SGOTM 13 - TNT thread

[Keath]

nicem well played. How many turns are we planing/ turnset now?

We have discussed this in post #579 but in a nutshell we're doing 'organic' turnsets where the turnset ends with a build or a researched tech. I still believe that 10 to 15 turns is reasonable. But each player's turnset should have a defined endpoint.

A few thoughts:
Instead of axemen, we could build spies. They both are 52 hammers. Could we use them? They make good scouts, although a bit expensive but the other tasks they can do might be useful as we'd only need to build a few. The first one or two could hide in Nidaros then incite a riot or some other nasty deed. Where would we build the axes then? Elba? Golden City?

Or maybe build triremes? work boats? What works best for the Colossus build?

One south of the eastern iron might be a good city. We could time the mining of the iron to coincide a few turns after gifting or trading copper so we can continue building military. We do need copper for the Colossus, though.

How many more cities do we want to build? Does it depend more on available good sites or is there an optimum number for our game specs?

Is there a great idea out there?

I hope I'm not muddying the water with my ramblings. I'm thinking about something we might do that would separate us from the pack. That is the beautiful thing about this game - there are lots of ways to the same result.

 

[justjohn]

Whipping Galley/Trireme for 2 pop would give a nice overflow for the city building Colossus (with Forge already there). If that city is Corsica (which has 11 base production), then:

Build 1 turn: 11*1.25 = 13 prod
2-pop whip: 2*45*1.25 = 112 p
Build and finish: 11*1.25 = 13 p
Total: 138 prod = 75 for unit + 63 "overflow"
Overflow: 63/1.25 = 50
Build Colossus: (50+11)*2.25 = 137 prod

Using two such whips: 274 prod, only 101 left = 5 turns normal build (4 if we had some overflow when starting on Colossus)

Whipping Galleys/Triremes might not be as good as Axes when we want to go to war, but we do need some of them, and I think this is our best and fastest way to get the Colossus. Alternatively in Elba:

Build 1 turn: 8*1.25 = 10 prod
2-pop whip: 2*45*1.25 = 112 p
Build and finish: 8*1.25 = 10 p
Total: 132 prod = 75 for unit + 57 "overflow"
Overflow: 57/1.25 = 45
Build Colossus: (45+8)*2.25 = 119 prod

Using two such whips: 238 prod, 137 left = 8 turns normal build
Using three such whips: 357 prod, only 18 left = 1 turns normal build

In either case we need to build/whip a Forge first. The main benefit using Elba is faster regrowth, making it easier to get more whips in a short time (not counting happiness problems that requires more exact calculations). The one not building Colossus could build Moai, or just Axes all the time.

-jj-

 

[Keath]

An axe and a spy are the same cost. Does anyone have experience in using spies to soften up an attack? Would an entrenched spy do as much, less or more damage than an axe? I'm thinking this because a spy could do a little scouting and surveillance and then, when we're ready to attack, incite a riot or damage defences or some such fun stuff? And does having a barracks result in a veteran spy? Sorry, I should know this stuff but I've never done too much with spies.

Would an up-to-date test game be useful? I've been trying to learn how to build these facsimiles but always seem to mess something up and the later the game the more complicated it gets. I think it's a good idea, even if there are 2 or 3 different ones doing the testing. How accurate should they be?

@jj - this looks good for the Colossus build. We can use many triremes and galleys, for sure.

When would we gift or trade the copper to build some warriors - after the Colossus build? Before our declaration on Ragnar or after?

 

[dima42]

@ dima - how does the whip-wonderfail economy work? Do we need warriors for HR and military happiness? How many? Would we have funds to upgrade those warriors or would we bother?

Ragnar is in WHEOOHRN. Would/could he target us even at pleased? How do we handle the diplomacy when we find out who he's after?

Some warriors can be useful, but not as important here because of the number of happy resources. We can look at what warriors
Usually no upgrading.

