SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

Early Representation?
Spoiler :
How do we plan to deal with this situation in our game? Should we build farms and focus on an SE game fueled by Representation?
Early Representation would require us to get going on The Pyramids. The tech path should probably be:
Priesthood -> Writing -> The Wheel -> Meditation -> Math

City 4 should be settled by the Stone, to help reduce Maintenance costs. Otherwise, we'll likely never get Math in time.



Or Cottages?
Spoiler :
Or do we need to start thinking about researching Pottery so that we can lay down some much needed cottages?
We'd take the approach of not getting Representation early on (which might not be so early, anyway) and focus on getting Cottages as soon as our tech path will efficiently allow it.

Making our tech path be:
Priesthood -> Writing -> The Wheel -> Meditation -> Fishing (maybe, as knowing it saves 20% of the cost of researching Pottery) -> Pottery -> Math

I'd be more comfortable in settling 5 cities in this second path.

Our capitol's Grassland River squares, plus our planned excess happiness, really will work to our advantage in terms of Cottages, but less so for a pure-Representation-based economy.


The more that I think about it, especially with people claiming that we can afford to wait on building The Pyramids (and if we can't afford to wait, then the odds are probably already stacked against us for building it--an Industrial AI with Stone, for exaxmple), I prefer to slot in Pottery before Math. We have a lot of Grassland squares that are just screaming to have Cottages, and we all know that Granaries are the backbone of a solid empire.

Lacking any further visible Commerce-based Resources, I think that we'll have to get Pottery before Math. Getting Pottery earlier would allow us, in theory, to skip early research of The Wheel, since we could delay our Roading effort, if it weren't for the fact that Pottery REQUIRES us to first research The Wheel. :mischief:



THE ANSWER: Get Pottery before Math and before Alphabet
 
So, which is it? Would you prefer to settle on the southern Coast, picking up several Grassland River squares and some Grassland Hills squares, or settling inland and ignoring the Coast? Because it sound like you are somewhat suggesting both options here, so I can't tell which one you prefer. Maybe you will have no preference until we can see if any Seafood Resource exists off of the southern Coast?
I can bet there's any seafood on the coast. But even in that case, unless there're 2 seafood, i do prefer settle 4 or 5 straight E of Dehli.

If we think this can be a chance, in 3 moves the warrior now inside our borders can arrive on a coastal GL hill. If we want take some risk, the injured warrior can move 1NE, to see what is there. Then we can decide.
I guess next TS will be a lot of stop and go.

The settler can arrive on the riverside GL hill in 3 turns (1 to complete, 2 to move). from there he can move both E or NE.
 
I can bet there's any seafood on the coast. But even in that case, unless there're 2 seafood, i do prefer settle 4 or 5 straight E of Dehli.

If we think this can be a chance, in 3 moves the warrior now inside our borders can arrive on a coastal GL hill. If we want take some risk, the injured warrior can move 1NE, to see what is there. Then we can decide.
I guess next TS will be a lot of stop and go.

The settler can arrive on the riverside GL hill in 3 turns (1 to complete, 2 to move). from there he can move both E or NE.

This stop and go thing has had me thinking that if we can all agree on the best moves for the warriors, what to build next in each city, and what to do with our worker, someone (havr) could more quickly plan a short 3 to 5 turn turn set. We could then stop knowing 99% where we'll settle city 3. This will make any testing we do MUCH more effective. Right now, there are way to many unknowns to make effective use of testing, I think.

Then, havr could write a proper PPP for the remainder of his turnset based on more reliable and accurate testing scenarios.

Thoughts? Is this even possible? We'll have to stop after 3 to 5 turns anyway, so if we plan for it, maybe we can get these turns done sooner which will make future discussion more specific to our situation.

By the way, in our test game, I've monkeyed around with the map by removing a lot of land that could have been useful to another AI and we've had to move France twice. I'm wondering if any dates related to techs learned and/or wonders built will even be remotely accurate using our test save. Just a thought.
 
EASTERN SETTLING LOCATIONS DEBATE: On a Barren River or on a Barren southern Coast?
Spoiler :
I can bet there's any seafood on the coast. But even in that case, unless there're 2 seafood, i do prefer settle 4 or 5 straight E of Dehli.
Okay... so you thought that our land to the west was bad, but you are willing to settle a city with no (visible) Resources in the east. Is it really worth the effort to block Zara from getting such a terrible location?

