SGOTM 11 - Unusual Suspects

[kcd_swede]

This is bad.... losing a worker this early is very sloppy and a big setback.

Sloppy, yes. Big setback? Not so sure. Worker was being used to scout. So we lost a scout. Not a big deal. OK, its an expensive scout hammer-wise, but still, not like losing your only worker or losing a worker before getting power tiles hooked up. So it sucks, but not a game-deciding factor by any means.

The only way I can agree with a future turnset is to have turn by turn all actions, tiles worked and unit/worker moves.

Funny that you mention that.... personally I thought it was a bit overkill for Narri to write the movement arrows by hand onto the map. But he did that. So I doubt we can eliminate this kind of mental slip simply by making a more detailed plan. And the best laid plans of mice and men...

Top teams do it anyway, we are a bit more casual, but we cannot afford to do mistakes like that, or we might as well call it a day.

Top teams have been beating everyone else by centuries by having a superior and minimalist goal-oriented strategy. Sure, we can finish at the top, middle, or bottom of the 2nd grouping depending on how well we execute the plan and adjust to the conditions. And so the chance of sneaking in another bronze laurels gets less likely the more wasteful errors like this get made.

But we slow our finish date a lot more by not having a GS bulb plan, for example. How many GS can we use to bulb the UN path and how will we generate that many GS points by wen they are needed? Answer that in an elegant way and we make up for five lost workers, probably.

City placement and roles in a culture game is also good to discuss, because we might have to switch goals. How to get religions? How to get resources after we flip switch to culture mode? How to avoid being DOW'd by Toku while in culture mode?

Although I don't think we need to answer these questions to play the next 10 turns, I begin to worry that we will never answer them and always just be playing 10 turns at a time towards a very vague sort of goal until the end-game (where it is too late to really streamline anything).

So don't blame me when you GS wants to bulb Biology when we needed him to bulb Electricity. I warned you. (Don't trade for chemistry).

BTW: Plan A seems OK to me. "If you don't know where you are trying to go, it doesn't matter which road you take"- Cheshire Cat.

 

[kcd_swede]

If we could use worldbuilder to make Great people whenever we want them, how would we want them in a UN speed finish?

Tech beeline (bakifrån): Mass Media < Radio < Electricity < Physics

Last GPerson wanted would be a GE to rush UN - he'll take 20 turns from the UN build time (recall we will have no factories, have already chopped the crap out of our land, won't be able to use USuff because we didn't build the Pyramids and nobody is at Democracy yet... etc). First GE should be saved for this purpose. GPro and GM and extra GS or GA can be used for Golden Age during UN build, perhaps.

Of course, you'd like to bulb every tech, too. A GS can only bulb Mass Media after we have every tech before Future Tech (you lose at industrialism with obsolete fur, btw), so the Great Artist can do it instead, it just requires we already have Lit, Drama, Music, Polyth, and Monarchy, plus you need all the pre-reqs to MM, and there's only one, its called Radio. A GM can bulb MM too, but there are too many techs it would bulb first, so a GM would be for cash mission, most likely. OK, you get how I'm thinking. Back to the story:

A GA is also the only (practical) way to bulb Radio. So if we aren't going for culture victory, we are saving any GA we get in order to bulb Radio + Mass Media. If we need t oswitch to culture, having these saved is nice. Probably not worth trying to generate these, at least until after we have all the GS we need.

How many GS we need? In the bulb path, there are easy techs (those which come early in the bulb order and do not require we avoid any techs), and hard tech (those that can only be bulbed if some techs above it cannot be researched due to lack of pre-reqs).

here are the techs in the UN path, with my estimation: working backwards .... Electricity (hard -- will bulb Biology, astronomy, paper, optics, fusion, Fisssion, and chemistry first), Physics (easy, gives free GSci), Sci Meth (easy), Astronomy (mostly easy - mucked up by chemistry, so no Gunpowder please!), Calandar/Optics too cheap to bulb.

So you see... paper not needed except to unlock bulbing of Elec. Education not needed at all. Liberalism a waste. etc. However, I doubt a good enough tech rate can be had without Unis/Oxford, and we need paper to unlock Electric bulb, so Edu isn't so bad (very easy to bulb). But Liberalism ONLY pays off if we can get from it a tech in the critical UN path that costs more than Liberalism! Lose the Lib race or take Nationalism from Lib is same thing to us in finish time. We want to aim for taking ASTRONOMY or SCI METH or PHYS! from Liberalism. Of these, Astronomy is most do-able.

