOU WILL NOT GET THE FORTIFICATION BONUS THIS WAY! That's the biggest problem. If the Lions roam away or disappear (they should disappear on or just after Turn 50), then Warrior 1 can slowly move towards the Forest to the north.


WHY IN PLACE IS BETTER THAN 1 EAST* FOR FOG-BUSTING, EVEN IF YOU CAN EVADE THE LIONS
The forest 1E will actually fog-bust 4 squares less to the west, greatly increasing the chance for a Barb unit to appear to the west.

If a Lion comes from the east towards you, however, moving to the west is fine, as the Lion himself will continue to fog-bust the east for you. Sweet deal, huh? Using the Barbs against themselves...

* Edited because I am directionally challenged and wrote "WEST" initially.

 

[BLubmuz]

7. Weren't 6 reasons enough reasons? Am I really so unconvincing in my arguments?

What you missed is that i grew to 4 BEFORE start my settler. So i delayed Bombay, but probably anticipated city 3. That needs to be tested. Tomorrow. Not by me. Strike until Thursday.