I replayed it for the reason I said, to understand what happened and if Murphy was involved, not to upload and change to my save. I posted it for the other teammembers to help you to also understand what went wrong and how it should have looked at 150BC. Had I uploaded the turn to SGOTM that would have disqualified us but I cannot see how a deeper analysis of a turn set already sumitted could be seen as disqualifying. Nothing is revealed in my test that is not in the current turn set.Kulko said:
SGOTM 11 - Wotan
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Wotan is correct,he simply replayed already played turns and there is nothing wrong with that.
As for the game is concerned... MIstakes were made in both home land and frontline...
From Schiddi log:
But we can't do anything without declaring war against Japan first.
I can't believe we lost Alexandria to Egypt Archers with all the stream of horses... Attacking Damascus that was pop1 and no culture... what were you thinking?
the game is lost and fun is also lost.
As for the game is concerned... MIstakes were made in both home land and frontline...
From Schiddi log:
That means if we make peace now our reputation is destroyed.
But we can't do anything without declaring war against Japan first.
I can't believe we lost Alexandria to Egypt Archers with all the stream of horses... Attacking Damascus that was pop1 and no culture... what were you thinking?
the game is lost and fun is also lost.
This is for Alan to decide, but I think replaying a turnset, especially a botched one can give you a lot of intangible information which might come useful in the next one or two turnsets. You succesfully attacked cities, so you know the exact strength of defense. You might have learned something by doing trades differently, or moving ships onto different exploration courses.
On top of it, I see absolutely no gain in the "What went wrong" informations. It was all there within 24 hours in the forum and much more accurate and complete then the informations you took out of your turnset.
But that is done now, and will be judged by the refs.
Apart from all that, I am still in, and would like to know who else? We will not get first, or even in the TOP 3 but there are still a lot of interesting challenges left in the game.
On top of it, I see absolutely no gain in the "What went wrong" informations. It was all there within 24 hours in the forum and much more accurate and complete then the informations you took out of your turnset.
But that is done now, and will be judged by the refs.
Apart from all that, I am still in, and would like to know who else? We will not get first, or even in the TOP 3 but there are still a lot of interesting challenges left in the game.
Yes! Fun is definitely gone. I signed up for SGOTM10 to play a learning game so we played on even if things were not always done in a competitive way. SGOTM11 OTOH I stated at the start of this game we played for the laurels and that should be understood by all on the team. That means taking care of the simple things like MMing all towns at least in the core each turn. Something Schmiddi got Flak for last turnset but ignored and continued disregarding this turn set. Loss of Alexandria is a big WHAT???, as is attacking Damascus at size 1, with a comment like "oh they must have built a settler". Couldn't Schmiddi look at the screen before attacking to notice the "1"? The attack on Mecca was also a great example of not being familiar with Civ3. What was it? 5 HMs! A capital on a hill!!! Late BC should indicate 4 defending Spear so how many HMs do you take to the party? 8 if in open terrain is a common guideline, twice the number. But on a hill I would guess 12 is a minimum. There are so many indicators in Schiddis turn set he does not understand Civ at the level required to play for the laurels. This could be helped if you listen to advice but so many things were done without listening to it I cannot understand why he elected to ruin our game? An honourable choice would have been to drop from the team instead of ruining the enjoyment of the other team members. Some regard for others should have been shown I guess.
I still do not feel like investing more time in this game. Schmiddi was asked to make sure he MMed after the problem he created last turn set. He ignored it and made the situation so chaotic by playing in a style that suggest he does not fully understand Civ3. This was not a learning game, I joined it to play for the laurels, that is out of the equation now. Not telling the team he was not at par with the expectations and willing to play with care is such a disappointment. Better cut your losses now that playing for another half dozen turn sets.
@Kulko: Knowing there are 4 defenders in a capital is not rocketscience, or 2 in other towns at this stage of the game. And, I see lots of value in finding out if Schmiddi blaming Murphy was a correct thing to do or if Murphy actually was Schmiddi in disguise. It turned out it was the latter.