So our finish should look something like this:

Education(1 bulb), trade up to & tech Optics, trade for Calendar, Philo (easy bulb?)Liberalism (free Astronomy), Sci Meth (bulb x 1-2), Phys (bulb x 1-2) free GS, Electricity (bulb x 1-2), Radio (GA-bulb x 1-2), Mass Media (GA-bulb x 1-2), build UN (GE-rush), win. Date circa 1400AD.

So really we need about 6 more GSci. Bulbing is the only thing that makes sense (after the academy) because we do not need fast tech after Mass Media... we need as much up front as possible.

We need 1 GE as well. A second GE only saves about 4 turns... not worth it.

We would like to have 2-4 GA for bulbing the last two techs as well... Radio especially is a long and boring tech to get by hand.

Liberalism race victory should be timed to take Astro, but if it looks like we are far enough ahead, try for Sci Meth, but if we can, could delay to take Physics. I've heard stories of folks taking Radio from Liberalism (never done it myself at Emperor level)... consider THAT the HOLY GRAIL. Teams that can get Radio from Liberalism by having bulbed Astro, sci meth, physics, and electricity will have a big edge.

So tech path is laid out for ya. NO GUNPOWDER!

We need 6 or more GSci, 1 GE, and 2-4 GA (in that priority). Its not that much to ask for, is it? How many turns until 1400AD?

Now... keep this in mind as you plan cities and wonders. Note, we are beelining, so GLib actually will get obsolete very quickly after it is built. Calculate how many turns it will get used to see if its worth the marble-powered hammers or not. My guess is not, but it could be close.

We'll need a forge to get a GE in an unpolluted gene-pool city. GA will show up from Nat Epic wanted or not. CS and Pacifism is the most efficient way to generate the GPP's for GSci's. Parth is only small bonus to that... and obsolete at Sci Meth, but could be best way to enhance the forging of a GE.

BTW... while building UN, the next tech is to go gunpowder>chemistry>biology to increase population.

Then... its just making everyone Friendly (or vassalized), and fulfilling the other game conditions. Noooooo problems!

 

[narri]

More thoughts:
I think we should officially make green dot the GP farm, and the next city to manually settle after blocking ZY.

In terms of GLib, most of the benefit is the +8GPP => +16 sci GPP it brings (with beakers to boot!). The next GP is worth 450, followed by 600,750, etc., so they're going to get expensive. It is 525 hammers, or 11.9 slaved people with marble (the wonder penalty is 0.5, right?). If we sacrifice the three trees at green dot after marble is hooked up brings us halfway home, and we should be able to grow fast enough to slave 4 or 5 people away for the GL. And the +16 GPP will be +24 GPP after NE, and +32 with Pacifism when we pick a religion. But three trees are probably overkill and will hurt health a lot.

A quick look at HoF tables for Diplo show Sci Meth happening around turn 270-290, and that's ignoring the Eldine conditions. If we take another 70 turns to get the city up, get everything hooked up, and build GLib, that still gives about 100 turns of benefit. That's ~1600 GPP. Anybody have a better way to spend those 525 hammers?

And don't forget that Eldine has to get 4 of our GP. So maybe a diversion to Economics (blech), or Communism (easy after Lib) to get a free GP should be considered. Too bad we cannot get a lucky event to get a free GP.

Can we militarily survive without Gunpowder/Rifling? Remember that ZY gets Oromo Warriors (immune to First Strike, free Drill I/Drill II), which can get nasty if we aren't friends with him. Hopefully we have some Diplo skill to keep people out. What are our contingency plans for fighting to get the fur? Certainly Airships at Physics can't hurt.

Shouldn't Currency be somewhere in the mix? And PP must be in there too. Our early soon-to-be towns need more power!

The pesky problem is getting that GE (which is useful in both VCs) without pollution. The longer we take to do that, the more points we'll need.

And we still see none of the critical resources. My goodness, so much to think about! More discussion please.

 

[Indiansmoke]

All i am interested in is the next 15-20 turns....the rest will be decided easier by having a clearer map situation.

Goals for next 15-20 turns

No more lost workers!
Settle a fourth city to tottaly block zara
take the barb city
make 2 workboats and scout
tech Alpha
grow capital and cotage it fully

That's it for me, now Narri needs to come upwith a micro plan

 

[Deckhand]

And don't forget that Eldine has to get 4 of our GP. So maybe a diversion to Economics (blech), or Communism (easy after Lib) to get a free GP should be considered.

Narri, lots of good points, including this one ^.

But I agree with Indiansmoke. I think our path for next session is agreed upon and the rest can wait. You posted a decent approach, turn it into a detailed PPP to be greenlighted.