Wouldn't it be better to let Zara take the bad locations and then get him to vote for us, giving us his population points in a vote, anyway? That way, our Resources would help grow and build our empire, would be tradeable for the required Resources that we need at the end of the game, and would reduce the Resources that Zara has to trade by making him settle Resource-less locations.


In the middle of nowhere on the River
Let's look at what we're saying here.
Settling 4E of Delhi will net us a city with 6 Grassland River squares.

Allow me to make the claim that a city with 2 excess Food is relatively stagnant. When we played a Resourceless-start XOTM game, everyone was later in agreement that the first square that you'd want to work is an Irrigated Grassland River square, and that you'd want to have at least 3 excess Food as much as possible.

That would give us 5 Cottages and 1 Irrigated Grassland at Size 6. After that point, we'd run out of Food to grow sufficiently quickly, or else we'd have to start throwing away Cottages just to be able to feed further growth.

It could also give us 1 Cottage, 3 Irrigated Grassland squares, and 2 Mined Grassland Hills square at Size 6.


In the middle of nowhere on the Coast
If we instead aimed to settle on the Coast, we could get just about as many Irrigated Grassland River squares (4 instead of 6), while being able to work a lot more squares while remaining Food-neutral, just by building a Lighthouse and working the Coast squares for additional Commerce.

We'd equally have the option to Irrigate some of those Grassland River squares in place of Cottages, to be able to work Grassland Hills Mines.

Finally, if we do end up with a Seafood Resource, we'll also be able to work some Plains Cottage squares.

Summary
Knowing nothing of the hidden squares, I would still pick the Coastal location as the better site.



A southern Coastal City works well with the Option e) Cow Site
Spoiler :
If we settle the Coast location, we can STILL grab all of the currently hidden Grassland River squares by settling the Cow + Oasis City at location e). Thus, we wouldn't be "wasting" any potentially hidden Resources on the hidden Grassland River squares.




Which City to settle first?
Spoiler :
Finally, I will claim that if we settle the Cow location, it will discourage Zara from settling to the north or south of the Cow location, as those locations would be "farther" (diagonal squares count as 1.5 in terms of distance calculations) than our Cow city from his capitol.

If we settle either the Coast location in the south or even the River location 4E or 5E, the Cow location and the Wheat location will not be "blocked" by our city. Zara would be free to settle by those Resources and we stand to lose one or both of them.

Finally, a centrally-located Cow city would help to fog-bust the north and south with its expanding borders, making it easier to fog-bust for a Wheat City and a southern City (Coast or River, whichever, it won't matter).


ANSWER: THE COW SITE!


Wounded Explorer = Dead Explorer... is the info gained worth the unit's death?
Spoiler :
If we want take some risk, the injured warrior can move 1NE, to see what is there.
I think that moving a wounded unit is the same as saying it is already dead. Plan for it to die after 2 moves. If the information learned in two moves is worth its death, then we can consider it. If you do not believe this information is more important than keeping the Warrior alive, then I would recommend not scouting with the wounded unit at all.

Also, 1NE is in Zara's borders, and neither of us knows Writing in order to get Open Borders. 1N would make sense, as it would be relatively low-risk, but I will still claim that we should consider a wounded unit as "dead" if we start exploring with it.



Warrior 5 Movement
Spoiler :
If we think this can be a chance, in 3 moves the warrior now inside our borders can arrive on a coastal GL hill.
While your statement is true, there is more to the picture involved. We would actually have to move this Warrior for 4 turns, getting to the easternmost Grassland Hills square, in order to see which of those Grassland Hills squares locations is better to settle on.

Only then (after 4 moves) would we see if there is a Seafood Resource on the southern Coast. If not, then the city will be marginal no matter where we settle it. If so, while the city might be an okay location, settling it won't be blocking Zara one single bit.



Sending Settler 3 east TAKES FOREVER--It is better to go north first
Spoiler :
The settler can arrive on the riverside GL hill in 3 turns (1 to complete, 2 to move). from there he can move both E or NE.
You mean the Grassland Hills Forest River square to the E + E of the capitol, right? Because I don't see any flatland that can allow the Settler to efficiently move 2 squares per turn--just "heavy movement cost land" that requires the Settler to move only 1 square per turn.

