SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

[RRRaskolnikov]

I assume you worked the corn, not the clam for the first 10 turns since we didn't know Fishing yet. It sounds like from Fishing on, you worked clams (improved and non-improved) rather than the +3F corn to increase beakers.

yes exactly. Somehow I thought I was able to work the first clam without fishing (editing it out to avoid confusion).

 

[Mitchum]

@post 131

Is it not better to settle Orleans on the hill?
-save a wb for exploring.
-have a forest that can be chopped to enable 1-pop granary whip.

Capital won't be able to utilise all its food early game anyway so sharing is fine. It also sets the city up for a worker/settler pump with 2 seafood.

Settling on the hill would likely be better as you suggest. This save already has 2 exploring WBs, so it's possible to use those 45 hammers towards a granary or LH as opposed to a third exploring WB.

 

[Mitchum]

I've finished the comparison. I had to advance a few of the saves to see what science and output would be on T82 and when settler #3 could be on a galley ready to go. This is just a snapshot in time, so don't read too much into it. Turn for techs is the turn we see the popup, which is one turn later than when the log shows.

I could not tell when some of the exploring workboats were completed, so I put ?? until the owner of said test provides the information.

I have highlighted items in green that I think are noteworthy and should be considered when comparing saves.

As Rusten noted, #131 could have +45 into the granary right now had I settled on the GLHill instead, sharing a clam with the capital.

Spoiler :

Removed image. See post 170 for updated information.

 

[Mitchum]

I value exploration very highly. It makes it much easier to make the right decisions in the coming turns. Furthermore the sooner we find an AI the better (3 commerce trade routes).

I like the look of mdy's PH save.

I think this is the crux of the decision. If we decide that exploration is key, then either someone needs to run a test for SIP with earlier exploring WBs or settling on the PH is the way to go.

Although, I'd like to hear from mdy how early he got his exploring WBs out. He has a granary and LH already , so the dates for these explorers must have suffered somewhat... Also, his test has the least amount of research completed, which may or may not be an issue in this game.

 

[shyuhe]

Thanks for doing the work Mitchum I was going to do it tonight but you beat me to it! I'll do a few PH runs instead to add to the mix.

I also like the direction of mdy's save. It's a bit slower in the research department but with a size 5 cap, we can quickly whip out another settler if we find an amazing city spot. Like Rusten, I value exploration in this situation so I'd like to see the WB numbers too.

 

[Mitchum]

@ shyuhe

Since I've cleared your plate () and you're going to run a few tests, can I request that you run at least one PH test and one SIP test just to get the feel for the differences between the two. It's one thing to look at numbers and saves and another to feel how the game flows while you're playing it.

For your SIP test, see if you can get those exploring WBs out quicker than the current tests. It shouldn't be too hard to beat my T75...

 

[Mitchum]

@ bbp

I wanted to let you know that I did look at your save. The problem was that on your island, you had an extra Plains Hill mine and some other tiles to the north of your capital. Based on Dhoomstriker's latest test game and the fog gazing we've done, it "appears" that these tiles are not there. Therefore, your save would have been impossible to compare to the others.

EDIT: Did I miss any others?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

So, if I were to upload saved games from another test run, would uploading a saved game for each of the following turns do the trick?
Turn 58 2550 BC
Turn 79 2025 BC
Turn 82 1950 BC

I'm trying out a couple of Settle-on-the-Corn tests, since those seem to have been the most neglected in the testing. Hopefully, they will conclusively appear to be worse (or better is fine, too) than the other tests, so that it becomes easier to rule out some options.


Also, where am I supposed to settle City 2 when not settling-in-place? It sounds like settling on the island to the west, such that City 2 is "able to use the west-most Clam," appears to be the general consensus. Am I right?

It doesn't matter if this location doesn't get used in the real game... I'm more concerned about being consistent with other test runs, so that they are as comparable to each other as possible.

 

[Mitchum]

Yes, you're on the right track, Dhoom. For my comparison, I don't need the intermediate saves. They may come in handy for other comparisons though. Good luck.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Oh yeah, another "possibly tough" question:
So, which is better to build first in a capital City that has several improved squares? A Granary or a cheap Lighthouse?

Does City Size change the decision? For example, if you are Size 4+, would you weigh more heavily towards the Granary?

If you are barely at City Size 3 (with an empty Food box--my current situation), would you consider whipping the Lighthouse almost immediately and regrowing on 2 Netted, Lighthoused Clams? Or would it be better to grow to Size 4, whip the Granary, and only then build the Lighthouse?

What if you are at City Size 1 or 2?


Note that I'm not asking about City #2 since I don't think that this point matters in our initial testing and will likely be real-map-dependent... for example, if we end up settling City 2 on a nearby island for 3 Corn Resources and 0 Seafood Resources, then obviously a Lighthouse first wouldn't be the best choice.

 

[Mitchum]

I was wondering the same thing, but granary first seems to be the best in a city you plan to whip a lot. Although, it's hard to pass up the cheap lighthouse. Maybe you could do it both ways and let us know the outcome.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I was wondering the same thing, but granary first seems to be the best in a city you plan to whip a lot. Although, it's hard to pass up the cheap lighthouse. Maybe you could do it both ways and let us know the outcome.

I think that a lot might have to do with how long-term your outlook is and how much growth you plan to do after build the Granary versus halting growth while building a Worker or a Settler.