=== edit
I just downloaded the save.
Bombay is about to shrink! Don't let that happen.
I'm hoping barbarian city builds a worker before we capture it. I don't know how the SW decides whether to build defenders or workers nor how close we can have our units. So, in ignorance I would move further away until we have all 5 or 6 ready for the assault.
Is city 4 going to "new blech incense" (NW of cows)? I think SE of that spot might be better (2W of cows). And city 3 is going to NE of Oasis (E of blocking spot), right?

 

[kcd_swede]

More thoughts:
I think we should officially make green dot the GP farm, and the next city to manually settle after blocking ZY.

In terms of GLib, most of the benefit is the +8GPP => +16 sci GPP it brings (with beakers to boot!). The next GP is worth 450, followed by 600,750, etc., so they're going to get expensive. It is 525 hammers, or 11.9 slaved people with marble (the wonder penalty is 0.5, right?). If we sacrifice the three trees at green dot after marble is hooked up brings us halfway home, and we should be able to grow fast enough to slave 4 or 5 people away for the GL. And the +16 GPP will be +24 GPP after NE, and +32 with Pacifism when we pick a religion. But three trees are probably overkill and will hurt health a lot.

A quick look at HoF tables for Diplo show Sci Meth happening around turn 270-290, and that's ignoring the Eldine conditions. If we take another 70 turns to get the city up, get everything hooked up, and build GLib, that still gives about 100 turns of benefit. That's ~1600 GPP. Anybody have a better way to spend those 525 hammers?

And don't forget that Eldine has to get 4 of our GP. So maybe a diversion to Economics (blech), or Communism (easy after Lib) to get a free GP should be considered. Too bad we cannot get a lucky event to get a free GP.

Can we militarily survive without Gunpowder/Rifling? Remember that ZY gets Oromo Warriors (immune to First Strike, free Drill I/Drill II), which can get nasty if we aren't friends with him. Hopefully we have some Diplo skill to keep people out. What are our contingency plans for fighting to get the fur? Certainly Airships at Physics can't hurt.

Shouldn't Currency be somewhere in the mix? And PP must be in there too. Our early soon-to-be towns need more power!

The pesky problem is getting that GE (which is useful in both VCs) without pollution. The longer we take to do that, the more points we'll need.

And we still see none of the critical resources. My goodness, so much to think about! More discussion please.

Gren Dot looks good as GPfarm, but I think Ainu looks even better. Fish, pigs, green tiles and FP beats clam, cow, and brown. Ainu should also be considered for Moai if we build that. Agree with IS that this decision has no impact on the next 10-20 turns, so can defer to later if there is disagreement. Besides... Junk Stone should be moved 1N from present spot and share the cow for Green Dot, as well as become coastal, imo.

As for GLib... I was thinking beakers only. I always forget that the best thing about it is actually the GPP (scientist flavor). You say don't forget that Eldine wants 4 of our GP... too late, I already forgot. Thanks for the minder, though.

ZY we are either going to get friendly or vassalize before gunpowder. If we screw that up we will be able to divert tech path and take the finish date hit rather than lose conquest defeat. I promise.

As for the other techs... the enabling techs... yes, by all means. I focus on the beeline only, but sometimes (ALWAYS) its faster not to just beeline from turn 1. So the techs you name are to be considered as ways to speed up the beeline. We might have to get some favorute-civic enabling techs as well. But I think keeping in mind what the minimum required is, we can better judge whether any deviation from the minimum would speed up our victory or slow it down. I suspect there will be plenty of back-fill techs to trade for from the minimalist path.

All i am interested in is the next 15-20 turns....the rest will be decided easier by having a clearer map situation.

Goals for next 15-20 turns

No more lost workers!
Settle a fourth city to tottaly block zara
take the barb city
make 2 workboats and scout
tech Alpha
grow capital and cotage it fully

That's it for me, now Narri needs to come upwith a micro plan

I agree with the near-term goals as they would fulfill the grand strategy in the best way. I especially agree with the worker thing. If Narri puts "Lose another worker to barbs" in the plan, I will definitely not greenlight it.

I just downloaded the save.
Bombay is about to shrink! Don't let that happen.
I'm hoping barbarian city builds a worker before we capture it. I don't know how the SW decides whether to build defenders or workers nor how close we can have our units. So, in ignorance I would move further away until we have all 5 or 6 ready for the assault.
Is city 4 going to "new blech incense" (NW of cows)? I think SE of that spot might be better (2W of cows). And city 3 is going to NE of Oasis (E of blocking spot), right?

I agree placement of the blech inscense should be moved SE of present spot, less desert in the bfc, and opens up possibility to squeeze in one more city up north if there is another fogged seafood to justify (assuming we go cultural, the satellite city count rather than satellite city quality becomes important). In a culture push I see Capitol, Floodplains city west, as cottaged legends, with Ainu as a GPFarm bulbing legend, with wonder boosts (hence Moai).