Or did you mean the Grassland Hills Forest River square to the N + N + N of the Ice Silver? If yes, then getting there with the Settler will actually take an extra turn (4 turns total).

Only by going north can we gain efficiency in the Settler's movements; in fact, by going north with the Settler, we gain enough movement efficiency to make settling the Option d) and Option e) locations take just as long to arrive at by "trudging through the difficult-to-move-through" terrain to the east of our capitol as it would take to go first north and then east.
 
I will prepare the half-TS PPP (3-5 turns) tomorrow. Too late to do it today.

Some thoughts on the issues discussed:

1) City 4 should not be settled before the Oracle. As it is we are getting Oracle at T91 or even T92... OUR STRATEGY COMPLETELY FAILS IF WE MISS THE ORACLE! So we cannot take any risks.

2) Are we hooked up on Pyramids? We are going to go to great lengths to get it:
a) Marblton location looks better than Stonyville's. But for 'Mids we need to settle Stonyville first. Remember that City4 settle is probably going to be delays, so many resources are going to be missed.
b) changing our tech route
c) building an ultra expensive WW.

And for what? SE is not really in our plans, or is it? We are not going to war-maniacs, so SE is not that useful for us, right?

I still think we should skip the Pyramids and go for Great Library or Pathenon. They come in later, and we can develop our cities before jumping on a new WW. Our poor citizens will be exhausted from building the Oracle :lol:
 
Settler 3 -> Settler 4 or Worker 2?
Spoiler :
1) City 4 should not be settled before the Oracle. As it is we are getting Oracle at T91 or even T92... OUR STRATEGY COMPLETELY FAILS IF WE MISS THE ORACLE! So we cannot take any risks.
A very short test game demonstrates that building a Worker immediately after the Settler can be complete the turn after we learn Priesthood, or can be complete on the turn that we learn Priesthood if we chop into the Worker and use the remaining overflow in The Oracle.

Building a Settler for City 4 now definitely delays The Oracle, as havr is saying.

ANSWER: Settler 3 -> Worker 2


Must we go for The Pyramids?
Spoiler :
2) Are we hooked up on Pyramids?
No, we aren't completely hooked on building The Pyramids, but building it is a great way to improve our tech pace and to better leverage our Spiritual Trait.

The alternative of REXing a lot with our excess production before getting Currency might grind our empire to a halt.

ANSWER: No, we don't HAVE to get them. However, they are so great that we should really try to get them if we can!


Clams + Marble, while a nice location, and is one that we will settle eventually anyway, costs a lot of Maintenance now
Spoiler :
a) Marblton location looks better than Stonyville's.
The Clams + Marble location has a much higher Maintenance cost, especially after we switch to Organized Religion. I'm not sure that our empire can handle the cost right now (but feel free to prove me wrong in a test game).

I do see us eventually settling both cities, so I'd prefer to settle the one that is closer to our capitol first, since neither city acts as a "blocking city" for an AI.

Note that we can still settle the Stone City and target The Hanging Gardens and/or Moai Statues with the Stone. We are not locked into building The Pyramids just because we settled the Stone site.

THE RESULT: Get The Stone City before The Marble City (but the Stone City can also grab Marble).


Stone = Great Engineer
Spoiler :
I still think we should skip the Pyramids and go for Great Library or Pathenon. They come in later, and we can develop our cities before jumping on a new WW. Our poor citizens will be exhausted from building the Oracle :lol:
That opinion is a valid one.

I would personally like to hedge our bets and aim to have the Stone available and Forests pre-chopped, so that if we do miss The Pyramids, we can get another Great-Engineer-producing Wonder, The Hanging Gardens, at about the same time that we would have completed The Pyramids, had The Pyramids not already been built.

There is a risk of a few turns where we've partially chopped The Pyramids and someone else builds it, before our pre-chopped Forests can be fully chopped. The Failure Gold from Mathematics-enabled, Organized-Religion-enabled, plus Stone-enabled chops would be a considerable consolation prize, don't you think? Plus, we'd still have some unchopped Forests to get The Hanging Gardens in short order.

We do want at least ONE Great-Engineer-producing Wonder, right? We'd rather it not be the Hagia Sophia, right? ;)

THE RESULT: If we don't get The Pyramids, we should be able to get The Hanging Gardens for our Great Engineer instead.


