SGOTM 13 - TNT thread

My suggestions are basically entirely going to be to "build military" :p.

So:

Elba: no on GL
Rheims: military
Paris: switch to military, finish library later
City build: neither, I think, since we don't have a settler off hand
Lyons: ok, I guess we should finish this library. But then military :p.

Warriors for MP but only after finishing army to kill Ragnar

More detailed/thoughtful post hopefully in next 48 hours.
 
dima42 said:
My suggestions are basically entirely going to be to "build military" :p.

So:

Elba: no on GL
Rheims: military
Paris: switch to military, finish library later
City build: neither, I think, since we don't have a settler off hand
Lyons: ok, I guess we should finish this library. But then military :p.

Warriors for MP but only after finishing army to kill Ragnar

More detailed/thoughtful post hopefully in next 48 hours.
Click to expand...
Building military is what I think, too, but I dislike wasting production. :cry: We have only one rax in Corsica. Is there another city where vet units could work well? As far as warriors go, is it possible to build or capture an inland city and build them there as you say, post-Ragnar?

Ragnar has horses so a spear in each stack? For the spies, they should be built right away and occupy Nidaros, sleep for ?? number of turns to get the maximum chance for success. This much I know, but how many turns? :confused:
 
Yeah, one spear in each stack. (And each stack needs a fair number of swords).
Sleep 5 turns for maximum discount.
I don't think we should be spending the time to build a barracks.

Basically, here's the situation: we need to as quickly as possible conquer/dominate the world. (I think domination is a little more successful in this geography, but I'm not positive. It might depend on religion spread situation later in the game.)

The only time we should not be building units is under fear of
a)going broke
b)technologically behind, so we can't build decent units

Waging technologically-behind war is not all that difficult on Emperor, so that shouldn't be as big of a concern -- by the time that we are technologically behind, we should have conquered ~3 AI's, and as a result have way more production power than anyone else.

Remember: the earlier we have units, the earlier we have AI cities, and as a result, the earlier we have more units. I'm not even sure of the wisdom of building granaries before axes/swords in the new cities here! After we are done building an initial set of units for Ragnar, we will have a bunch of downtime in which we can build all these silly "building" things.

We should not be in a big need for research here.The last possible technologies we will want in this game are Rifling/Steel. (And it's much more likely that we will only want one of the two; there's an off-chance we will need neither. We will probably trade for Astro since AI will prioritize it here and transporting rifles by galleys is obnoxiously slow.)

Here is what /will/ slow down our conquest:

*Not starting early enough. It's a big map, and we will need to navigate a lot of it on slow ships. Our initial Ragnar army, upgraded to macemen, should still be enough to join forces with some catapults to take out a weak AI. (Then we will need macemen reinforcements for the third/fourth AI's.)
*Running out of money to upgrade. There will be two times we need upgrade money: for the survivors of the Ragnar war, and when we need to turn our maces into rifles. We may be able to sell techs efficiently enough for this, but it's not obvious.
*Running out of money to support army/cities. This is mostly a courthouse-whipping issue and grabbing the GLH sooner rather than later.

In terms of quickness of research, it seems to me like we care about two things:
*When we get CS (and can trade for Machinery from Willem) and enough money to upgrade our army.
*When we get Rifling (this is less important).

Everything in between is kind of useless (we're probably not going to care about any infrastructure buildings that we can't already build except for courthouses, and we'll have those well in time.)

It's not even entirely obvious to me we care about the Rifles, but it's probably way too risky to turn off research at CS (that said, we can probably turn it off for a while after CS/Music since we don't want Paper before we can pop Education).

Make sure to not lose the music race. This might mean not trading away Aesthetics until we're happy to spend time researching music. The great artist is astoundingly useful for domination purposes.

I think Heroic epic (In Corsica, I assume) as soon as we have the level 4 unit. Coincides pretty nicely with our infrastructure-building period.

Stifling Willem might make sense as it will probably give us time to pop rifling from liberalism.

So, in short: here's what I think the long-term plan is:

1. Build an army at expense of anything.
Tech: CoL? -> Drama -> Music -> CS, trade for Calendar/Machinery, pop Philosophy with first scientist, switch to Pacifism and put some religion in the GL/scientist city (probably Elba). Maybe don't switch to Bureaucracy, but I'm not sure on that yet. Maybe build Palace in Corsica and switch to Bureaucracy? I'm really not sure.

Wonders:
GL in Elba after building an army.
Globe Theater somewhere with a lot of food
Moai Statues and Heroic Epic in Corsica

I guess this is aiming for a ~1600ad conquest.

Sorry Keath, no real micro thoughts here, I might jot those down later.
 
dima42 said:
Wonders:
GL in Elba after building an army.
Globe Theater somewhere with a lot of food
Moai Statues and Heroic Epic in Corsica

I guess this is aiming for a ~1600ad conquest.