I still do not feel like investing more time in this game. Schmiddi was asked to make sure he MMed after the problem he created last turn set. He ignored it and made the situation so chaotic by playing in a style that suggest he does not fully understand Civ3. This was not a learning game, I joined it to play for the laurels, that is out of the equation now. Not telling the team he was not at par with the expectations and willing to play with care is such a disappointment. Better cut your losses now that playing for another half dozen turn sets.
@Kulko: Knowing there are 4 defenders in a capital is not rocketscience, or 2 in other towns at this stage of the game. And, I see lots of value in finding out if Schmiddi blaming Murphy was a correct thing to do or if Murphy actually was Schmiddi in disguise. It turned out it was the latter.
Ok Wotan, I perfectly understand you on this one. Lets hope we can keep the core team together for the next game then.
I will download the save before Schmiddi then and toddle on a bit myself.
This whole thing is just so frustrating.
@ turnset. I could have told you that by looking 1 minute at the result easily. Nothing apart from the Japanese Settler looked like necessary, when you know how to cut your losses, when things go bad.
I will download the save before Schmiddi then and toddle on a bit myself.
This whole thing is just so frustrating.
@ turnset. I could have told you that by looking 1 minute at the result easily. Nothing apart from the Japanese Settler looked like necessary, when you know how to cut your losses, when things go bad.
If the rest of the team want to continue do so. I just feel I am not prepared to invest the time needed to continue. Might follow the discussions. And hope to see you guys in another game. Question is how we go about making sure we are not stuck with yet another catastrophical player.
Edit: If I find the time maybe I will continue from my save at 150BC. OTOH I would miss out on the discussions with you guys so it will not be nearly as good as we should have been able to do jointly.
Edit: If I find the time maybe I will continue from my save at 150BC. OTOH I would miss out on the discussions with you guys so it will not be nearly as good as we should have been able to do jointly.
TimBentley
Deity
Declaring war and attacking Japan will cause China to break the alliance, so peace can be made.dmanakho said:
Our QSC was rather nice. I'm willing to continue if others are.
Hmmm ok, then lets finish that with three people.
Tim Bentley - up
Kulko - in wait
dman - will play soon
General strategy
As I said, we might consider switching our attack totally from Arab to China, and conquer a new core there. Other choice would be to just take easy reachable japanese/chinese cities but lead a defensive war and use the time to settle the jungle in arab we conquered so far. This would give Egypt/arab the time necessary to grow their cities to size 2.
Diplomacy
To avoid penalties we should use following procedure:
1) declare against Japan.
2) attack Japan
3) watch China breaking our alliance
4) make peace with Arabia/Egypt for whatever we can get.
Tim Bentley - up
Kulko - in wait
dman - will play soon
General strategy
As I said, we might consider switching our attack totally from Arab to China, and conquer a new core there. Other choice would be to just take easy reachable japanese/chinese cities but lead a defensive war and use the time to settle the jungle in arab we conquered so far. This would give Egypt/arab the time necessary to grow their cities to size 2.
Diplomacy
To avoid penalties we should use following procedure:
1) declare against Japan.
2) attack Japan
3) watch China breaking our alliance
4) make peace with Arabia/Egypt for whatever we can get.
Hi guys, I will hopefully be able to comment on stuff etc. But I am currently dividing my time between two major projects and one of them is to ramp up to commercial status at new year so time is very limited and with this game now in chaos I will use my time for other things. It is a pity since we had a good and well deviced start in the game. The QSC speaks for itself, but everyone on the team need to play seriously and the current situation speaks for itself what happens when someone breaks the teams trust. I hoe to be able to play next SGOTM with the core of this team but we need to make sure we are not stuck with yet another player that does not care about playing the game as seriously as others on the team.
TimBentley
Deity
0.5) get what we can (we should barely be able to get engineering for 122gpt) for gpt from Japan's allies so we don't have to pay for it. We should save money for knight upgrades, and hopefully we should get invention and gunpowder at a reduced cost (or no cost, in a similar situation) at some point.Kulko said:
A discussion for a new palace and FP would be good. The MGL in Zunguin could rush the FP in Isandhlwana. Beijing might be a palace location, although there's desert nearby.