Test Game for Copper Now vs Chopping Now
Spoiler :
We DO need to perform a longer test game, though, to see if mining the Copper immediately will be worth delaying starting The Oracle by 1 turn (while completing Worker 2), such that we won't grow as fast (we can work the Copper in favour of the Irrigated Grassland River square) while at the same time, being able to produce 5 Hammers per turn from the Copper square (4 + 1 from Organized Religion).

The tradeoff of an additional Forest chop, plus the chance to start on The Oracle 1 turn sooner, should be weighed in the balance.

THE RESULT: Copper now, chop afterwards.
 
Which City to settle first?
Finally, I will claim that if we settle the Cow location, it will discourage Zara from settling to the north or south of the Cow location, as those locations would be "farther" (diagonal squares count as 1.5 in terms of distance calculations) than our Cow city from his capitol.

If we settle either the Coast location in the south or even the River location 4E or 5E, the Cow location and the Wheat location will not be "blocked" by our city. Zara would be free to settle by those Resources and we stand to lose one or both of them.

Finally, a centrally-located Cow city would help to fog-bust the north and south with its expanding borders, making it easier to fog-bust for a Wheat City and a southern City (Coast or River, whichever, it won't matter).

I agree that we should settle a cow city next for all of the reasons mentioned above and in Dhoom's post. In addition, although it's very likely that due east holds a hidden strategic resource (e.g. horses, iron, coal, oil, etc.), as long as it doesn't contain horses (assuming Zara knows AH already), Zara is unlikely to settle there right away anyway. Of course if the ocean contains a bunch of sea food, all bets are off.
 
Partial Turnsets and where to upload them
Spoiler :
One Short Straw uploaded a short turnset, which allows other teams to more accurately judge what happened in that time period.

Therefore, for havr's turnset, I would recommend that he only upload our saved game to the thread, not to the upload form, for his partial turnsets, unless we want to risk giving away more info than we need to. Just be sure to make it absolutely clear which saved game you are uploading (the real game, not a test game) and the most paranoid amongst us should be appeased. Right?

We also have the "TEST GAME" signs to tell us when we are and aren't using a Test Game.

For example, during their last 10 turns of a turnset, One Short Straw kept a constant Power level, lost some Score, and greatly increased their Cultural output.

Their Cultural output has a steeper increase than the previous turnset, which could indicate that they are pursuing a similar religious-chasing strategy as ours.

It could also mean that they learned Code of Laws from The Oracle near the end of their previous turnset, which gave them a bit of a Cultural output increase, while they saw the full output of this increase in their last 10-turn turnset, where they had The Oracle and the extra Culture from Confucianism for the entire turnset, instead of just for part of the turnset.

THE ANSWER: It is preferred that they don't get uploaded at all, but they'd be better placed in our thread than uploaded to the server.
 
Partial Turnsets and where to upload them
One Short Straw uploaded a short turnset, which allows other teams to more accurately judge what happened in that time period.

Therefore, for havr's turnset, I would recommend that he only upload our saved game to the thread, not to the upload form, for his partial turnsets, unless we want to risk giving away more info than we need to. Just be sure to make it absolutely clear which saved game you are uploading (the real game, not a test game) and the most paranoid amongst us should be appeased. Right?

I think this is risky. It would be way too easy to accidentaly download the real save and play it as a test... a complete disaster, right? If we're that worried about it, havr could just post screen shots and not upload the save. Although, not much will happen score, culture or power wise in the next 3 to 5 turns, so I'm not sure how much information the other teams could glean from this...

Finally, I think all "official" saves must be uploaded to the results page, but I'm not sure about that. I'm an SGOTM virgin... :blush:

EDIT: From the maintenance thread:

7. Saves must be transferred by uploading to the >>SUBMISSIONS PAGE<< and downloading through the >>RESULTS PAGE<< This enables statistics to be collated and presented to the world, and it offers some protection for your game.​
 
Why we should not Upload Partial Turnsets to the Server
Spoiler :
If we're that worried about it, havr could just post screen shots and not upload the save.
If you think that you'll be able to accurately recreate the Test Game this way, then that's an acceptable compromise to me.