Yes, he could, but the probability is very low. I vaguely recall AI does a computation of (constant/(distance between capitals)+numberofsharedtiles)*multiplier, where the multiplier is based on relation (2 for cautious, 4 for annoyed? something like that. Then weighs those to get a percentage. Don't quote me on that, as my memory is fuzzy and I don't have time to look it up.

Handling diplomacy is easy. We'll get bonus points with whom he declares on. If they ask to declare on him, we do (even if we're not quite ready to attack just yet, but within a few turns of being able to do so. this is a little trickier if we don't have triremes, then we have to think.)

I think spy is worth it for capital but not other attacks? Definitely no expert here; I usually don't use spies until medieval and later attacks. Spies don't get promotions from barracks. Scout is much better than spy for scouting because of no risk of getting caught. (Although I don't know how actively spies get caught on Emperor)

 

[dima42]

oh, and definitely agree on galleys/triremes for colossus city. but don't overrate our need for naval units past the first war: I suspect this will be largely a land-based invasion game. (with sea units used for speeding up movement in some cases)

 

[enKage]

Ok, take this together

Forge + Colosus in Elbe, with whipping triremes to make it faster. Should I finish Library (whip) first?
Moai -> which city?
Techs -> ?
Trading techs -> I will not trade Currency What to do if anyone demands it? Always refuse?
(just a question - can I save game and post it during negotiaions, to get rid of "you refused our demands" penalty?)

Settling cities - eastern iron - ok
City for furs - setlle directly on southern furs for imeddaite happy bonus?

--
I won't trade copper away until collosus is ready.

--

Anything suprising -> saving and posting game.

 

[justjohn]

I've tried to calculate building Colossus in Elba vs Corsica. If my math is correct, we can build Colossus in Elba in 21 turns (which includes 3 whips, one Forge and two Galleys) or in Corsica in 20 turns (only 2 whips, one Forge and one Galley). I think I prefer Elba, even though this means wasting the production that is invested in Lib and WB (8 each). I think I could have redirected one of these into the Forge (but did not think about it at the time), which I regret now. That would have made Colossus in Elba 1 turn faster.

What do you think?

One benefit of building Colossus in Elba, is that we can produce Axes in Corsica, which has a Barracks. We will end up with 5 Galleys (or 4 Galley + 1 Trireme if we wish), which means we can land a large Army outside Nidaros when the time comes. Oh, and I think the westward exploring Galley should try to establish coastal trade route with Willem and then return to transporation duty.

Didn't enkage say he wanted to play today? He may of course, but at the moment I'm not sure if we have decided how to proceed. Or do you feel confident enkage?

-jj-

EDIT: Ah, crosspost with enkage, but questions remain.

 

[dima42]

Whipping an axe into the forge is also to be considered.

 

[dima42]

Nope, did the math, whipping axe into forge is bad. More details coming.

 

[justjohn]

Whipping an axe into the forge is also to be considered.

I can look into it. The plan that gave me 20 and 21 turns both included a 3-pop whip of Forge. Whipping an Axe might speed up the Forge build, but will leave the city with 1 less pop (assume we then get a 2-pop whip of the Forge) and 1 more unhappiness. For Corsica that will not be an option. The problem with Corsica is that it simply grows too slowly, and the 20 turn suggestion already has Corsica at size 3 or 4 underway (so a smaller size means less normal production) and leaves Corsica as a size 2 city at the end (meaning the last Galley whip would be impossible if Corsica was 1 smaller size).

EDIT: Crosspost, and I guess we have the same conclusion.

 

[dima42]

Sorry, I don't actually have time for details, but basically I agree with 3-pop whipping forge in Elba. Also switch the hill in Elba to coast for the next two turns so that you can get some food overflow into the forge (delays settler by 1 turn but we don't care I think). Also grow Elba fast, not caring about unhappy.

And I think whipping axes into Moai in Corsica.

