SGOTM 11 - Unusual Suspects

[Indiansmoke]

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OK, there are some big issues we have to decide to get the questions answered for this PPP. What we will "decide" is actually more like a "working plan", and this is sure to require updating or reversing as we learn more about the 'hood.

1) Priority of WB exploring - we can't go through Toku's borders, so is it important to get this started before he blocks all coastal routes? Or do we have time? This determines where we settle the next city, coastal or not. We'd have to wait for enough axes to take the barb city --if we settle as the dotmap suggests-- to get a coastal city.

2) ZY friend or foe? I think that friend is better, because we'll need trading and Toku can be difficult to trade with. If Toku dow's ZY or vice versa, we'd have to re-asess our options, though. If ZY's going to be friend, that speaks against Proxy of Anger. If we make other contacts, we can have more freedom in picking our friends.

What is the main goal of this turnset? I favor (a) starting the wb exploring, and (b) get the force of axes for barb city taking.

With these goals, settling the coast east makes the most sense... no cow ever, but at least another silver we can trade. Then building the axe force at a decent pace, and another settler for blocking site (or near there). Diplo should look for trading with ZY. Toku won't do anything but gripe and we'll deny his requests. We'd Fair Trade with ZY rather than make impertinent demands... at least until he has something better than clams to give us.

Religion
We can adopt Confu, can't we? It will aid happiness cap and help relations with ZY get to Friendly faster.

Just some thoughts. What do you guys see as the main goals for the next 20 turns or so? I've got Narri's answers from his PPP, but everyone else?

I am almost cerain that this map has zara with us on an island and then all other ais are alone on their islands. In my logic this is the only way the map maker could make sure that ai's don't take each other our before we can do anything to stop it, hence making these rules...


I am also pretty certain that our workboat will find other ai's north from that land and east from zara...so workboat exploring big priority IMO....and it is a major reason corns were put there by mapmaker as you had to chose between exploring and CS sling.


ZY I agree friend, but we need to take that blocking spot (cow, wheat) before he does..can we make it? I am not sure.


Barb city is the best spot on the map and must be taken asap before too many archers get in there...AH we will trade with zara BTW.

So if we had scouted the silvers and there was seafood there I would go there otherwise settle coast towards zara...so I propose to send a 3 move worker there to explore for us before we decide (cautiously lets not lose him)

 

[narri]

EDIT: Hmm, somehow I didn't read Indian's proposal about scouting with worker. I'll think about it!

Yeah, the dotmap isn't the best. But we have to start somewhere!

PPP version 0.5:
The Plan:
Neo Proxy city of Malice is 2S, 1W of the old spot (coastal grassland hill with 1 silver in BFC).

Settle Neo Proxy City of Malice in ZY's sights, then conquer barb city with axes while setting up infrastructure. Workboat is chopped quickly to get scouting done. Be peaceful with Zara for now, intending friendship.

Diplomacy:
Ask "nicely" for Clam from Zara. If no, trade Corn for Clam. Either way, +1 health.
Reject all calls for war. Accept all other demands (except our copper), including cancel deals with Zara. {Last chance to countermand this.}

Spy points all to Toku, start allocating back if about to lose research visibility on Zara (~2 points away). I have a feeling those spy points will be useful later on Toku. Unless we want to start stealing tech from ZY.

Civics/Cities/Workers:
Buerocracy and Caste System until Academy. Will pause at GS birth to reevaluate what we know.

Delhi first goes back to 5 hamlet, 1 silver for 1 turn (to give corn to Bombay).
Delhi then goes to a high hammer configuration working corn, silver, 2 mines, plain-on-river (will be cottaged later?), and hamlet (with +1 food surplus) for 18 post-CS hammers/turn. Granary>Axe>Axe>Warrior {garrison}>Worker. 2 Axes walk towards barb city.

Bombay works 2 corns and 3 sci for 1 turn, then 1 corn, 4 sci for 10 turns, exactly getting GS (and with 2 food left in bin). Chops out current axe and one other axe using almost chopped forest and forest on hill. Those two axes go towards barb city as well.

4 axemen versus 2 archers then? The fifth axe would come from Delhi (instead of garrison warrior), but it would take a few more turns of walking for him to get there.

Malice runs artist for border pop and chops out workboat using hill forest {use plains forest instead?}. Malice gets Confu missionary? {Anyone want it to go to Zara instead?}. Malice will be WB>WB>{warrior?}. First one explores quickly east (as in circumnavigation). Second one explores west, will eventually settle whale on next border pop?

Tech:
Fishing in 1 turn at minimum possible research given tile assignments (didn't bother to calculate this). Then Monarchy at 0% research until GS birth.

Workers:
Eastern road finished, both eastern workers chop plains forest, mine hill {maybe chop then mine instead?}.
Western worker finishes chop, then chops hill, then roads towards barbs starting on hill going west. {Maybe road then chop?}

Pausing conditions:
GS is born.
Barb threatens Malice.
(Unlikely) war declared upon.
A new challenger approaches! (new ai contact)

 

[ETa]

Malice will be WB>WB>{warrior?}. First one explores quickly east (as in circumnavigation). Second one explores west, will eventually settle whale on next border pop?