Although, not much will happen score, culture or power wise in the next 3 to 5 turns, so I'm not sure how much information the other teams could glean from this...
Well, it would at a minimum, give them an accurate picture of how quickly our Cultural rate is climbing, since, as you say, nothing else of note would happen during that turnset.


Finally, I think all "official" saves must be uploaded to the results page, but I'm not sure about that.
The text that you quoted really isn't very specific, so I would surmise that the rules aren't very strict on expected behaviour. It certainly doesn't deal with the case where we're just pausing during a player's turnset to get feedback from the team and to possibly run a few test game scenarios.



Havr, please capture Espionage values as part of your turnset
Spoiler :
After we do one turn we should be able to see by how much the gap grows. We can then figure out how many turns ago he found that other emperor. This will give us a clue if this is a work-boat or a far away empire.

For example, if he is assigning 2 points per turn to us it means that he found out the other guy 13 turns ago. Now, Zara is pretty close so if that other guy should have gotten to us by now...

This info would be good to capture and report back to us, as part of your PPP's initial turns.
 
If you think that you'll be able to accurately recreate the Test Game this way, then that's an acceptable compromise to me.

In addition to screen shots, I would need:

1. Number of beakers in Priesthood.
2. Food in the basket and hammers invested in partial units in each city.
3. Hit points left in any wounded units.

This should be enough for me to create an accurate test game...

I would feel better about doing this than posting our official save in our thread. We'd be setting ourselves up for a major screw up, in my opinion.
 
Forest Chopping Priorities--The NITTY, GRITTY DETAILS
Spoiler :
Allow me to repost one of BLubmuz' screenshots here, to make my text easier to understand:
Spoiler The Area Around Delhi :
attachment.php


When setting up a "path" for a Fast Worker to pre-chop or straight chop Forests, sometimes you will find that two Forests are equally adjacent to the current square, so you can pick between them.

So, which should you choose?

Well, a Forest can grow horizontally or vertically into a non-Forested square. That non-Forested square has to be of a type that can grow a Forest (so a Desert or a coast won't work), not have a Resource on it (except for a couple of exceptions, such as a Deer or a Fur), not have an improvement on it, and not already have a Jungle on it. Let's call such a non-Forested square that can actually get a Forest a "Forest Eligible" square.

The more horizontally and vertically surrounding squares that have a Forest surrounding a Forest Eligible square, the greater the chance of a Forest growing in the Forest Eligible square.


So, the best Forest to chop is one that has Forested squares on 4 sides of it. Such a square is "wasting regrowth potential," as none of the surrounding squares can currently receive a "new" Forest until the old Forest is chopped down, while the square that has 4 Forests around it also can't receive a "new" Forest.


Since we want to maximize our chances of Forest regrowth, the more Forest squares that we chop which could potentially "spread" a Forest, the less chances for spreading we will end up with.


So, there needs to be a balance between selective chopping (chopping Forests that are likely to regrow) and clear-cutting.


Other squares to target early on are those that will hardly ever see any chance of Forest regrowth and will hardly help horizontally or vertically adjacent squares to regrow. For example, a square that has a city and 3 improved Resources surrounding it will never regrow, nor will it help any other Forests to regrow. Such a square is our 1S of Delhi Grassland Forest River square.

Such a square is not benefiting us at all by being a Forest, except for the long-term potential to use it for Hammers or 1/2 of a Healthiness point. But, if we're planning on chopping most Forests eventually, we might as well chop one now that "doesn't encourage Forest regrowth" before chopping one that might spread to a nearby square.


Here's another example: the Grassland Forest River to the NE of Delhi is a good one to chop. It is surrounded (horizontally and vertically) by 3 Forests and 1 Resource, meaning that it can't spread anywhere. Once it is chopped, there are 3 squares that could spread a Forest back onto it.


Here's yet another example: The Grassland Forest River square to the SE + S of Delhi is not a great Forest to chop, as no Forest exists to regrow there, while two squares (the Tundra Hills square 1E of it and the Grassland 1S of it) can get a Forest spreading from this square.