I decided to whip a Lighthouse, grow back to Size 4 from Size 2 without a Granary, and then began work on a Settler... in so doing, I was able to get Settler 3 (our initial Settler is Settler 1) out in time to board a Galley on the targeted turn of Turn 82, 1950 BC. Errr, I assume that this date was the target... maybe it was not?


Anyway, I only made it through one test round for settling on the Corn, but I recorded down all of my steps in my Excel sheet (on the second worksheet), so if it turns out to be any good, we can always reproduce it quite precisely later.

I went with a Worker first, but I want to try settling on the Corn with a Work Boat first, too... perhaps tomorrow. Attached are the 3 "checkpoint" saved games and my spreadsheet.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Although, I'd like to hear from mdy how early he got his exploring WBs out.

They were built on T 53 and T 58 respectively.

On edit:

In my test wb3 (~explorer #1) was built on T46. He can explore till T56 before he needs to net the third clams. Wb4 is built on T59. So this could be fine-tuned to have wb4 net the clams instead.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

@Mitchum: exploring wbs were the number 3 and 4, ie turn 56 and 78. The galley has some turns to explore as well between the settling of city 2 and city 3 (ie it can explore from t69 to t?).
I second the others: great work putting together those infos

@Dhoom: gra/lighthouse debate: no hard rule here imo, depends on number of seafoods compared to inland food tiles, and also current unhapiness.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I estimate we'll need a minimum of about 30 exploration-turns to scope out our inner circle of settling cities.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Nice info, though one of our wbs should be set to find AIs (what I mean is that once we have a good city 2 site, first wb might be better used this way than circling around our island during 30 turns)

 

[LowtherCastle]

I just looked at the REAL SAVE and the initial scouting could be less because we may have ocean to the E NE. It could easily be that we've been banished to the eastern most island of a series of "tiny" islands and dumped on the shoreline. In that case, SIP will be more centrally located for our inner circle of cities (if we REX an inner circle). Our city-distance maintenance costs will be correspondingly lower. Settling PH will only be comparable for distance costs if there are islands to the E/NE/SE.

EDIT: Did some testing and the difference in distance costs is negligible. Even at a societal pop29 with 7 cities, it's just -1gpt.

Spoiler :

Nice info, though one of our wbs should be set to find AIs (what I mean is that once we have a good city 2 site, first wb might be better used this way than circling around our island during 30 turns)

Two reasons why I emphasized minimum.
1. For our REX: We don't know how tiny the "tiny islands" are.
2. For meeting AIs: We don't know if we're isolated or whether we need scouts going in four directions, or something in between.

So the point of this info is strictly focused on early REX to hopefully aid our immediate decision making. We have to go on what we know and any obvious indicators we can see.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Oh yeah, another "possibly tough" question:
So, which is better to build first in a capital City that has several improved squares? A Granary or a cheap Lighthouse?

@Dhoom: gra/lighthouse debate: no hard rule here imo, depends on number of seafoods compared to inland food tiles, and also current unhapiness.

Obviously, the granary produces more food per tile, starting with the city center, but it costs twice as much. Otherwise, there are several factors to consider.
1. The timing of poprushes. We want to poprush as early and a often as possible.
2. Whether to 1pop, 2pop, or 3pop. SIP has lots of food, so much of its production comes from food-hammer overflow + 2popping a wkr or 3popping a settler.
3. The timing of other builds. Will we have the tech at the right time?
4. Tech-enabling builds: Pottery or Sailing first?
Pottery costs 133 base-beakers
Sailing costs 195 base-beakers

Since the early SIP production is whip-dependent, I went Pottery-Sailing to leverage the 2X food-hammers of the granary. Because PH gets a lot of hammers from improved hills and has slow research, mdy went Sailing-Pottery to prioritize the galley (I think).

-------------

One critical factor to remember is that poprushing gives you hammers sooner than working tiles, as long as you have enough population for your whips.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

4. Tech-enabling builds: Pottery or Sailing first?

Since the early SIP production is whip-dependent, I went Pottery-Sailing to leverage the 2X food-hammers of the granary.

PH start has no choice regarding tech path (since the galley is the limiting factor). I am not ready to delay city 2 after galley AND granary (this is emperor but still, we shouldn't moke the AI too much... beside previous SGOTMs have shown that timing of city 2 can mean a win or loose position)
Regarding SIP option, I would want to test it a bit longer:

-> we seem to focus on granary then settlers, how about trying settlers/workers then a library in capital? We have so much food that we will have to halt growth anyway before we get our hands on monarchy or some other happiness mean (either by not whipping settlers, or by hiring specialists).

@LC: by "nice info", I really meant "good job", I am now afraid you thought I was being sarcastic... I wasn't. I appreciate the details you are going into.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I ran two variants of PH. V1 is like mdy's up till ~T58. Then I focused on getting Orleans setled asap. V2 is similar but 1pops wb2 on T45 to get wb3 out sooner for scouting. V1 settles Orleans on T66. V2 on T68. V2 is 30f behind but 20h ahead and is 7 exploring-turns ahead. The two screenshots below give you an idea of what the scouting difference might look like.

Then I played both variants out to T79. I think they're clear improvements on mdy's first attempt. V1 is stronger as long as we know where we want to settle Orleans on ~T64-65.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

I will try to test SIP for an early exploration + settlement variant.