 

[justjohn]

Sorry, I don't actually have time for details, but basically I agree with 3-pop whipping forge in Elba. Also switch the hill in Elba to coast for the next two turns so that you can get some food overflow into the forge (delays settler by 1 turn but we don't care I think). Also grow Elba fast, not caring about unhappy.

Good idea delaying the Settler 1 turn. That will probably get us Colossus in 20 turns in Elba (details pending).

And I think whipping axes into Moai in Corsica.

Or should we simply build and whip Axes into other Axes? It depend on how fast we want our army ready. Corsice will not be able to whip many Axes anyway due to slow growth. Not more than 1 every 10 turns at least.

 

[Keath]

Just a couple of questions about the math for all of us to understand these techniques. First, I assume your calculations are done on paper, right?

Whipping Galley/Trireme for 2 pop would give a nice overflow for the city building Colossus (with Forge already there). If that city is Corsica (which has 11 base production), then:

Build 1 turn: 11*1.25 = 13 prod

Is the 1.25 for the forge?

2-pop whip: 2*45*1.25 = 112 p
Build and finish: 11*1.25 = 13 p
Total: 138 prod = 75 for unit + 63 "overflow"
Overflow: 63/1.25 = 50
Build Colossus: (50+11)*2.25 = 137 prod

The 45 is the number of hammers for a whipped pop on epic?
Why do you divide by 1.25 for the overflow?

@enKage - I hope we haven't messed up your game-time window but I think we need a little more discussion on builds, tech to build, city builds and the two city settlement placement. It's great if your plan is well defined and you have a clear stopping point, say the building of the Colossus. That would be about 20 turns if you finish Elba's settler and build Colossus in Elba (if that's what we decide). Is that about the right turn length for you? You can always plan for less or stop at some point before the Colossus, of course.

And definitely stop for anything unusual that we could all comment on -- post the save and/or a screenshot in such a case.

"If you're not sure, post."

More to come....

 

[justjohn]

Good idea delaying the Settler 1 turn. That will probably get us Colossus in 20 turns in Elba (details pending).

Strike that. Delaying the Settler (converting food to production) is often a good idea, but here we want to convert food to production by whipping later, and it turns out that delaying the Settler, delays our growth (and hence production by whipping) more than we get by delaying the Settler. Unless my math is wrong. Care to doublecheck dima?

 

[justjohn]

Just a couple of questions about the math for all of us to understand these techniques. First, I assume your calculations are done on paper, right? Is the 1.25 for the forge?

Yes to both.

The 45 is the number of hammers for a whipped pop on epic?
Why do you divide by 1.25 for the overflow?

Yes, we get 30*1.5 = 45 for each shipped whipped pop on epic speed.

The game divides by 1.25 due to the Forge. The overflow is then placed into the production "queue" and will be multiplied by 1.25 again when it is moved into the production chamber of the next item being built. (Here it is multiplied by 2.25 instead since we get another +100% for colossus with copper.) If it had not been done this way, we would get the 25% bonus from the Forge twice (first from the whip making the overflow, then again on the next item). But the way it is done we often loose 1 production of the overflow due to rounding effects.

 

[Keath]

^^ Thanks, jj.

One question: "If we had a fairly accurate test game, how many players would use it to do some testing? At first, we, me included, were making test games and using them with good effect, methinks. But lately there's been no updates. I think a good map or two would pay dividends.

If enough people are into testing, I would make an attempt to build one unless there's someone who can quickly build one. I am new at it but prepared to give it a whirl.

Edit: Actually I was waiting for a full map to use so that the test game wouldn't have to be edited after every turnset but I do think it would be useful now. If you agree, please post an affirmative.

 

[enKage]

to many numbers! Of course I'm confused! I'm only monarch player

But I will try not to loose to many turns

So should I start ?

 

[Keath]

to many numbers! Of course I'm confused! I'm only monarch player

But I will try not to loose to many turns

So should I start ?