Russia would give Rostov for peace; unfortunately it's basically undefendable. Signing peace with one ally causes peace with all (this also creates a 20-turn treaty with all, so there are rep hit possibilities), as I just tested, so Arabia seems like the best choice (2 workers currently)
TimBentley
Deity
I should be able to play within 24 hours.
TimBentley
Deity
Haven't gotten around to finishing yet, probably won't have time tomorrow, so I'll post a partial summary so you don't think I've disappeared or anything like that.
150(0): Abydos isn't likely to grow soon, so let's try to raze it; lose archer and horse retreats: 1hp short
6 settlers: wow
switch Bapedi to worker since it can't grow
switch scientist to taxman in Hlobane, increase shields since it can't grow
switch Intombe to knight
increase food in Tsingtao even though it doesn't matter
increase food and shields in Ngome
switch Tugela to knight
switch Umtata to knight
switch Umfolozi to knight
extra shields in Amatikulu for a turn
SpiceGirls and Zunguin are rather corrupt: switch to worker
switch Isandhlwana to rax, I'll rush it the turn before MGL rushes FP
extra gold in Zimbabwe won't reduce shields; switch to knight
attack archer on hill with horse, horse dies; risk attacking it (redlined) with impi, impi promotes, no damage
might as well get some workers since we'll sign peace so we can't capture: kill Ottoman horse and Egyptian spear guarding settlers
curragh's got nothing to see on other continent, so send it across the ocean, since some coast of our continent is unseen
Aggh! Units on automove! (and in the wrong direction)
lux to 10%
I'll send the 2 settlers in SpiceGirls to old Arabia
Isandhlwana will need a few units before war can be declared
IBT: Bapedi worker->worker
Ngome riots
Amatikulu rax->knight
China starts Sun Tzu's
130(1): rush rax in Isandhlwana for 68g
IBT: Bapedi worker->knight
Isandhlwana rax->FP, which is rushed
Ottomans start Sistine
110(2): upgrade horse in Isandhlwana, hopefully next turn war can be declared
IBT: Isandhlwana FP->knight
90(3): stop for now, should attack Japan
Here's the plan for Zimbabwe (a bit more shield wastage than I would like), let's hope it's comprehensible:
0(3): 9f, 25s (4fpt, 10spt)
1-2(4): 0f, 38s (5fpt, 10spt)
3(5): 0f, 61s (5fpt, 12spt): knight->settler
4(5): 5f, 0s (5fpt, 12spt)
5(6): 0f, 16s (5fpt, 14spt): settler->settler
6(4): 5f, 0s (5fpt, 13spt) work the goat
7(5): 0f, 17s (5fpt, 15spt): settler->knight; work the goat
8(3): 5f, 0s (5fpt, 8spt)
9-10(4): 0f, 12s (5fpt, 10spt)
11-12(5): 0f, 36s (5fpt, 15spt) work the goat; knight->settler
13-14(6): 0f, 0s (5fpt, 14spt) settler->settler?
