SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Dhoomstriker]

Havr: Write the PPP yourself, if you'd prefer

Spoiler :

I feel comfortable with you executing the PPP today with the small change that Dhoomstriker mentioned about leaving warriors 1 and 2 in the west in their current locations (unfortified and hitting space each turn).

Havr, you're also free to re-write my PPP and make it more "your own." I have no particular tie to the way that I wrote the PPP. I was simply trying to gather all of the relevant info in the right place, as per your request.

If you leave details out about unit movement or something else that we feel is important enough, we'll point them out.

If you leave details out about things like playing style, such as checking the Yields of squares, we'll just trust that you understood the info and will do it without having to explain to us that you will do it. We'll trust you to follow-through, either by you asking questions if you don't understand what is being suggested or else you adapting these playing style suggestions to match your own playing style. There are other ways of ensuring that a city is working all of the right squares than by looking at Yields, for example, but I just tried to share what I thought was a good way of doing so. You're free to pick your own way of accomplishing the same task, as long as you still get the same job done.

Alternatively, just go with what I've written and write your own PPP for the rest of your turnset, when it comes time to do so. Whatever works for you, mate.

 

[BLubmuz]

Can others please give havr the approval to play the next few turns per Dhoom's very detailed PPP? I'd like to see what's in the fog so that we can get this game moving again!

It's OK to me, just update it with the injured warrior moving SE, if we agree the (small) risk is worth.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

BLubmuz has a Crush on Me--Don't Tell his Wife!

Spoiler :

If you could be a bit more specific (and constructive), I think Dhoomstriker will find ways to impart his knowledge and experience without being like your wife.

While your point is valid, I am also taking what he said as a complement.

He married her, after all. Presumably he loves her and treats her with respect.

I can handle taking on that role (being loved and respected by BLubmuz).

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Cultural Game Exception Cases: When might you not want to build every single Cathedral possible?

Spoiler :

Not clear. Why not build all the possible cathedrals?

Reason 1: A Legendary City (usually your capitol, if it has built a couple of more Wonders than the other Legendary Cities) is going to exceed the culture required before the other two cities. I've sometimes had my capitol (yes, you could call it due to bad planning) have close to DOUBLE the required culture in it before the other Cities went Legendary. Clearly, if I have 3 Cathedrals in a city that will go Legendary in 20 turns, while my other 2 Legendary Cities will not go Legendary for another 100 turns, I can build other things (such as Missionaries, Military, etc) in the Legendary City that will go Legendary in about 20 turns. Makes sense, right?

Reason 2: You might end the game sooner if you focus on building Cathedrals before Temples in at least one of your Legendary Cities. In a City with only 8 base Hammers, even with a Spiritual Civ and with Organized Religion, that's 54 base Hammers (for the Temple, assuming optimal usage of Organized Religion--it can be more base Hammers if you're not generating even multiples of 4 Hammers per turn). 54 / 8 = 6.75 turns. So, that'll be 7 turns invested on building a Temple that could have been spent on building a Cathedral that much sooner.

If your City is producing 50 base Culture and has multipliers of 100% (from the Free Speech Civic) + 150% (from 3 Cathedrals), you are making 100% (the base amount) + 100% (from Free Speech) + 150% (from Cathedrals) = 350% cultural output.
50 * 350% = 175 Culture.

One more Temple would give you: 1 * 350% = 3.5 more Culture per turn.

One more Cathedral would give you 50 * 50% = 25 more Culture per turn.


Although you can build multiple Temples in the same amount of time that it takes to build a Cathedral, you can't build infinite Temples. So, in this example, you'd want to race to getting that Cathedral complete before the Temple, in order to get maximium benefit from it as soon as possible.


AS A RESULT of the above, you might not HAVE ENOUGH Temples of a given religion in order to be able to build all of a Religion's Cathedrals, at least not until near the end of the game. Building 12 cities (just so that you can put 9 Temples in the non-Legendary Cities) is not seen as an efficient compromise, as the added Maintenance costs weigh heavily against your ability to maintain a 100% Cultural Rate.


Sure, if you CAN build all Cathedrals, do so. But you asked WHY you might be in a situation NOT to build them all. I gave you a couple of examples. More examples exist.

A Diplo Game gets more Economic Buildings than a Cultural Game does

Spoiler :

I think that when all our cities have:
- Library
- Market or Grocer
- CH
we're in great shape.

That sounds like a Diplo game. ;0
Cultural -> <- Diplo taking over

Our Legendary Cities will build a Library for certain, as Libraries generate culture and are nice to have for their Science boost, but the other buildings that you mentioned will have to be weighed against other factors--if Music is not in and our Economy has tanked, then Markets or Courthouses (or both) would be good to get.

