SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

[frogdude]

However I wouldn't mind changing the warrior scouting plans to see more water. I think we might be missing some important seafood.

There may be sense in that case in sending Warrior A 4 squares NE, rather than 3 squares NE & then NW. That will allow us a good look at the coast NE of stone which could be important in stone city placement.

The Warrior B amendment to send him more coastal sounded good. I think his path is currently something like: NW-SW-SW-W-SW-NW. That gets us a better look at the western coasts.

 

[bcool]

Planning beyond 2 settlers
I think we will need to adapt to events by the time we get to 2 settlers. There is a real need for an archer probably or at least a warrior or 2 to fogbust by then.

warrior scouting
I was think more along the lines of scouting the water to the SE,S, and SW when I suggested the scouting plans be changed. There are several tiles that could have seafood that would might change where we place our initial cities.

I think we have to send warriors out to try and meet AI, but maybe the 3rd warrior could be diverted to look at least some of that water.

 

[frogdude]

Wait I am testing that out.

Well, after second settler, we can get another warrior in one turn, but I prefer invest overflowing into another worker in four turns. Anyone disagreeing? The warrior #3 has enough time to investigate stone site before settling or does people find better to scout north more before returning to stone for protecting the settler?

By the time this decision comes to hand there are many unknowns. If for instance, Warrior A discovers water or some other impenetrable barrier to the north, he will then come back and we will have less pressing need of more military units for the purposes of exploring. On his way back to civilization, he will have explored all of the river northwards and we will know where we want to settle most of our cities.
Similarly, if Warrior B finds a peninsula to the west, instead of a landbridge, he will be turning northwards and will alleviate the need for another warrior.
However, if both A & B end up going long in search of info, then we will be left with only poor warrior C to assume the duties of protecting the settlers, the workers and the cities. By then, we will be swarming with barbarians as nobody else will be fogbusting.
I'm really hoping this doesn't come to pass, as we will be very stretched. We should possibly consider an archer at this point if no bronze, simply to help defend our empire!


We need to start naming these warrior for these discussions. This is getting confusing! I suggest famous Explorers for these first couple, so I propose Amundsen the polar explorer (and one of the first documented crossings of the Northwest Passage) for Warrior A.
For Warrior B, how about Burke: an Australian explorer famous for (attempting) to cross the continent on foot. Let's hope our warrior fares better
Warrior C, who will be establishing settlements a little more could be called Columbus.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Well, after second settler, we can get another warrior in one turn, but I prefer invest overflowing into another worker in four turns. Anyone disagreeing? The warrior #3 has enough time to investigate stone site before settling or does people find better to scout north more before returning to stone for protecting the settler?

We definitely need another Worker ready to work at least by the time we have Bronze Working, so it can chop forests as well as improve resource plots. So, please let us build a Worker after the third Warrior.

warrior scouting
...
I think we have to send warriors out to try and meet AI, but maybe the 3rd warrior could be diverted to look at least some of that water.

Agreed. Warrior A can follow the river north via hills on either side and when the river ends move west. Warrior B can explore the Stone site and any area north and east of the river, though mainly north. Warrior C can explore southwestern coast and follow where it goes and when done it can help prevent Barbarian spawning near the border of our culture.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[frogdude]

warrior scouting
I was think more along the lines of scouting the water to the SE,S, and SW when I suggested the scouting plans be changed. There are several tiles that could have seafood that would might change where we place our initial cities.

I think we have to send warriors out to try and meet AI, but maybe the 3rd warrior could be diverted to look at least some of that water.

If southern scouting deemed a priority, then I suggest the following options:

1. Instead of sending Warrior Columbus to the northwest to learn about those surroundings, we could send him on that southerly mission first. I reckon he needs to have about a 6-7 turn headstart on the gem settler to have time to properly scout the southern site and get into position. We may also have to accept an extra turn or so of settler movement in order to minimize risk as we may want the settler to skirt the lake to the south rather than the north to avoid unpleasant surprises.
2. We detour Burke from his due West mission to pick up the southern headland (both grassland hill and the tile to the west of it). I calculate this a 5 turn delay: 8 turns to the deer tile rather than 3.

 

[mabraham]

Apologies for my quietness lately. Other things have been on my plate.

General Warrior objectives in no particular order. The priority of these is up for debate:
1. Scope out peninsula to west
2. Follow landbridge west if it exists
3. Scout out Stone Crab site
4. Follow north west coast / General northerly scouting
5. Fogbust Gems city site
6. Northern fogbusting

7. Explore remaining ocean tiles to SE, S, SW to uncover any hidden seafood that might affect our settling decisions.

Good summary.