As for barbs... they will not spam defenders if you do not enter their borders. They will focus on growth. However, they will not build workers until (a) they have the techs to improve the good tiles, and (b) enemy units do not threaten the good spots.

So you should avoid getting too close until time for the kill.

Okie dokie... what's the plan for getting the settlers/axes built and cotteges used etc? Only two cities, so the micro isn't too much to plan out. But it isn't just Narri's job... if anyone has good ideas just put them up and make Narri's job easier. And if the active player needs help in planning, just say so and the team will do what we can.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I agree with the near-term goals as they would fulfill the grand strategy in the best way. I especially agree with the worker thing. If Narri puts "Lose another worker to barbs" in the plan, I will definitely not greenlight it.

am not so sure, you seem to confuse workers with scouts

 

[kcd_swede]

am not so sure, you seem to confuse workers with scouts

The fastest little hut-poppers on the planet! Too bad huts are off.

 

[Deckhand]

The fastest little hut-poppers on the planet! Too bad huts are off.

IIRC, scouts won't pop barbarians. Will workers?
What a bummer - using worker to pop hut and it spawning barbs. Even weak barbs are a problem for most workers.

Spoiler :

FFH golems can handle them.

 

[narri]

I'm still playing around with this PPP micro-wise, but the ideas are there. Read and critique please!

EDIT: Bunyanville is 1E of blocking city spot (coastal). I'm fine with changing Cow blocker SW of current proposed spot, but I need consensus on that one!

{{{My goodness, it is hard stuff to calculate a micro plan even with only 2 cities when there are so many goals to optimize at once! I will not make a detailed micro plan next time around, when we have more like 8-10 cities!}}}

PPP Round 2:

{I'm putting the micro in this set because of the tension between Bombay and Delhi with respect to the corns.And the tension between hammers and commerce. And the fact that I can use the eastern axe to fogbust now rather than attacking.}

The Plan: Block ZY and get to REXing! In 12 turns we will have barb city barring spectacular bad luck.

Diplomacy: Accept all NON-WAR demands, including cancel deals (which will hurt a bit health-wise in cap). Hopefully Toku doesn't know ZY for a little longer.

Research: Monarchy>Alphabet. All at 100% to get Monarchy in 6. (Can't get it in 5, alas).

Civics: Stay in Caste until both (a) Monarchy researched and (b) Borders pop at new city (Bunyanville) (6 turns). Then to HR+slavery until at least new settler settles incense city (which might not happen on my turnset, didn't calculate how fast we will research Alpha). Then consider Caste again for 5 turns of border popping goodness!

Cities:

New City (Bunyanville):
Will be settled and start working at end of turn 106.
Set on WB>WB.
Artist for 4 turns (border pop).
Then works 3-hammer tile until 2 WB out (2nd won't come out this turnset).

Bombay:
Finish Axe>Axe>Worker
I have decided that Bombay will eventually get 1 more GS before a GP farm swamps it.
I will take one scientist off and work copper, stagnating with 2 food left in the bin. We need 75 scientist-turns for the next GS. It won't happen in the 25 turns because of swap to slavery.
Because of the worker chop (see below, it's not the forest you think!) and upcoming swap to slavery, it turns out I can get 2 axes out in 8 turns from Bombay alone, meaning we have 7 axes and can use one to fogbust. No more lost workers for me!

Need 104-13 = 91 hammers
First 4 turns:
3 sci, corn + copper = 5 hammers/turn. 91-20 = 71.
Next 4 turns (time of swap to slavery is irrelevant):
Corn, 2 Forest, hill, Copper. = 9 hammers/turn. {{{I might change the corn into a lake to get Delhi to grow}}}
After 4 turns, 71-36 = 35. Forest gives 36, so we are set on that. 8 turns for 2 axes. Yeah, that's right.

Rest of time:
2 scientist, copper, corn, plains forest to get worker in 12.


Delhi:
Finish Axe>Finish Granary>Warrior until growth>Settler>Finish Warrior (growth)>Worker
Plan is to work max commerce and grow to time Monarchy in 6 turns so I can swap to both HR and Slavery. Grow to size 7 and 2-pop settler with max overflow. This has the flexibility of slaving earlier if ZY puts one out there.
First 6 turns:
Corn + Silver + 4 most developed cottages. {{{Might change 1 or 2 turns to use corn}}
With chop, will have finished axe,granary with 10 hammer overflow.
After Slavery+HR swap:
Same configuration to grow into size 7. At 7, will work another cottage until whip.
After Settler whip:
Take off 1 cottage. Grow back ASAP to size 6 configuration. Continue growth until happy cap, working cottages.