Otherwise, with Music under our belts, we'll probably be too busy building Cathedrals to stop to build these buildings.

We are unlikely to build a Grocer in our Legendary Cities unless they need the excess Health, so, probably not until they are around Size 14 or so. A Harbour might even come first, depending upon which Grocer-related Resources we are able to trade for.

 

[Mitchum]

It's OK to me, just update it with the injured warrior moving SE, if we agree the (small) risk is worth.

We plan to wait to settle city 3 for several turns. Are we all agreed on that?

If so, what is the rush of exploring the coast right now? Is it worth the risk? Would it change where we plan to settle? Would it change the turn we plan to settle?

If we plan on settling say in 8 to 10 turns (depending on what we see near the peaks and if we see Zara's settler heading our way), can't the injured warrior heal a turn or five first and then start exploring? If we move him south too soon, a barb may spawn in one of the tiles he's currently spawn busting.

Maybe a picture of where the wouned warrior and the warrior exploring north east would show that no holes would open up in our spawn busting. I'm not sure. But I do know that the injured warrior is in a great place right now to spawn bust the entire area.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Possible Movement Suggestion for the Wounded Warrior 4--A Riskier Plan than Mithchum's Plan, which can be found below this message

Spoiler :

It's OK to me, just update it with the injured warrior moving SE, if we agree the (small) risk is worth.

What do you want to see? If the answer is the Coast to the south, and if you are agreed that WARRIOR 4 IS OFFICIALLY CONSIDERED TO BE DEAD by moving him, then wouldn't it be better to move him:
1 SW Grass River
1 SE Grass Hills

That square would uncover the Tundra to the east and the Coast and Ocean to the south:

Spoiler Suicide--Charging to Warrior 4's Death :

At least that way, you'd be guaranteed to learn something. If we just moved immediately 1SE, we might die and still wouldn't see what Resources are just off of the Coast, if any.


Now, I'm not advocating making this movement now, I'm just trying to make your argument stronger.

I think that we can make this movement after 5 turns, when the Warrior is healed up, without affecting our Settling locations at all.

I'd still take a Seafood-less Coastal location over a Resource-less River location that only grabs 2 more Grassland River squares in the bargain, losing at least 6 Coast squares (if not more) in exchange.


EDIT from here and below: Another point: moving onto the Grassland Hills square after 2 moves would only risk death from a Barbarian at one square (the square 1E of the Grassland Hills square).

Further, since we are going to "find out" what's to the east after 3 turns, we technically could leave Warrior 4 in place for 1 turn, skipping his turn, to help passively fog-bust for new Barbs in the south. Then, on Turn 74, he could make the SW move and on Turn 75 make the SE move.

That's about the safest way that I can think to accomplish your goal of scouting the south at the same time as Warrior 5 scouts the east.

I'm still not really in favour of doing so, but I admit that the risk of encountering a Barb using this approach is a very small risk. I'd still consider the Warrior to be dead, though, as he wouldn't survive a fight at 1.2 Health, even being positioned on a Hills square.

 

[Mitchum]

Maybe a picture of where the wouned warrior and the warrior exploring north east would show that no holes would open up in our spawn busting. I'm not sure. But I do know that the injured warrior is in a great place right now to spawn bust the entire area.

OK, I checked myself to see if I could support BLubmuz. I was surprised to find out that I can!

By looking at the attached image, the warrior could move 1 SW (back toward our capital) and then 1S with NO risk of meeting a barb unless one appears on the hill 2S of the warrior after the first turn. As you said, our shared cultural borders should prevent a barb from spawning in the mean time. The only risk could be the tile 1E of the peak (N-NW fo the warrior), but our exploring warrior will be protecting that tile until he moves off further north.

If we want to move the warrior to the hill 2S instead, there is a larger risk that there could be a barb on the hidden tundra tile S-SE.



EDIT: Another cross post with Dhoomstriker...

 

[havr]

OK, can we be a bit more constructive here? It appears that you are sarcastically throwing an insult Dhoomstriker's way. What specifically should he do differently? Should his posts be shorter? Should he put an "Executive Summary" or "Conclusion" in his posts so that those not interested in the details can just read that (I personally like the details so would not want them to disappear)? Should he not try to teach us how forests grow or how to avoid barbs?

If you could be a bit more specific (and constructive), I think Dhoomstriker will find ways to impart his knowledge and experience without being like your wife.

My wife is a teacher too.

Let me be more to the point.

Yes, Dhoom is telling us how a top (and perfectionist) player think about every single move. The truth is I admire him. The depth of how gets into things is amazing. The angles that he sees them is amazing too. He puts I huge amount of knowledge and think everything over hours, just for a few turns. It is quite amazing.