I think 4, 1 and 2 are our highest priorities, and accordingly the first warrior should be heading NW for the time being. The earlier we find AIs or conclude we are isolated the better we will be, and NW does this better. Objective 3 only needs to be satisfied to be sure that we want to settle the wheat site rather than the stone site, so a later warrior can take care of that in time for the first settler to pop, before doing whichever of 4 and 6 make sense. The T29 warrior has enough time to do 7 (to the west of clams), then scout seafood south of the wheat site, then do 5 before the settler builds. The later detail will have to vary with what we find to the north and west.

Assuming build strategy B, I think the warrior directions are the only key T20-T30 decisions for Tachy's PPP.

 

[Manco Capac]

We definitely need another Worker ready to work at least by the time we have Bronze Working, so it can chop forests as well as improve resource plots. So, please let us build a Worker after the third Warrior.

Of course!!! I never wanted the contrary.

 

[Manco Capac]

Assuming build strategy B, I think the warrior directions are the only key T20-T30 decisions for Tachy's PPP.

You are right both assumptions. Anyways, I'm done with testing as results are unsatisfying and I was thinking differently for warrior paths, but I let myself convinced after all.

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I would post screenshots, but my screenshot function doesn't work and I use BMP generally speaking.
It ensues big sizes not allowed as attachments. Does somebody have a solution?
What I can do is simply upload the images on MU under an unrecognizable name.

 

[mabraham]

Workers, Settlers and maybe other things:

When we complete Bronze Working, we should strongly consider chopping some Workers (2-4) who in turn can chop Settlers (3-5).

With vast numbers of forests in our capital, a vast number of options become available with the completion of Bronze Working, even if no Copper is found.

We will want to do a lot of serious test games at this point (completion of Bronze Working).

Writing -> chopping a Library -> hiring 2 Scientists (Philosophical trait +100% GPP) -> Great Scientist in short order -> Academy in capital or Gems city is but one possibility.

Mathematics -> Currency:

We should also consider (Writing ->) Mathematics some time in the future which increases chops +50%, but also opens up Currency for an extra trade route plus the option of building Wealth (rather than units/buildings/wonders in some cities) to increase Research % for short term boosts to gain later key technologies several turns earlier. Such as Construction (Catapults, War Elephants with Ivory), Civil Service (Bureaucracy), Calendar (Plantations/even M of M), etc. and can easily be traded for Alphabet, if we find an AI team that has it.

Sun Tzu Wu

Agreed - I see the Mathematics techs being key to strong performance, whether we are isolated or not.

Therefore, I demand that we rename Washington.

OMG_House

Good idea. I prefer a name we'll actually bother typing - and OMG is unique and pithy enough to be useful.

The other possibility that I've seen suggested is that we somehow divide up tasks so that not everyone is duplicating each others work. So like someone is responsible for making the test game, someone else is keeping track of great people generation, someone else is the long term strategy guy, etc.

I note we've largely dropped this idea. I would want to see everyone using their whole experience to contribute to the immediate and long-term planning in all its aspects. However it's somewhat efficient for the people who've started to play the test game keeping it current. I've got the technology for detailed city micro spreadsheets, so happy to do that, etc.

Re: deep Oracle play

We still have time to reconsider our strategy here. However, I think we can reasonably get the Great Lighthouse or the Oracle, but probably not both. This primarily what I was referring to when I said we had to sacrifice for the GLH.

I haven't tried to get both, nor have I just tried to get the Oracle.

The traditional deep oracle plays do not seem as beneficial in this game as some. Since our capital isn't a great commerce capital, the Civil Service slingshot is not as good (and very hard to do successfully since our commerce is so limited)

Oracling construction for catapults or elephants is also limited unless we have a nearby AI that is hiding without scouts.

My impression is the TGH is the stronger play and we pick up the oracle if for some strange reason it goes very late.
And I would rather keep forests for a late Oracle play, rather than a stonehenge chop. (I'm not adverse to building stonehenge, but I think our forests might have better uses)

Agreed TGH looks stronger than Oracle, but don't mind forests chopping Stonehenge to leverage our REX.

My PPP will come after school in 10 hours after this message I guess.

EDIT: I just came back and I will for myself some tests, then around 6-7 PM (GMT-6, forum time), I'll post my PPP. It is possible a rough is slowly coming meanwhile. Just one thing surprise me: the discussion stopped; what happened?

Mark, I am really curious of your plan of fast-rushing lots of wonders, may I ask the save(s)?
I really want to consider your test game. I am sorry for my bad attitude, if ever this is the cause you haven't posted lately.

No problem, just busy. I hope my test game results didn't cause a problem for you, either. I couldn't be sure if you were actually upset or just letting off steam I'm happy to post some saves (edit now attached), but I'm sure it's not valuable for us to commit too much testing time or strategy before we acquire BW.

