SGOTM 14 - Spooks

[Yilar]

We should win within 30-40 turns, there is no need to do granaries or other useless crap. At this point we should focus on getting our gpt up so we can rush settlers on the island cities, wether they are foreign or native does not really matter imo. We should not disband our captured cities. If we do lose a few cities to culture conv, it will be easier take them back than disbanding and rebuilding.

 

[Paul#42]

30-40 turns?
Than you are certainly right, no use in wasting time building crap like that.
That would require to take every island in 3-4 turns, 5 at most.
That would take some planning, we should determine (and maintain) the optimal routes and landing spots.

Prepare to plant harbor towns to optimize those routes.

I had already published a first draft for such a plan. Maybe anyone revises that or drafts a new one?

If we get carried away and attack the next after we finished the current, we will take much too long.

We should also calculate the needed tiles and how large the islands are so we can spare some of the more difficult (Rome ).

 

[Più Freddo]

We should win within 30-40 turns

Well, klarius is taking off like a rocket and will at this rate reach domination (1600 tiles) around turn 170 (550 AD). That's 52 turn from now. But at our current date, we're ahead. Let's hope we can beat this date.

Let's try to do less than 50 turns.

Yilar said:

• there is no need to do granaries or other useless crap
• we should focus on getting our gpt up
• so we can rush settlers on the island cities
• whether they are foreign or native does not really matter
• We should not disband our captured cities
• If we do lose a few cities to culture conv, it will be easier take them back than disbanding and rebuilding

I couldn't have said it better myself! I fully agree to all six points.

 

[Andronicus]

My estimate was we should finish in more like 70 turns, perhaps 50-60 at the fastest. edit - hopefully I am being overly conservative

Agree our focus should be on knights to take cities, galleys to transport them there, with planning of settlers to fill in space plus last min culture rush still a little way off.

btw Paul, I tried looking at your map of invasion routes in post 416, but all I got was an error message - address could not be found.

 

[Paul#42]

Oh. I'll try to update and upload it again.

 

[ControlFreak]

I can't believe the ....-up with the Rome-Aztec deal. You don't ever let these babies expire! What's so difficult cancelling the Alliance with Rome, declaring war on Rome, and making peace with the Aztecs tied to a reversed Alliance!? How could you ever have "enough!" or "too much" happiness!?

markh specifically requested help with diplomacy and we definitely did not spell out how to accomplish what needed to happen. Additionally, alliances can be constraining if we're trying to keep our MA Rep intact. Since either Rome or the Aztecs could be a jumping off point from the Celts continent, why would we need to jeopardize our rep or constrain our ability to wage war with either of these two civs when happiness is not an issue? Not that I'm saying it couldn't have been handled better, just that the comment seem a bit harse IMHO.

Yilar said:

• there is no need to do granaries or other useless crap
• we should focus on getting our gpt up
• so we can rush settlers on the island cities
• whether they are foreign or native does not really matter
• We should not disband our captured cities
• If we do lose a few cities to culture conv, it will be easier take them back than disbanding and rebuilding

I couldn't have said it better myself! I fully agree to all six points.

I agree with these also. Rushing non-native settlers from captured towns is fine if they are going to be prisons. Even if they're not, will be having units streaming through many of the continents to retake flipped towns.

 

[Yilar]

I agree with these also. Rushing non-native settlers from captured towns is fine if they are going to be prisons. Even if they're not, will be having units streaming through many of the continents to retake flipped towns.

To get from point A to point B we are probably gonna have to pass by some of these cities anyway. Yes, we may lose a few cities, but if we are to rebuilding everything, we are gonna be spending a lot more turns, than we would recapturing them. The primary reason for cult conv is capital distance. If we just put the enemies far enough away from their original cities the chance of them flipping is gonna be rather low. That's what I remember reading (not 100% sure).

 

[Paul#42]

So, I uploaded the map again for discussion. I hope it works this time.
I did not use the most recent map, sorry.

Spoiler :

We need to put our targets into a sequence and we also need to count the domination tiles to find out which islands we may spare...

 

[denyd]

Turn 4 – 110 BC (continued)
Trade Monarchy + Incense to Mongols for Wool (in case we have war with Mayans
Ask Mayans to leave and he says no problem, but he’s still there
40g hurries a galley in ZZ
Iron is disconnected and pike builds switch to horsemen
Before ending the turn – I spend about 100g to investigate 3 Celtic cities and see a too may GS for 10 Knights

Without anything else to eat up units, I'd expect another 2-3 GS & at least 10 archers and numerous spearmen. I could probably take Alesia, but I'm not sure if I could get reinforcements there before they got wiped out.