That said, I must state that in no way can I follow him. How can I? He is writing scrolls. He is spending hours on thinking every angle. I just don't have the capcity to do that. As it is I am struggling with my free time to just to keep up with the posts, which are 90% from Dhoom... How forests grow, and brab walk and what it means for a cultural game crazyeye is fascinating but is something I will want to know if I were pursuing a PhD in Civ4. But I am not (in Civ4, just pursuing it in something else).

When I asked the focused question ("where exactly do we want to explore") I was trying to clear the clutter, because with all the debris it is hard to follow. I don't think that the appropriate response was a script for a mechanical robot.

I may be the most vocal in expressing my frustration. I know that you Mitchum are quite happy, but I do think that Blambuz and UT did express some frustration in the past.(IF I AM WRONG PLEASE CORRECT ME AND I WILL BE SILENT FROM HERE ON). Tata voted with his legs.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

BLubmuz and Girls--To Kiss or not to Kiss

Spoiler :

Sure we have to refer to you as a "he", Dhoom?

If the question is "Can you call me a girl?" then I think that the answer is the same as the answer to the question: "Would you like to kiss me?"

When i am i post something like this:

Spoiler :

aaaaAAAAAAAAArrrGHHHHHhhhhhhhh​

I bet it felt really good to write that!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

A Request for Suggestions to Improve our Communication

Spoiler :

I don't think that the appropriate response was a script for a mechanical robot.

Havr, you're also free to re-write my PPP and make it more "your own." I have no particular tie to the way that I wrote the PPP. I was simply trying to gather all of the relevant info in the right place, as per your request.

As per the above, go nuts!

I may be the most vocal in expressing my frustration.

I am quite open to suggestions for changing or improving our communication, as well as other issues. Fire away with your suggestions!

 

[Mitchum]

How forests grow, and brab walk and what it means for a cultural game crazyeye is fascinating but is something I will want to know if I were pursuing a PhD in Civ4. But I am not (in Civ4, just pursuing it in something else).

In order to do well in this game and place in the top three, I think we will need to do one of two things. We need to learn from each other, which will require reading through long posts and debating back and forth until we all have a common understanding. Then we'll all know what we're doing and why. Or, we can just do what the better players on the team tell us what to do without knowing why? I prefer the first option.

If we don't want to do the best we can and we don't want the better players telling us what to do, then your suggestion of not learning some game mechanics and how they apply to cultural vs. diplo games makes more sense.

It all depends on what we want to get out of the game.

When I asked the focused question ("where exactly do we want to explore") I was trying to clear the clutter, because with all the debris it is hard to follow. I don't think that the appropriate response was a script for a mechanical robot.

Agreed. I think Dhoomstriker misread your question and provided the detail he would provide had he been writing the PPP.

I may be the most vocal in expressing my frustration. I know that you Mitchum are quite happy, but I do think that Blambuz and UT did express some frustration in the past.(IF I AM WRONG PLEASE CORRECT ME AND I WILL BE SILENT FROM HERE ON). Tata voted with his legs.

Thanks for expressing your feelings. How would you propose we move forward? What are your goals out of this game?

I think BLubmuz, Dhoomstriker and I have about the same number of posts. Dhoomstriker has more words, but not more posts. He is trying to be as clear as possible I think. Would having a summary at the end of each post or an executive summary at the beginning help?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Wounded Warrior 4 will explore southward, but only to 100%-safe squares

Spoiler :

OK, I checked myself to see if I could support BLubmuz. I was surprised to find out that I can!

And in a way that is much better than what I suggested!

1S with NO risk of meeting a barb unless one appears on the hill 2S of the warrior after the first turn.

Even if a Barb appeared on the Grassland Hills square that you mention, we wouldn't have to continue moving south, risking death. We could instead retreat from that Barb unit, right? Really, your idea offers no immediate risk to our Warrior.


So, since that's what BLubz wanted to do, I say we should go for it.


I'll update the PPP (although feel free to object, anyone). I'd actually prefer if havr updated his version of the PPP, but until I hear from him that he's going to do so, I guess I am on the hook for that task.

 

[havr]

OK, maybe there maybe mainly a difference of goals.

Let me state this clearly:
- While I would very much like to finish first, or in the first three, this is not my first goal.
- While I would very much like to learn tons of data and move light years ahead in my playing skills, this is not my first or second goal.

What is my first goal?
I would like to have fun. This is leisure. I spend tons of neuron energy in my job. When I get to play at 23:00 in the evening (or read a post or two while taking a small break at work) I don't like the feeling of drowning in an ocean (of words/posts/info/data/decisions/arguments pick whatever you want). Sorry, don't have nor the energy nor the will to float.