Do you have a clear idea of what your goals are and how you will achieve them? I'd like a plan that:
1. lists each city and what builds will occur.
2. note any micro-management necessary.
3. what exploration you will do.
4. what events would you stop/post. eg. someone declares war or something totally not in the plan occurs.

If you could post an updated plan, we all could have a look and give you the go ahead. How many turns would you feel comfortable finishing?

 

[dima42]

I think that the 5 whips in Elba here might actually be good for a couple reasons:

*Our happy cap increases in 4 turns (gold), 5 turns (fur), 9 turns (initial unhappy),
with forge, with spices, with dyes, 24 turns (first whip unhappy). this is 7 happycap increase in the next 24 turns. Every turn of population above 5 (well, I guess 6 if we're running an engineer) is more wasteful than every turn at pop4. we will still have a happycap of 7 in 24 turns, which is only limiting in raising population for big whips, which isn't that useful imo. this, along with the additional hr military police bonus to come, seems to make 1-pop whipping efficient in this particular case.

thoughts?

Sample math:

Spoiler :

Assume right now is turn 0, T0. All production counted on end of turn, eg T0 production is production at end of T0. I didn't do math to precise numbers; everything is +/- a couple but not more than that, cause I don't have civ on this computer and can't check the numbers. "BT5" means "beginning of turn 5"

Assume Current Elba:
*pop 5, 9 turns on happycap
*25/45 food stored
*working 3 5-foods and 2 1f3h's: 8hpt, 19fpt; working 3 5-foods and 2 coasts, 21fpt, 2 hpt

General idea: 2-turn build and 1-pop whip the settler, 3-pop whip forge, 1-pop whip scout, 2-pop whip galley. oveflow settler into forge, everything else into colossus.
Results:

T1: 46 hammer overflow

BT2: 46/180 on forge, 25/43 food, +10 fpt, 5 hpt, pop 4, happycap 4
T2, T3: build forge, grow to size 5

BT4: 56/180 on forge, 24/45 food, +9 fpt, 8hpt, pop 5, happycap 5 (thanks to gold)
T4, T5, T6, T7: build forge.

BT8: (56+8*4)=88/180 on forge. 38/47 food @ pop 6, happycap 6 (thanks to fur)
3-pop whip forge!

BT9: Elba @ pop 4, 31/43 food, 43*2=86 overflow into Colossus. Work 3x 5f, 1x1f3h
T9: build colossus

BT10: 92/375 on Colossus, 41/43 food. switch to scout.

BT11: 6/22 on scout, 30/45 food. still build scout, this time with 8*1.25=10hpt

BT12: 16/22 on scout, 39/45 food.
T12: 1-pop whip scout.

BT13: 28/45 food. switch build to colossus.
T13: organic build of colossus

BT14: 92+((56-6+5+8)/56*45)*2.25 = 205/375 on colossus, 37/45 food
T14: switch to galley

BT15: 6/75 on galley, 24/47 food, pop 6, 3 whip unhappy.
T5: organic build of galley

BT16: 16/75 on galley, 33/47 food
T16: 2-pop whip galley

BT17: 42/43 food. switch build to colossus
T17: organic build of colossus

BT18: 205+119 = 318/375 on colossus, 30/45 food.
T18: 2-pop whip of colossus

BT19: colossus done

 

[enKage]

Do you have a clear idea of what your goals are and how you will achieve them? I'd like a plan that:
1. lists each city and what builds will occur.
2. note any micro-management necessary.
3. what exploration you will do.
4. what events would you stop/post. eg. someone declares war or something totally not in the plan occurs.

If you could post an updated plan, we all could have a look and give you the go ahead. How many turns would you feel comfortable finishing?

I have clear idea waht are the goals.


Except where exactly to settle nest cities. I want to settle ASAP on the northern island with two fues, diractly on the southern fur. Is it ok to everyone or should I settle that island on another tile?


Playing friday evening or night CET
Everyone's invited to be online on chat :]