Here's another example, that may appear to contradict a previous example: a square that is surrounded by 4 Forests might be a good square NOT to chop. Instead, chop all of the surrounding Forests and hope that one of those squares gets a Forest to spread back onto it. Here's a location that might apply: W + W of our capitol. While chopping the square W + W of our capitol would have the greatest chance of regrowth, 3 of the surrounding Forests can ONLY grow in 1 direction--back onto the W + W of the capitol square (and only after that W + W of the capitol square is chopped). The only "surrounding" square that can grow elsewhere is the one to the north of the W + W of the capitol square, as that Forest can also spread 1N of itself (i.e. spread to the square that is 1NW of the Copper). By chopping this centre square instead of the surrounding squares, the Forests that we "leave" will have a total of 5 "regrowth possibilities."

For this example, if we instead chopped all of the surrounding squares, we'd end up with 7 "regrowth possibilities": W + W -> 1E, W + W -> 1S, W + W -> 1W (and two other Forests would also potentially regrow said Forest), and W + W -> 1N (and one other Forest would also potentially regrow said Forest). By just chopping the W + W square, we'd only be have 5 regrowth possibilities, while only being able to chop 1 of said Forests, as opposed to getting 2 extra regrowth possibilities PLUS 4 chops out of the bargain!

This example is SLIGHTLY skewed, because the Forest 1S of the W + W square should actually be saved to help chop Moai Statues in Silverado, but the overall idea still holds, since we'd still have 6 regrowth possibilities (as opposed of 5 regrowth possibilities from chopping the W + W square) while being able to chop 3 Forests in the bargain (as opposed to just 1 chop).


Why am I telling you all of this stuff?
Well, if you've read this far, you're interested in learning. You probably also like thinking about math problems. :lol: ;) But really, it's so that we can come up with a chopping plan that meshes together well, instead of just chopping hap-hazardly without considering the impact that the current chop will have in dictating where the next chop should occur.
 
Chopping Priorities
...

Well, if you've read this far, you're interested in learning. You probably also like thinking about math problems. :lol: ;) But really, it's so that we can come up with a chopping plan that meshes together well, instead of just chopping hap-hazardly without considering the impact that the current chop will have in dictating where the next chop should occur.

Thanks for the chopping lesson. I think our team should take all of this into consideration. If you plan on chopping a forest during your turn set, please indicate which one(s) in your PPP.

Or, better yet, Dhoomstriker could do all of the thinking for us and simply number the squares in order of chopping priority. Then, when havr first opens the save, he could put signs on each forest tile numbered 1 through x so that we all know what to chop during our turn and in what order.

I would like to add that there may be a case where we want to chop a certain forest because we want to improve the underlying tile (likely a river-side cottage or farm). We also have to think about worker movement through the forests so that no worker turns are lost.

We should also avoid these possible regrowth squares with our warrior movements as Dhoomstriker has mentioned before multiple times. it likely has a small impact, but every little bit helps.

Note that we've already had 2 forests regrow (1 during my turnset and 1 during BLubmuz'). So if done right, we could be regrowing forests where we want them.

It's quite a complicated picture once you add all of the variables. But armed with this knowledge, we should all be better at selecting which forests to chop first and which ones to keep for later.
 
Pacifying those who are worried about Great Prophet "pollution" from The Oracle in the Capitol

Spoiler :
Take a look at the tech preferences for Great Prophets in BTS:
Spoiler Great Prophet Tech Preferences in BTS :
Great Prophet:

Meditation
Polytheism
Priesthood
Monotheism
Theology
Divine Right
Mysticism
Masonry (Warlords patch & BTS)
Code of Laws
Civil Service
Monarchy
Literature
Music
Writing
Philosophy
Printing Press
Drama
Aesthetics (BTS)
Alphabet
Paper
Education
Liberalism
Calendar
Animal Husbandry
Construction
Future Tech


Now, let's analyze the list a bit, checkmarking those techs that we have researched and indicating which we will research soon (or Oracle or Lightbulb).

Meditation = soon
Polytheism = checkmark
Priesthood = checkmark
Monotheism = checkmark
Theology = Lightbulb
Divine Right = We won't have the Monarchy pre-requisite, so this tech will be skipped
Mysticism = checkmark
Masonry (Warlords patch & BTS) = checkmark
Code of Laws = The Oracle
Civil Service = OUR SECOND GREAT PROPHET!
Monarchy = We won't research this tech for a while

So, if we end up with a second Great Prophet, we can grab Civil Service with him! As long as we self-tech Math, which is already in our plan, Civil Service will be the next tech to Lighbulb, after Theology.