Sorry Keath, no real micro thoughts here, I might jot those down later.
Click to expand...

I agree, we have esthetics ahaed and marble, so GL can wait
Globe Theatre --> Paris

I will add SoZ, but AI prioritises it high, so sooner or later we will get it :]

As for conquest
I agree sooner we start, the better
Willem is not a backstabber, we can be pretty safe from the site of Vicky as well, so we can throw all our forces to Ragnar.
As for Economy - Isabel is jut one island further and she can be easily taken next with all her shrines :ninja: :]

But still - I will go to at least one market :) to generate GMerchants
 
A couple of questions for the team:

1. Construction or CoL? I suggest research to 0% for now gaining 69 comm/turn.
2. Building military and ferrying units to Lens? and Rheims for amphibious attack?
3. Will we want workers (#??) to build jungle roads from Lens south?
4. We presently have three trireme, one exploring east.
5. We have four galleys - one exploring west.

I suggest we keep the eastern trireme and the western galley exploring even though we won't be first to circumnavigate. We need to find the GLH and get a map of our enemies locations.

Anyone with some ideas, I'll be around for the day and would like to set a time to play. We do need to keep our pace...

Lookin' good, team! :cool:
 
1. I don't have a strong preference on research. To me, it is a tossup between Drama/Construction, with CoL/Compass being also possible choices.
2. Yes
3. I don't think so. The army doesn't need to start at Lens, and we can send the earlier troops in that direction, so they will get to Ragnar's borders same time the amphibious army does.
4. That's plenty
5. That's plenty

Would love to hear from metra/fizban/jj, because I suspect they know many things I don't.
 
dima42 said:
1. I don't have a strong preference on research. To me, it is a tossup between Drama/Construction, with CoL/Compass being also possible choices.
2. Yes
3. I don't think so. The army doesn't need to start at Lens, and we can send the earlier troops in that direction, so they will get to Ragnar's borders same time the amphibious army does.
4. That's plenty
5. That's plenty

Would love to hear from metra/fizban/jj, because I suspect they know many things I don't.
Click to expand...
Yes, It would be good to hear from the war department. :ninja: In the meantime, I have a draft of what I would do. Sorry, no MM magic here, yet. :p

THE PLAN

Elba switch build to sword in 4 turns.

Corsica
Build Galley o/f into Moai
Build Axe for 1 turn then 2 pop whip into Moai
Build 1 turn Moai then Sword for 2 turns to regain pop
2 pop whip sword
Finish Moai building units and whipping.
Build units

Elba has 81% chance of prophet in 10 turns. Settle in Elba?

Orleans -- Axeman - 41/52 - -> axeman


Lyons 2 pop whip library --> axe --> axe



Rheims pop 4 -- Archer (68/37) -- whipped into spy


Paris pop 4 -- Library 31/135 I figure this library should be built as the border expansion will include clams and this is a natural for the Globe Theatre.


Tours -- cancel Granary (18/90) - -> swords/axes

Marseilles 1 pop Lighthouse (40/90) - ->axe

Lens pop 1 -- build Monument (5/45) in 8 turns then spy otherwise we can't get the fish for some growth.

Tech to 0% decide when possible for 100% Construction or CoL. I'd consider playing tomorrow but would like to hear from those interested. :)
 
As for Great person - we should run engineer in Paris, to lower Great prophet chances, Engineer or merchant will be better (if we finish library, can also run scientists).

If it happenes we get Great prophet - I will bulb teology for Theocracy - it can make huge difference even if Spanish were first to Theo
 
^^Super! I know my 'in-depth' won't be as deep. :mischief: For Lens -- could we use the worker in the nearby galley to chop the hill into the monument? Maybe continue with a mine. Then we have the workboat and with the fish and the mined hill, it would be a much more productive city.

enKage mentions Theocracy. Will religion play any role in our game? At the present we have none. Therefore, run an engineer in Elba?
 
Here is a possible micro plan. It's going to be worthless when Ragnar declares on us on turn3 of your turnset :p.

Again, all turn numbers are as of start of turn. Also, I didn't take care to make the numbers are actually exact; they are just rough estimates I made in my head. So they will not match up exactly.


Revolt to HR turn 0, as we're already at happycaps in at least one city. Also, check for trades for calendar and luxury resources every turn.

Elba:

Keath says: switch build to sword in 4 turns (I assume you mean switch now, finish in 4 turns)

This is good. You're getting 36 hammers on the first turn, then 10 hammers/turn at pop 5 and 12 hammers/turn at pop6 (run an engineer at pop6, not at pop5).