Also, everyone should get in there and make random comments, even if of a 'this feels right but haven't tested/thought about it in depth' type ones. This is because even though some people have put a lot of analysis into something, it is easy to miss obvious alternatives.

Definitely. I'm good on trees, but less good at seeing the forest.

Speaking of ignorant questions, time for mine. Conquest/Domination doesn't look ultra speedy at the moment, simply because we can't find any opponent, let alone the wizard
If we want to keep Cultural on the table, how do we need to setup our empire ideally? I've never played Cultural victories competitively, so not sure of the best setup.
Is it possible to setup a proper Cultural empire, and still maintain enough of a war machine to crush the wizard?

A classical fast culture game involves an early war or two in order to capture 9-10 city sites and get access to 3+ religions, preferably with the resources for cathedral building multipliers. Nine temples are required in each of three religions to get three cathedrals per legendary city, so a lot of hammers go into missionaries and temples and cathedrals. A GP farm runs pure poly-artist for much of the game (to generate artists for culture bombs - this city may or may not become a legendary one, and normally struggles to farm and build temples & cathedrals), so Caste System is very useful. At least two cities go poly-cottage so that you tech hard out to Music, acquire a cash stockpile, crunch some spreadsheets available on the forums, and switch to 100% culture slider at the right time, bombing the GArtists just as you plan to win. IIRC GAges are not all that useful, but a good way to use a stray GPerson from pool pollution. Some variations go as far as Lib, PPr or Nat. If we're isolated, Astronomy may be required. There are lots of how-to discussions on the forums, but I've never actually run one of these.

For at least the next while, we should probably keep the game aim flexible while we try and find these hidden opps.

Definitely.

 

[mabraham]

I would post screenshots, but my screenshot function doesn't work and I use BMP generally speaking.
It ensues big sizes not allowed as attachments. Does somebody have a solution?
What I can do is simply upload the images on MU under an unrecognizable name.

There are various online tools that will do image format conversion, though IIRC Windows Paint can probably do it also.

 

[Manco Capac]

deleted

 

[Manco Capac]

Tachywaxon's PPP

Build order and city micromanagements:

I am going to follow mabraham's B plan and then at turn 29-30,
I go for a worker after the three warriors and switch the FPH for spices to match BW to Eiffel readiness to chop after improving corn.

• 
  
  B)
• work as for 2; warriors done T20 T26, T29 with 0 overflow at size 3 (4/26)
  

Three explorers with clubs paths:

I follow those paths with some recent variations:

Amundsen (Warrior A) will not go NE but NW at T24.
Burke (Warrior B) will go on SW tile of sugar for landing on sugar.
Other variations will come according to events.

Events and reactions to it:

Each forest or jungle growth will be notified. Even those I noticed outside the BFC, if I notice them.
I will take screenshot of each turn (often satellite view), taking into account demographics and VC screen.
Each critical event will stop my turn-set progression and I will report it for further discussion.
Culture trick will be use each turn in order to accelerate civilization contacts.


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Let me know I forgot something.

Now, I am looking for a Jpeg compressor; I didn't find the way

 

[bcool]

edit: cross post

A classical fast culture game involves an early war or two in order to capture 9-10 city sites and get access to 3+ religions, preferably with the resources for cathedral building multipliers. Nine temples are required in each of three religions to get three cathedrals per legendary city, so a lot of hammers go into missionaries and temples and cathedrals. A GP farm runs pure poly-artist for much of the game (to generate artists for culture bombs - this city may or may not become a legendary one, and normally struggles to farm and build temples & cathedrals), so Caste System is very useful. At least two cities go poly-cottage so that you tech hard out to Music, acquire a cash stockpile, crunch some spreadsheets available on the forums, and switch to 100% culture slider at the right time, bombing the GArtists just as you plan to win. IIRC GAges are not all that useful, but a good way to use a stray GPerson from pool pollution. Some variations go as far as Lib, PPr or Nat. If we're isolated, Astronomy may be required. There are lots of how-to discussions on the forums, but I've never actually run one of these.

Another possibility I've heard of but have never attempted is a sushi corp driven Culture game. I think it might be a bit slower than the traditional strategy, but it is more flexible. We would have to bulb through to astronomy to get to the Sushi tech, and so the approach is much more flexible. And we would have access to a greater number of techs to fight the wizard with if it proves to be necessary.

Quote: Originally Posted by frogdude
General Warrior objectives in no particular order. The priority of these is up for debate:
1. Scope out peninsula to west
2. Follow landbridge west if it exists
3. Scout out Stone Crab site
4. Follow north west coast / General northerly scouting
5. Fogbust Gems city site
6. Northern fogbusting

Quote: Originally Posted by bcool
7. Explore remaining ocean tiles to SE, S, SW to uncover any hidden seafood that might affect our settling decisions.