Of course, we'd rather get a Great Scientist for Philosophy as our 2nd Great Person (at least that was our plan), but it is nice that a contingency plan exists--that of Lightbulbing most of Civil Service and manually researching Philosophy using Bureaucracy (or else trying yet again for a Great Scientist for Philosophy from our 3rd Great Person).
 
...
Divine Right = We won't have the Monarchy pre-requisite, so this tech will be skipped

Is this only if we get the Pyramids? Otherwise, we surely want Monarchy at some point. Or are you saying that point is after we bulb Philosophy, by which stage the pollution matters not so much?

I'm not overly concerned about GPP pollution of any sort, as we need to have 4 unused great people at the end of the game anyway (not to mention the usual option to use an unwanted great person for a golden age at some point). Although if we're relying on one for something then of course that can be a problem.
 
Wouldn't building a shrine be a better idea for the 2nd GPro (if we get him).

Suppose we are alone on the continent. Soon enough there will be, say, 10 cities there. The +10 gold can be useful early to keep our research going.
 
OK, enough talking. Time for a test game.

I ran a test where I mined the copper first and switched a citizen from the plains hill to the copper as soon as it was done, speeding up the growth of the city. I only had to put two chops into the Oracle since the limiting factor was definitely researching Writing, not building the Oracle. Therefore, I think mining the copper before chopping with worker 1 makes the most sense. I did chop the forest on the riverside grassland hill 2E of the capital. This gave 1F 3H 1C once both workers had completed the mine. It also gave me exactly 12 base hammers (a multiple of 4) and 15 hammers with the OR bonus.

The capital built settler 3, worker 2 (T80), Oracle (T93). Both workers were then free to either pre-chop or start improving city 3 on about T90.

I settled city 3 between the three peaks (location e from Dhoomstriker's post IIRC). My gpt went from -3 to -7 at 100% research. So, with binary research it was something like 2 turns at 0% followed by 5 turns at 100%. I did not go for any fail gold this time. I learned Writing on T93, the same turn I finished the Oracle.

I found a way to spawn bust the entire peninsula and all of the land north of Delhi and north of city 3. We also had a warrior between us and Zara and another one near the wheat. This effectively spawn busted the entire continent other than any barbs that could have spawned east of Zara.

Silverado built two warriors and is now building worker 3. City 3 built a warrior and is now building a settler, which could probably be completed in about 10 turns with 2 chops. Or, that settler could be built in the capital, but I think the capital needs a temple and possibly a library first, so chopping a settler in city 3 could make sense.

Now the bad news: Louis learned CoL on T84, 9 turns before we would have gotten it. Again, we've messed around so much with the French that we can't really take what they accomplish as reality. I also noticed in WB that France switched from a partial worker to the Oracle. He would have beaten us because I gave him marble, but he switched back to the worker again... :crazyeye:

We should all run a few tests with all of the religious zealots + Zara in the game to find out about when CoL is typically learned. This would be a better indication.

By the way, I forgot to put copper in the test save. I will upload a new one to the old post now!!
 
I'm not overly concerned about GPP pollution of any sort, as we need to have 4 unused great people at the end of the game anyway (not to mention the usual option to use an unwanted great person for a golden age at some point). Although if we're relying on one for something then of course that can be a problem.

I see your point. But, in a perfect world, the 4 great people we use at the end of the game will be the last 4 we generate. This would be cutting it a bit close, but I'm talking about an ideal world here. Therefore, we should strive to get the flavor of great person we want when we want them and use them right away. This allows us to to get the greatest benefit out of each great person without having to carry them along for the ride while they eat away 1 gold per turn from our treasury.
 
Wouldn't building a shrine be a better idea for the 2nd GPro (if we get him).

Suppose we are alone on the continent. Soon enough there will be, say, 10 cities there. The +10 gold can be useful early to keep our research going.

I'm dubious about the benefit of a shrine, particularly a shrine this early in the game. We won't have a single religion in 10 cities for quite some time (i.e. > 100 turns). But to follow your example, when we do have 10 cities, the shrine can generate 1000 gold in 100 turns (more if we have any gold multiplying buildings). A great prophet could get us about 1000 beakers into a tech immediately. Depending on the tech in question and how much we need it, the decision to build a shrine is not automatic. Plus, a shrine generates even more Great Prophet points, possibly giving us yet another unwanted GPro...
 
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