Options:
1. Change plan and attack America
2. Go ahead and hope the Knights can hold on until reinforcements
3. Return home and wait for more units
4. Sign ROP with Celts to land and setup for a single strike to cripple them

There are 3 Knights heading for the west coast and another 4-5 will be done in 2-3 turns, but I don't have enough galleys to carry them.

I've also MM'd our cities and changed the builds, please add any suggestions to how to improve (or change) what I've done.

 

[ControlFreak]

So, I uploaded the map again for discussion. I hope it works this time.We need to put our targets into a sequence and we also need to count the domination tiles to find out which islands we may spare...

Works for me and thanks for starting this.I don't have time to make my own map at this point so bear with me and my comments.The biggest factor at the moment is the availablility and location of galleys.. . Each crossing point on your map is going to need approximately 10 galleys present for the initial crossing and enough galleys left behind to forward the reinforcements.. . I think this will bog us down logistically as we branch out because the number of galleys required increases geometrically.What I was proposing was two phases:

Phase 1 uses the mainland as a base of operations to attack in two theatres:

Near West (From HH/Russian area using the Celtic Fleet about 10 galleys)

• Celts - EDIT maybe hold off on them based on denyd and go straigt for ...
• Japan
• Rome

Near East (From Zulu area using the French Fleet about 10 galleys)

• France
• Korea (they should become prison central)
• Germany
• Maya

Phase 2 uses conquered continent as a base of operations to attack in two "far" theatres while cleaning up near theatres:

Near West (From HH/Russian using new Roma Fleet about 10-20 galleys)

• Primary function, supply Rome with troops
• Clean up Americans
• Maintain Celts
• Maintain Japan

Far West (From Rome using old Celtic Fleet about 10 galleys)

• Sumerians (they have two prision islands)
• Aztecs
• Hittites
• Egypt
• Greece

Near East (From Zulu area using new German Fleet about 10-20 galleys)

• Primary function, supply Germany with troops
• Inca
• India

Far East (From Germany using old French Fleet about 10 galleys)

• Mongols
• Maya
• China
• Clean up

 

[Più Freddo]

Not that I'm saying it couldn't have been handled better, just that the comment seem a bit harse IMHO.

OK, sorry about that. Looking at the save from 190 AD I can also see, that the situation was misrepresented in the comments. The Aztec war can be terminated at will and they will throw in an Alliance against Rome.

Now, since only Rome of all alien tribes has an average military to us, I fail to see the point in not making peace with Rome for an Alliance agains Aztecs. We should leave Rome alone. So I guess it's best to leave things as they are at the moment.

 

[Più Freddo]

Rome

I like the plan except for this detail. Why waste resources on Rome, who has the strongest military of all alien tribes? We can work our way into Rome in the end game, when Knights from our core wouldn't reach the far-away frontlines before Domination. It would not be Sun Tzu to attack them now.

In general, I see a lot of land and weak military in the east. If we send equally strong forces either way, we will gain more land in the east. But I guess the Galleys force us to go both ways from the beginning.

I favour ROP against Celts and/or America and then off to Greece. Leave the south-west corner for now since Rome is so strong. It also has only little territory.

 

[ControlFreak]

Yes, I think the plan can be tweaked based on specific strengths and weaknesses of the civ living on the base of operation continent. I was strictly proposing on geography so far. The main idea is that we need a pocket where the forward fleet can attack multiple continents from, and we need a continent that is easily resupplied from the mainland and can feed the forward fleet in the pocket. The Mayan-Sumerian sea is such a pocket. The roman-celtic-greek sea is another such pocket. I agree that Celts to Greece and Germany to Sumeria might be a better first approach. There may be other combinations that take advantage of the weakest civs first.

EDIT: I just notices that Germany has volcanos off it's southern tip, so we need to be careful about the jumping off point for the troops.

I also think Korea is very important because it makes the nicest off-mainland prison. Sumeria is next important because they have island prisons.