15(4): 0f, 0s
150(0): Abydos isn't likely to grow soon, so let's try to raze it; lose archer and horse retreats: 1hp short
6 settlers: wow
switch Bapedi to worker since it can't grow
switch scientist to taxman in Hlobane, increase shields since it can't grow
switch Intombe to knight
increase food in Tsingtao even though it doesn't matter
increase food and shields in Ngome
switch Tugela to knight
switch Umtata to knight
switch Umfolozi to knight
extra shields in Amatikulu for a turn
SpiceGirls and Zunguin are rather corrupt: switch to worker
switch Isandhlwana to rax, I'll rush it the turn before MGL rushes FP
extra gold in Zimbabwe won't reduce shields; switch to knight
attack archer on hill with horse, horse dies; risk attacking it (redlined) with impi, impi promotes, no damage
might as well get some workers since we'll sign peace so we can't capture: kill Ottoman horse and Egyptian spear guarding settlers
curragh's got nothing to see on other continent, so send it across the ocean, since some coast of our continent is unseen
Aggh! Units on automove! (and in the wrong direction)
lux to 10%
I'll send the 2 settlers in SpiceGirls to old Arabia
Isandhlwana will need a few units before war can be declared
IBT: Bapedi worker->worker
Ngome riots
Amatikulu rax->knight
China starts Sun Tzu's
130(1): rush rax in Isandhlwana for 68g
IBT: Bapedi worker->knight
Isandhlwana rax->FP, which is rushed
Ottomans start Sistine
110(2): upgrade horse in Isandhlwana, hopefully next turn war can be declared
IBT: Isandhlwana FP->knight
90(3): stop for now, should attack Japan
Here's the plan for Zimbabwe (a bit more shield wastage than I would like), let's hope it's comprehensible:
0(3): 9f, 25s (4fpt, 10spt)
1-2(4): 0f, 38s (5fpt, 10spt)
3(5): 0f, 61s (5fpt, 12spt): knight->settler
4(5): 5f, 0s (5fpt, 12spt)
5(6): 0f, 16s (5fpt, 14spt): settler->settler
6(4): 5f, 0s (5fpt, 13spt) work the goat
7(5): 0f, 17s (5fpt, 15spt): settler->knight; work the goat
8(3): 5f, 0s (5fpt, 8spt)
9-10(4): 0f, 12s (5fpt, 10spt)
11-12(5): 0f, 36s (5fpt, 15spt) work the goat; knight->settler
13-14(6): 0f, 0s (5fpt, 14spt) settler->settler?
15(4): 0f, 0s
TimBentley
Deity
Sorry for the delay.
90(3) cont: get up to 147gpt
buy engineering, 33g from Korea for 124gpt
buy 14g from India for 1gpt
buy 6g from China for 1gpt
declare on Japan
Oh dear, Korea, India, and China have declared war on us!
Knight kills spear to autoraze Nagoya
no workers available from Arabia anymore; get 20g from Egypt for peace
oops: severed connection with spices for a turn: 20% lux and a couple of specialists
knight kills Japanese AC; horse kills Korean archer; horse dies, horse kills Japanese archer; horse kills Japanese sword
found New Zimbabwe
IBT: Japan loses AC, kills horse; China kills impi
Zimbabwe knight->settler
70(4): found Land Bridge2
lux to 10%, fire a couple of specialists
injured horse dies against Chinese horse
knight kills Chinese horse
horse dies against Japanese AC
upgrade horse
IBT: Japanese AC kills horse; horse kills Japanese AC
50(5): horse kills AC, knight dies attacking AC, horse kills Indian spear, gets 2 workers
IBT: Zimbabwe settler->settler
Ulundi knight->knight
30(6): knight kills AC, horse kills archer, horse dies to archer, horse kills archer, knight kills AC
upgrade horse
IBT: Hlobane knight->knight
Tsingtao rax->knight
Ibabanago rax->knight
SpiceGirls worker->rax
Isandhlwana expands
6 Indian horses ride into view
10(7): German city basically has filled up rest of Old Arabia (I don't want to provoke more warfare)
upgrade 2 horses
knight kills Indian horse; knight manages to do 1 damage to Indian horse on grass
IBT: Zimbabwe settler->knight
Bapedi knight->knight
Intombe knight->knight
Umtata knight->knight
10 AD(8): 3 knights kill 3 Indian horses; knight kills Chinese horse
upgrade horse
not sure where all the settlers heading east are going yet, so send Zimbabwe's settler north
IBT: Indian horse kills redlined knight
HorseTown knight->knight
Intombe riots (need to watch when new unit masked increased unhappiness from new citizen)
Golden Hill rax->knight
Zunguin worker->rax
Egypt starts Knights Templar
Vikings drop off settler on goats
tons of Korean archers by Isandhlwana
30(9): lux to 20%
settler will go SW so BG can be used
some irrigation needs to be changed to mines
knight kills Korean spear, elite horse kills archer, knight kills archer, elite horse kills archer, elite knight kills last Korean archer
2 knights kill 2 Indian horses; only enemy left in sight (other than in Shanghai) is Chinese horse
IBT: India drops off warrior/settler right next to future Molde
Tugela knight->knight
England, Germany start Knights Templar
Chinese horse ran away; now no hostiles in sight
50(10): there's 2 Japanese archers in W corner of their territory east of isthmus
left 2 settlers standing in jungle if you want to move them, another settler is sitting in Tsingtao
Notes: I'm assuming China has no iron, since Shanghai has no pikes
I think enemy reinforcements should just trickle in; you probably can capture Shanghai next turn
Shanghai does look like a good palace location; we'll want to get some more cities before moving the palace there, of course
a leader so we could get a knight army certainly would be nice
only one more horse to upgrade, but I'd still suggest no research, we should be able to get invention at a discount
90(3) cont: get up to 147gpt
buy engineering, 33g from Korea for 124gpt
buy 14g from India for 1gpt
buy 6g from China for 1gpt
declare on Japan
Oh dear, Korea, India, and China have declared war on us!