Doesn't that require optics?

 

[kcd_swede]

Doesn't that require optics?

Yes, it does. And you're "On-deck" now.

 

[kcd_swede]

Accept all other demands (except our copper), including cancel deals with Zara. {Last chance to countermand this.}

Let's hope it doesn't happen yet. This is bad because we are trying to be friends with ZY. But it the negative for stoping trade will fade over a long time, whereas the negative with Toku for refusing his demand would be permanent. We may want to kill ZY and befriend Toku before this is over, so I think you have chosen the right action. But like I said, it'd be better if we know a lot more before we have to make that call.

4 axemen versus 2 archers then?

If its 2 archers that should be enough unless you have my kind of luck. But isn't it going to be 3 archers? 4 axes is pretty low odds in that case. Or am I confused by playing most of my recent games at Immortal level?

Worker explorer is a good idea... 2 worker turns now could save us making early strategic errors; a fair price to pay. But not if it messes up the timing of the builds and such too much. Let you decide on that.

Looks like a good plan... self-consistent in our guesses, at least. Anyone else have comments?

 

[Indiansmoke]

EDIT: Hmm, somehow I didn't read Indian's proposal about scouting with worker. I'll think about it!

Yeah, the dotmap isn't the best. But we have to start somewhere!

PPP version 0.5:
The Plan:
Neo Proxy city of Malice is 2S, 1W of the old spot (coastal grassland hill with 1 silver in BFC).

Settle Neo Proxy City of Malice in ZY's sights, then conquer barb city with axes while setting up infrastructure. Workboat is chopped quickly to get scouting done. Be peaceful with Zara for now, intending friendship.

Diplomacy:
Ask "nicely" for Clam from Zara. If no, trade Corn for Clam. Either way, +1 health.
Reject all calls for war. Accept all other demands (except our copper), including cancel deals with Zara. {Last chance to countermand this.}

Spy points all to Toku, start allocating back if about to lose research visibility on Zara (~2 points away). I have a feeling those spy points will be useful later on Toku. Unless we want to start stealing tech from ZY.

Civics/Cities/Workers:
Buerocracy and Caste System until Academy. Will pause at GS birth to reevaluate what we know.

Delhi first goes back to 5 hamlet, 1 silver for 1 turn (to give corn to Bombay).
Delhi then goes to a high hammer configuration working corn, silver, 2 mines, plain-on-river (will be cottaged later?), and hamlet (with +1 food surplus) for 18 post-CS hammers/turn. Granary>Axe>Axe>Warrior {garrison}>Worker. 2 Axes walk towards barb city.

Bombay works 2 corns and 3 sci for 1 turn, then 1 corn, 4 sci for 10 turns, exactly getting GS (and with 2 food left in bin). Chops out current axe and one other axe using almost chopped forest and forest on hill. Those two axes go towards barb city as well.

4 axemen versus 2 archers then? The fifth axe would come from Delhi (instead of garrison warrior), but it would take a few more turns of walking for him to get there.

Malice runs artist for border pop and chops out workboat using hill forest {use plains forest instead?}. Malice gets Confu missionary? {Anyone want it to go to Zara instead?}. Malice will be WB>WB>{warrior?}. First one explores quickly east (as in circumnavigation). Second one explores west, will eventually settle whale on next border pop?

Tech:
Fishing in 1 turn at minimum possible research given tile assignments (didn't bother to calculate this). Then Monarchy at 0% research until GS birth.

Workers:
Eastern road finished, both eastern workers chop plains forest, mine hill {maybe chop then mine instead?}.
Western worker finishes chop, then chops hill, then roads towards barbs starting on hill going west. {Maybe road then chop?}

Pausing conditions:
GS is born.
Barb threatens Malice.
(Unlikely) war declared upon.
A new challenger approaches! (new ai contact)

Approved by me...just keep in mind that when moving fast workers on forest hills you lose all moves so it is bad tactic moving 2 of them...just chop first and then move other so no moves lost.....IMo road and chop both plains forest and hill forest to get workboats and use other worker to road to barbs.

So 2 axes asap from chops in Bombay and 1 from capital using mine could do the job..if you see more than 1 archer in there just wait for 2vs1 ratio...

also remember to keep warriors in fogbusting duties...

Good luck

 

[narri]

Doesn't that require optics?

I knew I put something in that plan! Second workboat explores west to see if that ice tile in the southwest fog impedes progress then.

What's the verdict on adopting Confu? It's fine to stay NSR as I don't need the happy right now, but something to decide on in general.

Ok, I'll do the scout to the southern silver with the southernmost worker. I'll pause if I see anything sufficiently interesting to consider settling there instead (as I can't chop a WB settling on southernmost silver).

 

[kcd_swede]

I knew I put something in that plan! Second workboat explores west to see if that ice tile in the southwest fog impedes progress then.