QUESTION: Pop slaved in Delhi get the +50% hammer bonus too, right? And thus 2-pop without penalty is 2*(1.5*44) = 3*44 = 132 hammers, right?

Units:
GS goes to make Academy after 1 turn of walking (darn river crossing penalty!).

I will keep the missionary where he is right now. Borders pop 1 turn slower, but information is worth it. I will think about moving it towards Incense as next settler pops. Or we might just leave him there. Quite useful spot that hill is.

Two eastern workers finish what they are doing, then create two more roads 2NE and 3N1E of Delhi so that when settler pops, can immediately move four squares. I did test that this will work in a WB test save (i.e. going NE,NE from Delhi is not considered crossing river). Then the workers will create two cottages on the plains and last river grassland tiles.

Western worker prechops 1SW from his position. Thanks to Holy City of Confu, borders will pop in 6 turns. Then worker will finish chop, bringing 36 hammers of joy.

Axe in East will go west around incense spot and fogbust! Turns out that with the chop I can get 2 axes out of Bombay quickly enough to match the timing that walking the axe would take.

New axe from Delhi will go west and wait 2 squares from barb city away from pig.

New axe from Bombay will go west to a spot 2 squares away from barb city as well.

Warrior in north goes to scout coast, then returns to forest around green dot to fogbust.


Turnset end at research Alpha.
Turnset pause at war, new AI, Zara has another settler, or I lose another worker (just kidding, just kidding, workers won't leave borders without protection for this turnset).

 

[kcd_swede]

IIRC, scouts won't pop barbarians. Will workers?
What a bummer - using worker to pop hut and it spawning barbs. Even weak barbs are a problem for most workers.

Spoiler :

FFH golems can handle them.

For best results in hut popping rng, use a scout, worker, settler, or missionary. Where'd you get an idea that scouts can't pop huts? Perhaps you are thinking huts that are guarded by a barb unit? Then that's true.
But huts are off, and we have not unlocked the technology for golems yet.

 

[Deckhand]

. Where'd you get an idea that scouts can't pop huts?

I meant scouts won't pop barbarians from huts, not that they can't pop huts.

Spoiler :

where'd you get the idea that's what i meant?

For best results in hut popping rng, use a scout, worker, settler, or missionary

This is what I was asking. But it's not true: I know that missionaries will pop barbs (out of huts).

Spoiler :

always peace gotm

[so question is still unanswered ]

OK, since we are off-topic, I will ask my question about narri's plan: do we get more for a forest chop if it is in our borders? (i thought was only distance related) don't answer, i will go worldbuild test.

Spoiler :

yes, it is true

 

[kcd_swede]

Bunyanville is 1E of blocking city spot (coastal). I'm fine with changing Cow blocker SW of current proposed spot, but I need consensus on that one!

Buntanville location is agreed. The Inscented Cow site is still open for discussion, with Deckhand and myself prefering SW of the current marked spot.

{{{My goodness, it is hard stuff to calculate a micro plan even with only 2 cities when there are so many goals to optimize at once! I will not make a detailed micro plan next time around, when we have more like 8-10 cities!}}}

Don't worry... Its usually just one or two cities or a military front that need special attention.

The Plan: Block ZY and get to REXing! In 12 turns we will have barb city barring spectacular bad luck.

If it weren't for bad luck, we'd have no luck at all! But this sounds like a quite safe goal (unless you see that the barbs made more archers or an axe).

Diplomacy: Accept all NON-WAR demands, including cancel deals (which will hurt a bit health-wise in cap). Hopefully Toku doesn't know ZY for a little longer.

Then it is best you stop your set before hitting "end turn" when alpha is due. Because once we have alpha, we could start getting demands, perhaps the same ibt we acheive alpha. We should discuss responses to possible tech demands before we make such a blanket policy.

Research: Monarchy>Alphabet. All at 100% to get Monarchy in 6. (Can't get it in 5, alas).

Turnset duration in turns? (i.e. how many turns to alphabet)

Cities:

New City (Bunyanville):
Will be settled and start working at end of turn 106.
Set on WB>WB.
Artist for 4 turns (border pop).
Then works 3-hammer tile until 2 WB out (2nd won't come out this turnset).

No no no... after the border pop, work the Oasis (3f+2c) until pop2 and by then you are in HR+slavery and whip the fricking thing. I think that's faster, or at least as fast and provides extra commerce. WB2 maybe whipped as well, unless we have power tile hooked up by then.

QUESTION: Pop slaved in Delhi get the +50% hammer bonus too, right? And thus 2-pop without penalty is 2*(1.5*44) = 3*44 = 132 hammers, right?