Sword1 started T1, done T5 (36+10+12+12 hammers --> 10 overflow)
Sword2 started T5, done T10 (22+12+12+12+12 --> 10 overflow)
Galley1 started T10, done T12 (micro so that you have <=19 hammers, 2-pop whip)
Sword3 started T12, done T14

Corsica
Keath says:
Build Galley o/f into Moai
Build Axe for 1 turn then 2 pop whip into Moai
Build 1 turn Moai then Sword for 2 turns to regain pop
2 pop whip sword
Finish Moai building units and whipping.
Build units

I agree until after the axe whip:

Moai shields: 196 already, 21*2=42 from T1, (43+11+11)*2=108 from Axe whip turn --> 368 on Moai --> build Moai organically for another turn to finish, overflow into sword. Production is then 13 @ pop5, 14 @pop6, 15@pop7

Results: Galley1 T1, Axe1 T4, Moai T6, Sword1 T12, Sword2 T14 (2-pop whip into sword something; not military)


Orleans:
Keath says: Axeman - 41/52 - -> axeman

Yep.

Axe1 T7, Axe2 T9 (2-pop whip), Axe3 T12 (from overflow), then worker


Lyons:
Keath says: 2 pop whip library --> axe --> axe

I've changed my mind on this. I think axes/swords come before library, since we're not going to be losing the production, and we need the army earlier.

So my advice is 2-pop whipped sword-> organic archer -> 2-pop whipped spear--> library

So sword T2, Archer T5, spear1 T7 (2-pop whipped), Axe1 T10 (from overflow) -> library

Rheims pop 4 -- Archer (68/37) -- whipped into spy

Switch micro to spices from cottage.

So archer T1, spy T8, galley1 T12 (2-pop whip with max overflow), sword2 T16, sword3 T18 (done by now because of chops done sometime earlier -- chop spices and build plantation first, I think; we should have calendar by the time worker's done chopping)


Paris pop 4 -- Library 31/135 I figure this library should be built as the border expansion will include clams and this is a natural for the Globe Theatre.

Hmm, ok. This place has like no hammers anyway, so it's not a great military production center.
3-pop whip library (done T7 I think, be careful with the shields micro so you can still 3-pop whip), overflow into spear1, organically finish spear1 on T9, start sword1 on T9, 2-pop whip sword1 (done T14), overflow into whatever you feel like.

Tours -- cancel Granary (18/90) - -> swords/axes

I don't think this is necessary after all. So I would 2-pop whip granary into sword (asap rather than max overflow), then 2-pop whip sword.

So Granary (T14), Sword1 (T16)


Marseilles 1 pop Lighthouse (40/90) - ->axe

I think Granary->wb in Marseilles. It's pretty far so non-ideal for troop building, and it needs the growth.

Lens pop 1 -- build Monument (5/45) in 8 turns then spy otherwise we can't get the fish for some growth.

Yeah, this is good. Worker chops spy, then improves 1 hill, then builds roads (time this so that the roads are done on time). Build infrastructure here after the spy.

Tech to 0% decide when possible for 100% Construction or CoL. I'd consider playing tomorrow but would like to hear from those interested.

--> After more thought, I like the Drama tech here. We should be able to trade for both construction and CoL before we need it. And we very much should be trying to win the music race (and doing so easily), because a great artist is really big for domination wins.


Elba has 81% chance of prophet in 10 turns. Settle in Elba?
--> if settling, settle in Corsica. I like the settle, because I think by the time our next wave of units needing promotions comes out (cats don't really need promotions badly), we'll probably have theocracy anyway.


If we get lucky and pop engineer/merchant instead, I think save merchant for CoL and maybe save engineer for replaceable parts?


---

Ok, so if you followed something like the above, you've ended up with some units. I'll call units from Elba Axe1E, from Corsica Axe1C, etc.

So done units, with turns, are:
Axe0Le (axe already in Lens) -mainland
Axe0Ly (axe already in Lyons) - mainland group through orleans
Sword1E (T5) - mainland
Sword2E (T10) -amph1
Sword3E (T14) -amph2
Axe1C (T4) - mainland group through orleans
Sword1C (T12) -amph1
Sword2C (T14) -amph2
Sword1Ly (T2) -amph3
Spear1Ly (T7) -amph3
Axe1O (T7) - mainland group
Axe2O (T9) - amph5 (later reinforcement)
Axe3O (T12) - amph5 (later reinforcement)
Spy1R (T8)
Galley1R (T12) -check
Sword1R (T16) -amph4
Sword2R (T18) - amph4
SpearP (T9) - mainland group
Sword1P (T14) - mainland group
Spy1Le (T10)
//
9 swords, 6 axes, 2 spears, 2 spies. That Ragnar dude is going down.