Knight kills spear to autoraze Nagoya
no workers available from Arabia anymore; get 20g from Egypt for peace
oops: severed connection with spices for a turn: 20% lux and a couple of specialists
knight kills Japanese AC; horse kills Korean archer; horse dies, horse kills Japanese archer; horse kills Japanese sword
found New Zimbabwe
IBT: Japan loses AC, kills horse; China kills impi
Zimbabwe knight->settler
70(4): found Land Bridge2
lux to 10%, fire a couple of specialists
injured horse dies against Chinese horse
knight kills Chinese horse
horse dies against Japanese AC
upgrade horse
IBT: Japanese AC kills horse; horse kills Japanese AC
50(5): horse kills AC, knight dies attacking AC, horse kills Indian spear, gets 2 workers
IBT: Zimbabwe settler->settler
Ulundi knight->knight
30(6): knight kills AC, horse kills archer, horse dies to archer, horse kills archer, knight kills AC
upgrade horse
IBT: Hlobane knight->knight
Tsingtao rax->knight
Ibabanago rax->knight
SpiceGirls worker->rax
Isandhlwana expands
6 Indian horses ride into view
10(7): German city basically has filled up rest of Old Arabia (I don't want to provoke more warfare)
upgrade 2 horses
knight kills Indian horse; knight manages to do 1 damage to Indian horse on grass
IBT: Zimbabwe settler->knight
Bapedi knight->knight
Intombe knight->knight
Umtata knight->knight
10 AD(8): 3 knights kill 3 Indian horses; knight kills Chinese horse
upgrade horse
not sure where all the settlers heading east are going yet, so send Zimbabwe's settler north
IBT: Indian horse kills redlined knight
HorseTown knight->knight
Intombe riots
(need to watch when new unit masked increased unhappiness from new citizen)Golden Hill rax->knight
Zunguin worker->rax
Egypt starts Knights Templar
Vikings drop off settler on goats
tons of Korean archers by Isandhlwana
30(9): lux to 20%
settler will go SW so BG can be used
some irrigation needs to be changed to mines
knight kills Korean spear, elite horse kills archer, knight kills archer, elite horse kills archer, elite knight kills last Korean archer
2 knights kill 2 Indian horses; only enemy left in sight (other than in Shanghai) is Chinese horse
IBT: India drops off warrior/settler right next to future Molde
Tugela knight->knight
England, Germany start Knights Templar
Chinese horse ran away; now no hostiles in sight
50(10): there's 2 Japanese archers in W corner of their territory east of isthmus
left 2 settlers standing in jungle if you want to move them, another settler is sitting in Tsingtao
Notes: I'm assuming China has no iron, since Shanghai has no pikes
I think enemy reinforcements should just trickle in; you probably can capture Shanghai next turn
Shanghai does look like a good palace location; we'll want to get some more cities before moving the palace there, of course
a leader so we could get a knight army certainly would be nice
only one more horse to upgrade, but I'd still suggest no research, we should be able to get invention at a discount
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