OK, there might be a big mismatch between me and the rest of the team. But I think it will be good to know that. Lets put things on the table.

So, can I play the miserable 3 turns and then we can see how to progress?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Havr: Play the PPP!

Spoiler :

So, can I play the miserable 3 turns and then we can see how to progress?

I don't see why not.

Unclethrill (and I think Irgy, too) has been online since the PPP was posted and didn't seem to have any issues with it.

BLubz only had 1 issue, that of wanting to explore a bit more to the south. We're now doing that, so he should be happy with what's there.

Mitchum seemed happy with what's there.

You seem content to play it out.

I'm fine with you going forward.

There's one sticky point as to what to do with Warrior 3 on Turn 74, depending upon what the Barb Warrior does, but otherwise, the turns should be relatively straight-forward.

 

[havr]

OK, will play in a couple of hours. Unless someone pulls the breaks and stops me before that.

(I will not be able to give it 100% that is needed while my wife is still awake).

 

[BLubmuz]

go on, i'm curious.

did i told you i'm very curious? i can't do nothing about it, it's my nature.

 

[Mitchum]

So, can I play the miserable 3 turns and then we can see how to progress?

I hope you don't really feel that the next three turns will be miserable. How we got to the details of the three turns may have felt miserable, but I think the turns will be exciting. Who doesn't like exploring the unknown while dodging a potential barb here or there? Go get 'em, Sir Columbus!!

 

[Mitchum]

OK, there might be a big mismatch between me and the rest of the team. But I think it will be good to know that. Lets put things on the table.

Thanks for putting it on the table. That's the best way to deal with it.

I suggest that Dhoomstriker continue to write scrolls for the sadistic folks like myself. I further suggest that he put the bulk of his messages in a spoiler and spend an extra 5 minutes to write a brief summary. If you're willing to accept his summary as fact, there is no need to open the spoiler. If you want to debate the issue, then you'll be forced to open the spoiler to understand how he came to the conclusion. The choice would be yours.

Sound good or is this still too much?

 

[unclethrill]

Thanks for putting it on the table. That's the best way to deal with it.

I suggest that Dhoomstriker continue to write scrolls for the sadistic folks like myself. I further suggest that he put the bulk of his messages in a spoiler and spend an extra 5 minutes to write a brief summary. If you're willing to accept his summary as fact, there is no need to open the spoiler. If you want to debate the issue, then you'll be forced to open the spoiler to understand how he came to the conclusion. The choice would be yours.

Sound good or is this still too much?

I love that idea. I love to learn all the nitty gritty details but I find myself unable to respond to some of this stuff because by the time I read the 5 pages of new posts every day, I have forgotten what I wanted to comment on.

 

[unclethrill]

Okay so I'll try to address what I can remember from the last 4 pages.

1. Please play Havr.

2. I agree that we are learning lots from Dhoom but I also have limited time to read and test and since I have to spend my two hours a day reading, I have no time to test. Testing is fun and informative but makes no sense if what I plan to test from page 46 is already obsolete on page 52.

3. I think Culture is mostly off the table. We need to focus on a Diplo win. We can't keep riding the fence much longer or both VC will suffer. We have lousy land and limited warring capabilities so getting 3 LC and getting them in a timely fashion is not likely to happen

4. I am still fully in favor of a city to the SE near where the warrior is right now (need to explore a bit but that blocking area is our best choice. The next city needs to be to the N or NE. Zara is a REXing fiend. If he has one one city then I would guess he has little or no land (of value) to his east. If this is true then he is going to push in our direction and soon. If he has delayed to build a wonder then the settlers will follow soon. If he plays like Zara usually does, he is about to plop down a city in the next couple turns and we need to be ready to respond.

5. We need to get the oracle and confusion-ism ASAP. We need it by T94 ish or less. The fact that Louis got confused on T78(?) is irrelevant. He is not the person we know and if an AI gets confused then we just go for theo.

6. BLubmuz, can you please refrain from the yellow and white style colors. I'm partially color blind and those colors are nearly impossible for me to see. I can't even play the game with the blue marble mod because I can't see the terrain well enough to make out details. I struggle to make out the details in the regular game, please don't make me struggle to read the posts too.

7. Please don't feel like you need to be silent. We all have good suggestions just some have more than others. Havr may be a less experienced player than some of us but he may well have been in a situation that none of us have been in and his input is valuable. Please continue to speak up. I also play the SGOTM for fun and when it becomes a chore I get short on temper too. Feel free to speak your mind. We would all rather know how everyone feels about the game than to have anyone just go MIA.