We will have five galleys: the North Galley, the West Galley, the Corsica Galley (to be done in corsica this turn), the Rheims Galley (to be produced T12) and the Elba Galley (to be produced T15)

North Galley: drops off worker at Orleans, picks up Sword1E, drops off at Orleans, picks up Sword1C, Sword2E, able to land land 1N of Nidaros on T23; this is group amph1

West Galley: picks up units from Orleans, delivers to Lens continuously. Also picks up spy made by Rheims (who travels by land north so it can be picked up easier), as well as transports a worker from orleans to rheims (without spending a turn). The first trip begins on T9, drops off on T12, picks up on T15, drops off on T18, picks up on T21, ferries a couple more axes for reinforcements to be in vikingland by about T26

Corsica Galley: ferries Axe0L, Axe1C to Orleans. (unhappiness in Lyons is ok for a turn or two there). ferries Sword1Ly, Spear1Ly (able to land 1N of Nidaros on T23; group amph3)

Rheims Galley: picks up Spear1P, Sword1P, drops them off next to Lens, comes back to Rheims to pick up Sword1R, Sword2R, able to land 1N of Nidaros on T23 (group amph4)

Elba Galley: picks up Sword2C, Sword3E, goes towards Nidaros (able to land both 1N of Nidaros on T23; this is group amph2)
 
Keath said:
^^Super! I know my 'in-depth' won't be as deep. :mischief: For Lens -- could we use the worker in the nearby galley to chop the hill into the monument? Maybe continue with a mine. Then we have the workboat and with the fish and the mined hill, it would be a much more productive city.

enKage mentions Theocracy. Will religion play any role in our game? At the present we have none. Therefore, run an engineer in Elba?
Click to expand...

No role of religion, but it happens judaism (or other willems religion) spreads, i will definitely convert to it and adopt theocracy
 
dima42 said:
Hmm, the above analysis ignored that we had Tours units. So how about not building units there? :p
Click to expand...
I don't quite understand. :crazyeye: What are you suggesting?

Continue granary?

I will be posting a plan and will play later today in about 6 hours. Any further ideas, team?

Edit: What about waiting until turn 1 to revolt allowing galley build in Corsica?Nah, Turn 0, for sure.... :p
 
Here is the first turn plan gleaned from dima's earlier post:

If Ragnar declares on us I’ll stop and post.

Turn 0:
Revolt to HR. Set research to Drama at 0%. Check for trades/luxury resources.

Elba:
Switch build to sword.

Corsica:
Galley built - -> overflow to Moai

Orleans:
Axeman - 41/52 - -> axeman

Lyons:
Switch build to sword

Rheims:
Archer (68/37) -- whipped into spy
Switch micro to spices from cottage.

Paris:
Library 31/135

Tours:
Granary (18/90) - ->

Marseilles:
1 pop Lighthouse (40/90) - ->granary

Lens:
pop 1 -- build Monument (5/45)
 
Re: Tours, yeah, building granary to begin with, but also not whipping it into any military (and instead probably something like a workboat or buildings) since the military seems to come too late and difficult to transport to be of much use.

Re: other things, this is what I meant. But feel free to play with it :). It's your turnset, after all. For instance, moving around some of the galley/sword order may work out advantageously.

But yeah, revolt should probably happen on T0. Not sure of how the whipping mechanic works with revolt though. Maybe whip before revolting to be on the safe side?
 
One question -- I was able to trade furs for dyes with Willem. Should I speed up on whipping to match the greater happy cap?

So far nothing else of importance....
 
T0 - 155bc
Set cities to builds:
Whip lh in Marseilles --> Granary
Set research to Drama at 0%
Revolt to HR
Trade dyes for furs to Willem
-end turn-

-IT-
Barb galley appears next to northern galley

T1 - 140 bc
anarchy over
move ships, continue exploration
Willem will trade calendar - no deal -
-end turn-

-IT-
barb galley follows our galley
barb axe appears in jungle south of Lens

T2 - 125 bc
start chop on Lens hill
whip sword in Lyons
Elba worker starts workshop
-end turn-

IT
Sword in Lyons --> Archer
Paris pop5
Elba pop6

T3 - 110 bc
Hire engineer in Elba -- GP in 5 turns
Everyone is pleased with us except Isabella at cautious
Cathy is worst enemy of Isabella
Ragnar is worst enemy of Joao
Joao is worst enemy of Cathy and Ragnar
Jungle axe hides :)

IT

T4 - 65 bc
Archer --> Spear in Lyons
Rush spy --> Galley in Elba
Rush axe --> sword in Orleans
Rush lighthouse --> work boat in Paris
Set research to Drama in 4 turns at 100%
As Joao is worst enemy of Cathy I trade Currency to Joao for Calendar

IT
We defeat barb galley

T5 50 bc
2pop Lib --> spear in Lyons
Pop axe --> Moai in Corsica
3pop Library --> galley in Elba
Pop sword in Orleans --> sword

IT
We get Great Merchant in Elba!

At this point I realize I made a dumb move with the library build. I thought it was a 2 pop. :blush:

Please post any comments or ideas.

- keath
 
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