Good summary.

I think 4, 1 and 2 are our highest priorities, and accordingly the first warrior should be heading NW for the time being. The earlier we find AIs or conclude we are isolated the better we will be, and NW does this better. Objective 3 only needs to be satisfied to be sure that we want to settle the wheat site rather than the stone site, so a later warrior can take care of that in time for the first settler to pop, before doing whichever of 4 and 6 make sense. The T29 warrior has enough time to do 7 (to the west of clams), then scout seafood south of the wheat site, then do 5 before the settler builds. The later detail will have to vary with what we find to the north and west.

Assuming build strategy B, I think the warrior directions are the only key T20-T30 decisions for Tachy's PPP.

This is a departure from frogdude's original suggestion and is more in line with STW's suggestion of following the river NW. I'm okay with sending the first warrior NW rather than NE as frogdude suggested. (I guess this is Amundsen warrior A).

If this was the plan I would assume warrior A (Amundsen) would go more northly leaving warrior B with the responsibility to explore the possible western land bridge goals 1 and 2.

I would rather the T29 warrior (Columbus) look SE near the marble if at all possible to see if there is more seafood near the marble. There are 4 unexplored water tiles near the marble. There already is crabs+marble+ 1 or 2 more seafood makes a strong site assuming TGH.

 

[bcool]

More scouting options based on recent feedback by mabraham and STW and myself.

I think this screenshot shows an alternative scouting plan

 

[bcool]

Build order and city micromanagements:

I am going to follow mabraham's B plan and then at turn 29-30,
I go for a worker after the three warriors and switch the FPH for spices to match BW to Eiffel readiness to chop after improving corn.

Quote:B)
work as for 2; warriors done T20 T26, T29 with 0 overflow at size 3 (4/26)

When I was testing it wasn't clear to me what the tile use was to get a warrior T26 and T29, can you elaborate on what his plan B is? I didn't find these details on his original post, or I couldn't understand it.

Don't forget to save the game each turn (since they don't want us to use autosave expect for crash recovery)
I would also make note of the top 5 cities for interesting developments.

You probably only have to look at the cultural view once our warriors start defogging new tiles.

What do you consider a critical event that would cause you to stop? I would imagine, losing another warrior, finding an AI.

I assume you will be moving the warriors defensively and will stop only if there are multiple reasonable approaches to a barbarian threat. Otherwise we trust you to pick your battles.

 

[frogdude]

This is a departure from frogdude's original suggestion and is more in line with STW's suggestion of following the river NW. I'm okay with sending the first warrior NW rather than NE as frogdude suggested. (I guess this is Amundsen warrior A).

If this was the plan I would assume warrior A (Amundsen) would go more northly leaving warrior B with the responsibility to explore the possible western land bridge goals 1 and 2.

Sending Amundsen NW does make some sense. There is more likelyhood of finding something interesting (an AI or a landbridge for instance) northwest than there is NE, and as mabraham pointed out, we don't have to do much exploring past the stone to find out where to place that city properly. Whatever warrior ends up escorting the settler for that city can do that mission.

I would rather the T29 warrior (Columbus) look SE near the marble if at all possible to see if there is more seafood near the marble. There are 4 unexplored water tiles near the marble. There already is crabs+marble+ 1 or 2 more seafood makes a strong site assuming TGH.

My only concern about this is that after Columbus heads back there, he may not have time to get back into position to escort settler.
What's the ETA on the 1st settler? I've lost track of the build plan

We may be faced with a choice of 'check out marble site' and 'check out stone site'. Both have chances of picking up extra stuff, although stone has more 'unknowns' so is more likely to have more.

Cross Post with bcool: We agree Although my question above with Columbus still stands. I've lost track with the ETA of the settler

 

[bcool]

I believe with the 2nd worker after the 3 warriors and chopping the settlers come out T40? and T44? Something like that.

It would give Columbus time to either check out the marble area and then head back to either the stone, crab site or to the wheat/gems/deer site.

 

[Manco Capac]

Cross Post with bcool: We agree Although my question above with Columbus still stands. I've lost track with the ETA of the settler

He will arrive in time if the second settler is the one used for stone city. I was testing stuff like that when taking different decisions from widely accepted warrior paths.

 

[Manco Capac]

I believe with the 2nd worker after the 3 warriors and chopping the settlers come out T40? T39 and T44? Something like that.

fixed.

 

[bcool]

Random thought

How does espionage against a team work as a single player?

Is the steal technology mission cost based off the cost to research the tech ourselves or is it based off the cost for the team we are stealing it from?

If it is our cost, then I think espionage might be a very strong play in this type of game, making a great spy and the great wall something to strongly consider.

If we steal technologies from one team at our cost, then sell them to other teams at their cost we could really pull ahead.