Stop, you are making my head hurt. I am really bad at these calculations, and if I strain myself I can at best come within +/- 5%. I'll trust your calc over mine any day of the week.

Turnset end at research Alpha.
Turnset pause at war, new AI, Zara has another settler, or I lose another worker (just kidding, just kidding, workers won't leave borders without protection for this turnset).

How many turns is that? And I suggest either we decide whether we are giving away monopoly techs to keep good diplo or not before you hit enter. You decide if you want to wait for that discussion before playing or let next player hit enter after we discuss. Note, we'd need to hit enter to see what trades are available before next turnset could be planned anyhow, so perhaps we answer now. I'm not even sure the AI can demand tech before they have alphabet, anhow. Anybody know this? If they can, should we accede to the extortion, since its so long to the end that the one we want to hate now might be the one we need as friend later. I think we'll lead tech race enough that we can afford to accept the demand at this stage, should it come.

 

[narri]

Ugh, I never realized that we get at least FLOOR(1.2 * (beakers + 1)) towards a tech if the tech has at least one prerequisite. You learn something new everyday (from http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/tech_research.php). This basically throws my time estimate out the window! One of these days I must write a program to do these things for me, argh.

Good thing I was testing out my build with a test game and noticed the discrepancy!

Every time I feel like I'm done, there's a new improvement to make. New PPP up soon with an actual time estimate.

EDIT: NEW PPP
PPP Round 2.1
The Plan: Block ZY and get to REXing! In 12 turns we will have barb city barring spectacular bad luck. In 13, we will have Alpha and an Incensed Cow.

**Incensed cow will be 1SW from current spot, as by now majority agreement**

Religion: Stay NSR. No need for Confu right now.

Espionage: Stay focused on Toku. Still have 27 EP margin for viewing ZY research.

Diplomacy: No optional trades except a miracle OB from Toku. Accept all NON-WAR demands, including cancel deals (which will hurt a bit health-wise in cap). Hopefully Toku doesn't know ZY for a little longer. In the unlikely event of a tech demand, accept unless tech is one of {Monarchy,CoL,CS}. **PLEASE CONFIRM THIS OR CHANGE THE SET OF TECHS TO REJECT**

Research: Monarchy>Alphabet. All at 100% to get Monarchy in 5, and Alpha in another 8. (It might be 7 if I get another pleasant surprise in research calculation).

Civics
5 turns (until Monarchy): Stay in Caste
Swap to HR+Slavery
Whip Settler
Swap back to Caste right after pushing the whip button!
Will still be in Caste at end of Turnset.

Cities:

New City (Bunyanville)
Will be settled and start working at end of turn 106.
Set on WB>WB.
Artist for 4 turns (border pop).
Then:
Work Oasis. Whip WB. Rinse (the dead body of Bunyan) and repeat(edly burn the body of the barb warrior).

Bombay
Finish Axe>Axe>Worker
I have decided that Bombay will eventually get 1 more GS before a GP farm swamps it.
I will take one scientist off and work copper, stagnating with 2 food left in the bin. We need 75 scientist-turns for the next GS. It won't happen in the 25 turns because of swap to slavery.
Because of the worker chop (see below, it's not the forest you think!), it turns out I can get 2 axes out in 8 turns from Bombay alone, meaning we have 7 axes and can use one to fogbust. No more lost workers for me!

Need 104-13 = 91 hammers
First 4 turns
3 sci, corn + copper = 5 hammers/turn. 91-20 = 71.

Next 7 turns
Lake, 2 Forest, hill, Copper. = 9 hammers/turn.

After 4 turns, 71-36 = 35. Forest gives 36, so we are set on that. 8 turns for 2 axes. Yeah, that's right.

Next turn (after swap back to Caste)
1 Corn, copper, 3 sci
One more turn
Lake, 2 Forest, hill, Copper


Delhi
NEW Finish Granary>Finish Axe>Start Warrior (growth) {1t}>Settler (whip)>Worker>Finish Warrior>Warrior* until end of turnset for growth
Plan is to work max commerce and grow to time Monarchy in 5 turns so I can swap to both HR and Slavery. Grow to size 7 and 2-pop settler with max overflow. This has the flexibility of slaving earlier if ZY puts one out there quickly.

First 4 turns:
Corn + Silver + 4 most developed cottages.
Next 2 turns:
2 Corn + Silver + 3 most developed cottages. After this, growth to 7, will be a happy citizen after HR swap.

Granary produced on 3rd turn (chop), Axe on 5th (which will synchonize with 2nd axe from Bombay), need 1 warrior turn to grow.