What's the verdict on adopting Confu? It's fine to stay NSR as I don't need the happy right now, but something to decide on in general.

Ok, I'll do the scout to the southern silver with the southernmost worker. I'll pause if I see anything sufficiently interesting to consider settling there instead (as I can't chop a WB settling on southernmost silver).

...and if you see ice blocking the passage down there, the 2nd wb would go shortest way to that fogged island in the north, or something, right?

 

[narri]

...and if you see ice blocking the passage down there, the 2nd wb would go shortest way to that fogged island in the north, or something, right?

Yes, 2nd workboat does the local exploration around our island while the first races east as fast as possible to meet new people and get a head start on circumnavigation.

 

[kcd_swede]

Your plan is up for almost 24 hrs without serious objections (not counting the whaling thingy).

Indiansmoke approves.
I approve.
ETa didn't disapprove.
And deckhand, well... if he were going to object he'd have done it by now.

I'm not sure there are any other players on this team???

Oh well... the light is GREEN.

Just remember there are a lot of pause criteria so this might be a short session before pause (this turnset is likely to be a couple or three short sessions, I'm guessing).

I agree about Confu... we'll stay in NSR until happy caps are reached - it will be a team decision at that time.
BTW: One option for that missioner is to use him to scout the south silver, leaving the workers to... well... work. Do what you think best as lonfg as you don't go deviate from your plan. Good luck, and HAVE FUN!

 

[kcd_swede]

Today marks the end of the first quarter of alloted time to finsih this game. I think we're well on track to finish long before the August deadline, and a pretty good result, too.

 

[ETa]

Yes, it does. And you're "On-deck" now.

But sire.. my computer is in a cardboard casing at least from next saturday to wednesday.

 

[ETa]

ETa didn't disapprove.

I rely on chaos and thus can not approve or disapprove anything. The world always self-organizes itself to the outcome of it's choosing.

 

[Deckhand]

And deckhand, well... if he were going to object he'd have done it by now.

I object to that statement.

ZY I agree friend, but we need to take that blocking spot (cow, wheat) before he does..can we make it? I am not sure.

So if we had scouted the silvers and there was seafood there I would go there otherwise settle coast towards zara

Iis northern blocking city or south coast workboat city the priority?

I'm ok w PPP: Bur, Caste; fishing, Her Rule; SE coast city to build workboat and acquire more silver resources; If you can, put it where it can get seafood. Maybe we want a pause when we know what is there? Watch out for the wolves.
Build warriors for spawnbusting and axes to take barb city.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I object to that statement.


Iis northern blocking city or south coast workboat city the priority?

Both are, but we have to build them one at a time, so south first hoping that he will not take the north spot before we do.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I knew I put something in that plan! Second workboat explores west to see if that ice tile in the southwest fog impedes progress then.

What's the verdict on adopting Confu? It's fine to stay NSR as I don't need the happy right now, but something to decide on in general.

Ok, I'll do the scout to the southern silver with the southernmost worker. I'll pause if I see anything sufficiently interesting to consider settling there instead (as I can't chop a WB settling on southernmost silver).

No religion for now....

and if worker finds seafood plz stop for discussion.

Yes, 2nd workboat does the local exploration around our island while the first races east as fast as possible to meet new people and get a head start on circumnavigation.

Both workbotas should go east one to explore the coast off zara and one to explore north...south is ice and west is toku who will not open borders.

 

[narri]

I do everything right on the first turn. There is NOTHING at the silver. But I have to stop anyway for this. Zara has come out of the fog with a settling party as shown after I pressed enter.

Our settler and missionary are currently at Delhi with 2 full movement points left.

Note that malice is still 2s1w of anger (I had neglected to change it), and is still doable if ZY doesn't move from that spot.

Waiting for input.

 

[kcd_swede]

I do everything right on the first turn. There is NOTHING at the silver. But I have to stop anyway for this. Zara has come out of the fog with a settling party as shown after I pressed enter.

Our settler and missionary are currently at Delhi with 2 full movement points left.

Note that malice is still 2s1w of anger (I had neglected to change it), and is still doable if ZY doesn't move from that spot.

Waiting for input.

I think the value of a earlier workboats is no longer enough to justify settling the hill we had planned. Also, chopping wb's will be impossible since the forests will be in ZY's cult borders (assuming he settles in place, which seems most likely).

I'd say settle the blocking city now... ZY is settler spamming and we won't do it in time if we settle the Malice. We'll have to wait for axes to take the barb city in order to get workboat, but so be it. Getting the few good spots on our continent has to take priority over exploring, I think.

Does any body agree or do you think I'm just being wishy-washy?

 

[ETa]

Does any body agree or do you think I'm just being wishy-washy?

I think that your reasoning has merit, but that does not necessarily imply that you would not be wishy-washy.

 

[kcd_swede]

I think that your reasoning has merit, but that does not necessarily imply that you would not be wishy-washy.

Oh, we got us a comedian!

Maybe I should rephrase...
Everyone who thinks we should continue to settle the grasshill SE workboat city, raise your hand.

That's what I thought.