 

[Andronicus]

Not sure why the concern over attacking Celts - their GS's defend no better than spears (except our knights are deprived of retreat).
They dont have many yet, only Entremont has any capicity to make more during the attack and that is only 1 every 4 turns.
I suggest we get rop, land and rop rape them.
Make sure they have democracy if still in despotism so they cant whip units.
Also get all other rop agreements prior to rop abuse as it will be our last chance.
Plus gift Celts their retreat if not done already.
If we aim to take out Entremont in the first turn (it will only have 5 spears and a gallic), I suspect we will meet little resistance from the other small towns.

 

[Paul#42]

I'd also attack them rather now than later.
If we rop-rape them (pro), we should sign rop with some others we'd like to invade soon.

 

[Andronicus]

I've also MM'd our cities and changed the builds, please add any suggestions to how to improve (or change) what I've done.

MM comments
Had time for just a quick cycle through of all cities (there may be errors so just use this as guide)
CC - has 9 food in box making 10spt - s/r worker to get 10 shields in box then back to HM
Badajoz - hire a taxman, still grows in 1
Mecca - work highest food tiles (unfortunately workers wont complete irrigation project for 2 turns so cant get to improve rate of growth
Zimbabwe - ? switch to settler
M.... (cant read my scribble) - ? switch to worker (slave)
CB - wont grow in time for settler - can use irr olives from SM to speed growth (and SM use irr fp)
StP - switch to worker, hire a taxman
YY - ? should build rax / horses
Nov - get rid of scientist, use the 3fpt tiles and hire a taxman
PP - as per YY
XX - switch to horses (has a rax)
MM - ? add workers - cant grow but there are nearby unused tiles
FF - why irrigating plains when cant grow beyond size 6 (actually if add workers to MM, MM could work this and other tiles and give mined hill to FF)
UoU - work high food tiles
Yakutsk - why are we irrigating desert tiles in corrupt area (these tiles should never be worked, better job for workers to irr grassland so can hire more taxmen / rush settlers)
Vlad -> galley

What is the plan for the forest chop near SS? (at present it goes to GG but doesnt speed knight build and reduces SS from 15spt). I recommend stopping the chop and keep SS on 15spt.

 

[Andronicus]

Some more comments from a closer look at the save

We still need embassies with 6 or 7 civs - I make it about 530g for those we are not at war with - the other is the Incans. I suggest peace with Incans (they give gold), get embassy and rop (many will pay us for rop) whilst we are still able to. We should get all rops, if possible, for civs we may invade in next 20 turns

Tough nuts, some of we may miss
Romans are obvious case as the strongest AI - Legionaries are a PITA
Any civ that gets guns and has salt (only Russia and Persia are able to research guns at present and Cathy wont be a risk)
AI with 3 defence units (other than Romans) - Greek, Persia, Germans, Mongols, Sumerians
Japanese or Indians if they get chivalry (Japs currently lack feud, Indians are very backward and should not reach middle ages)

AI which could get feud soon (so perhaps we should prioritise fighting earlier) - Egypt, China, Japan, Iroquois, France, Hittites, Maya, Incans (although French lack iron - bet they have salt though - no chance they will get there)

So summing this up, my thoughts
France -> Inca -> Iroq ASAP with galleys already in place (need to get sufficient knights to east coast)
Celts -> Americans (because troops in place already)
Western force can then either -> Greece - tougher battle, more difficult to re-supply) or join a southern force -> Japan -> Persia -> Aztecs -> Hittites (ignoring Romans)
3rd force SE -> Korea -> India -> Maya -> China

 

[markh]

[*]I can't believe the ....-up with the Rome-Aztec deal. You don't ever let these babies expire! What's so difficult cancelling the Alliance with Rome, declaring war on Rome, and making peace with the Aztecs tied to a reversed Alliance!? How could you ever have "enough!" or "too much" happiness!?[/LIST]

It was suggested to let the deal expire and nobody objected, so I did it. Why the .... didn't you suggest to renegotiate that deal ?

 

[Più Freddo]

Why the .... didn't you suggest to renegotiate that deal?

My comment wasn't directed to you as much as to the suggestions in question. I read them only after you had already played, and that is my own fault.

I have, though, described at least once in this thread how these deals should be renegotiated.

 

[Paul#42]

Ho-ho guys, settle that issue now.
No big harm done. Mark needs precise orders if it's not for fighting an enemy to the bone.

Denyd?

You're still out there?
Anything you need / miss to play on?