----
Next turns as list (so I don't forget!):
1) 2 corn, 2 cot, sil, 2 min
2) ditto
3) ditto
4) 2 corn, 4 cot, sil => (gets us to max overflow point in only 4 turns)
5) 2-pop WHIP -> 2 corn, 2 cot, sil =>Produces Settler
6) 1 corn, 3 cot, silver =>Produces Worker
7) 2 corn, 2 cot, silver => Research Alpha


Units:
GS goes to make Academy after 1 turn of walking (darn river crossing penalty!).

I will keep the missionary where he is right now. Borders pop 1 turn slower, but information is worth it. I will think about moving it towards Incense as next settler pops. Or we might just leave him there. Quite useful spot that hill is.

Two eastern workers finish what they are doing, then create two more roads 2NE and 3N1E of Delhi so that when settler pops, can immediately move four squares. I did test that this will work in a WB test save (i.e. going NE,NE from Delhi is not considered crossing river). Then the workers will create two cottages on the plains and last river grassland tiles. NEW: Then one worker will head towards Blocking Spot and hook up wheat. Other worker hooks up cows at Incensed Cow. Produced Worker makes another cottage.

Western worker prechops 1SW from his position. Thanks to Holy City of Confu, borders will pop in 6 turns. Then worker will finish chop, bringing 36 hammers of joy, and subsequently mine the hill. Another road is useless for getting axes there faster.

Axe in East will go west around incense spot and fogbust! Turns out that with the chop I can get 2 axes out of Bombay quickly enough to match the timing that walking the axe would take.

New axe from Delhi will go west and wait 2 squares from barb city away from pig.

First new axe from Bombay will go west to a spot 2 squares away from barb city as well.

Warrior in north goes to scout coast, then returns to forest around green dot to fogbust.

Turnset end at research Alpha.
Turnset pause at war, new AI, Zara has another settler, or I lose another worker (just kidding, just kidding, workers won't leave borders without protection for this turnset).

 

[Deckhand]

Espionage: Stay focused on Toku. Still have 27 EP margin for viewing ZY research.

I'm not bothering to review past posts to see If I Recall Correctly, but this surprised me. I thought we were still focusing all espionage on Zara.

 

[narri]

I'm not bothering to review past posts to see If I Recall Correctly, but this surprised me. I thought we were still focusing all espionage on Zara.

We can't do very much with any additional spy points on ZY at the moment. And I have a feeling we'll need every single EP on Toku we can spare for later (forced civic change anyone?). I've been focusing on Toku since the swap to CS.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I don't agree on the plan here is why...

Generally, we do not need another scientist just yet. Lets focus on rexing. Bombay should be our slaving city...at pop 6 3 pop slave settlers and at pop 4 2 pop slave workers....no mercy...grow building warriors to fog bust everything on the island and then slave workers and settlers....no scientists for now. We need fast rex....

for now though lets slave a few axes and take that barb city...2 pop slave one then 2 pop slave another, you should get 2 axes in 4 turns from bombay, overflow to another one, finish it growing and then at pop 4 start settler to 2 pop slave it.

Also NO WHIPING IN CAPITAL....grow it building units

 

[narri]

I don't agree on the plan here is why...

for now though lets slave a few axes and take that barb city...2 pop slave one then 2 pop slave another, you should get 2 axes in 4 turns from bombay, overflow to another one, finish it growing and then at pop 4 start settler to 2 pop slave it.

Alas, it conflicts with the need to expand blocking spot's borders under Caste. Unless you don't want me to expand the borders and settle for using the "cant settle within 2 squares" rule to block ZY and swap to Slavery right away.

I want to eventually whip Bombay to the ground too, believe me, but that tension with the shared corns comes up again. We cannot grow both cities effectively at the same time. And Bombay does not have a granary yet, so I doubt I can get the needed growth rate to slave as you propose (but I'll try the calculation anyway). I need one pop point of growth before the second 2-pop whip for starters (5->3, need to be at 4 before next whip).

Maybe I will end up slaving at Bombay instead of working silly tiles, but not to this kind of magnitude right away.

I'm a bit unsatisfied with the whipping at the capital myself, but whips there get the +50% modifier on hammer yield. Two pop for 44*1.5*2 = 132 hammers is a fair trade if we keep growing cap afterwards and don't slave again.

I swapped the Granary with the Axe in this version precisely to get more food overflow going to size 7, and thus can recover faster after the whip, without slowing down the taking of Ainu given the 2Axe/8turn plan in Bombay. I can swap back and slave Bombay instead, but we lose a few food in the recovery.

Back to the spreadsheet and test games then!

Things that need to be considered at the same time when coming up with an alternative plan:
Research speed into Monarchy/Alpha
Civic swapping to HR and choosing btw Slavery/Caste and the 5 turn wait time
3 Axes needed at Ainu to take it, Eastern axe is 12-13 moves away.
Lack of granaries at either city.
The lust to grow hamlets/village we have.
Getting the settler to Incensed Cow before ZY (and the flexibility to be suboptimal in an emergency).
Making more workers.
Completing fogbusting coverage.
Be in a position to whip Bombay into the ground effectively.
Usage of the two shared corns.

 

[narri]

Well, sometimes you learn 2 things in the same day. This time, Slavery is a great civic when you don't want border pop.

PPP Patch 2.1:
New City Plan:
Bombay will no longer support scientists. It will whip itself to the ground, but yield 3 axes and 1 worker in 8 turns, with a whipped Granary soon after.
Delhi uses the chop to speed Settler to 5 turns. Commerce is emphasized as much as possible while keeping settler production speed. Same principle on Granary. Then go to 2 corn, mass cottages while finishing axe and making garrison warriors.

Civics:
Swap to slavery RIGHT NOW, in effect for Production Turn 1.
For 6th Production turn, swap to Caste.
When both Incense Cow border pops and Bunyanville size 2, swap to Slavery to whip WB.

Benefits:
Settler in 5 turns, can whip faster in emergency.
Well timed for road finishing.
Ainu is ours in 9 turns.
Another axe on field.

Drawbacks:
Bombay will take forever to recover food-wise and is for most purposes useless.
Bunyanville will NOT pop borders, and thus can't farm wheat this set.
Time to Monarchy now 7 turns.
Time to Alphabet now 13 turns.
Unit upkeep goes up slightly.

Pick your poison.

Bombay:
Currently: Axe 13/52
Build Order: Finish Axe>Axe>Axe>Worker
1) Whip Axe + work copper, hill, 2 forests. 45+9 = 54 hammers. Axe produced with 15 overflow.
2) Copper, hill, 2 forests. 15+9 = 24/52
3) Whip Axe + work copper, 2 forests. Additional 45+8 = 53 hammers. Axe produced with 25 overflow.
4) Copper, 2 forests. 25 + 8 = 33/52.
5) Whip Axe + work copper, plains forest. Additional 45+7 = 52 hammers. Axe produced with 33 overflow.
6) Chop comes in from 2SW of Bombay for 36 more hammers. 33 + 36 + 7 + 1 excess food = 77/90 on worker.
7) Copper + plains forest => 7 hammers + 1 excess food. => 85/90
8) Copper + plains forest => 7 hammers + 1 excess food => Worker produced with 3 overflow.
9-end) Continue to work Copper + plains forest while building Granary. Whip when possible, keeping copper worked. Grow back slowly without corn.

Delhi:
Now with the 2 corn, can do a lot more.
Build Order: Settler>Granary>Axe>Warriors until Alpha
{SILVER IS ALWAYS WORKED}
1) 2 corn, 1 cottage, 2 mines
2) ditto
3) 2 corn, 2 cottage, 1 mine, chop comes in yielding 36*1.5 = 48 hammers
4) ditto
5) ditto. Settler completed with 0 overflow.
6) 1 corn, 2 cottage, 2 mines, yields 16 hammers and 68 beakers per turn
7) ditto
8) ditto. Granary produced
9) 2 corn, 3 cottage. Now gets +8 food per turn
10) ditto
11) ditto. Growth to size 7 after this turn.
12) add cottage.
13) ditto
14) ditto. Will be 2 turns from growth after this turn. Alpha is researched.

Bunyanville:
First production turn is turn 2.
Work Oasis. Whip WB when size 2 (11 turns I think). Repeat.
2-12) Work Oasis =>grow to size 2
13) Whip WB, work Oasis
14) work Oasis

Incensed Cow:
First production turn is turn 7.
7) Grassland Forest, set on Granary (??)
QUESTION: Should I chop for stuff here? I actually want to save the forests here for the UN build!

 

[Indiansmoke]

OK here is what I would propose.

Fire all scientists and work tiles (including lake). This will have axe ready in 5 turns, meanwhile settle third city and run artist...will border pop in 4 turns.

Start running 100% research next turn when settled scientist and we will have monachy in 6 turns, when you will switch to slavery and hereditary rule.

Work tiles like I have them in screens.

Capital finishes the axe (do not work unimproved tiles!), then granary then gets 3-4 warriors and grows working all available cottages....

Finish chop with that worker and finish granry then work all cotages in capital.

The worker in bombay send him to cottage for 1 turn that shared green tile with capital, and hen both workers cottage the river grassland in capital.

cottage all green tiles in capital and then all green tiles in bombay send one worker in new city to improve food.

Depending on what units are in barb city decide what you build after axe in bombay...idially start settler to slaving point, then switch to granary and whip granary if no settler built by zara.